When Should A Mod Be Vanilla-Compatible?

[Domestic-Weirdo]

I've been developing a vanilla Doom II mod and sharing its progress on a forum over the past several months. The project is based upon a series that's popular in the community and it aims to make significant changes to the weapon selection with the addition of some new monsters. Feedback, for the most part, has been positive but, occasionally, I get comments from users strongly advising me to switch over to GZDoom due to how advanced it is. 

 

I don't have any reservations about using source ports like GZDoom but I admit that my familiarity with them, especially in terms of modding, is pretty lacking. Part of the reason I started making Doom mods in the first place was because I was impressed with what people had been doing with just vanilla tricks and DeHacked. That was the side of Doom modding that I originally wanted to get into and read up on. With this mod nearing completion, I'm wondering if I limited my skillset and this mod's appeal by sticking to vanilla Doom.

 

I have conflicting feelings about this topic as I do want to address those concerns in some way but that would probably mean overhauling the mod in order to so. Since this mod is already so close to being done, I don't see changing ports as a viable option at this point. The only solutions I can think of is either creating follow-ups that use things like GZDoom and Decorate or, if it's possible, somehow adding exclusive features for modern source ports.

 

There is also a part of me that can't help but be a little frustrated by these requests. Outside of this community, it seems like the majority of Doom mods that the general public talks about anymore are things like Brutal Doom and Eviternity. In recent times, Sigil has been one of the few (limit-removing) vanilla mods that generated as much discussion and that was mainly because John Romero designed it. I get the feeling that plenty of people dismiss vanilla mods for their limitations rather than appreciating the creativity that goes into working around them.

 

On the other hand, I fully understand why I get asked to switch over to other source ports. The sheer complexity and number of possibilities granted by ZDoom ports is incredibly immense. It has allowed many projects to adopt identities more distinct from Doom by taking advantage of those features. It's arguably to the point where the capability of some modern Doom mods, to an extent, are comparable to the games being developed now. Considering the mod's source material has plenty of fans, I know these comments are meant as constructive criticisms that want to see it live up to the expectations that naturally come with it.

 

Does anyone here ever feel this way about vanilla modding? What are some ways to deal with this issue? 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Domestic-Weirdo

[Lippeth]

I think that a vanilla compatible mod should only break out of its bean pod if there is a feature you want to add that can only be achieved in a more advanced engine, and you are unwilling to continue without that feature.

 

Player feedback is great and should generally be taken seriously, but it shouldn't sway the overall vision for your project, and you're guaranteed to alienate somebody no matter what you choose so it's best to focus on the most important goals to you. If one of its gimmicks is that it runs in DOS, suddenly making it GZDoom only might make the project seem a bit unfocused, but adding features that only go noticed when playing GZDoom and don't affect compatibility can be cool. If you're not that familiar with modding for GZDoom then it really depends on your amount of overall interest and free time. There's also nothing wrong with planning to make a separate version in the future targeting different ports.

 

Even though I've made several gameplay mods over the years, they've all targeted the ZDooms because Decorate and ZScript were more fun at the time and I can usually express an idea accurately enough using them, but I do enjoy playing vanilla compatible wads and mods partly because my own DeHackEd skills are really lame and it's cool to see what is still possible.

[Kinsie]

You should make mods for the ports and standards that you enjoy working with, whether that be Vanilla, Boom, GZDoom, UDMF, ZDaemon, whatever the hell. This is a hobby, you're doing it for fun! And if doing DOS-ass Vanilla stuff is what you find fun, then keep persuing it, damn the haters.

 

In addition, if your mod is already near completion, I'd say avoid doing a Duke Nukem Forever and finish it off according to your current vision and objectives. After that, you can consider sequels or enhanced editions or whole new projects using other standards if you still want to scratch that itch.

[Jayextee]

IMO vanilla-targeting (and by this, I mean not limit-removing) WADs are every bit as legit as any other. To me personally, the limitations and overcoming them are a big part of the appeal; there is a mountain here, I must climb it - and so on. The idea of using more-advanced engine features to open up possibilities to the nigh-endless appeals a hell of a lot less.

[Murdoch]

I personally couldn't care less about vanilla compatibility. I care if it's good enough. It's your mod. Use whichever ports let you take it where you want it to go.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Murdoch

[Stupid Bunny]

Vanilla mods/wads are awesome.  I'm always way more mystified by the magic people can pull off within the strict limits of the vanilla engine.  I don't know who is trying to make you change map formats or why but I promise you'll find plenty of people who will be fired up about another cool vanilla mod (@Doomkid, probably, for example)

 

It might sound like there's an echo in here but seriously you should make your project what you want it to be, in full confidence that (a) you are enjoying the process and the product and (b) you will find other people who love it.  Remember that pleasing 100% of the people who play your WAD should never be the goal, because you're likely to lose sight of what you want and end up watering down your vision.  

[Graf Zahl]

Adding features for the sake of adding features won't make any map better - we got tons of bad examples for that all over /idgames.

What ultimately counts is not what engine a map was made for but that it looks and plays well.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

A mod should be vanilla compatible if you (the creator) wants it to be. If dehacked is what you favour, by all means, do that. If the scope of your mod exceeds dehacked possibilities, you either scale back or use more advanced port. Ideally not switching mid-production. 

Bare in mind development hell. Have an idea for what your want to make, and stick to it. Work on it until it's done, and then release. As soon as you begin to wonder "maybe gzdoom will be better for this because of all the features but I'd have to learn everything and redo all the work I've already done.." that's a beginning of big trouble. 

People aren't making demands here, they're not paying customers, and you're not trying to sell them a product. You do it because you want to. You do it because you have a vision. So you do it the way you want. Be selective in the feedback you receive, not everything is to be considered. 

Vanilla mods are great, gzdoom mods are also great. 

[DavidN]

A mod should be vanilla compatible when the author wants it to be vanilla compatible! I love the features made possible by extended ports like GZDoom, but if you want to stay within the bounds of vanilla and it works for you, nobody can tell you not to. (I’m eternally impressed by how much people can squeeze out of it)

[magicsofa]

I'm pretty sure there was a poll a couple months ago that showed a nearly 50/50 split on people's preference toward advanced mods vs vanilla, with many people being willing to play both.

One thing that I think some people "just don't get" is the attitude of squeezing every drop out of the original game. For them, the magic of being able to run your mod in DOS is just not there, and all they can see is you digging with a trowel while a tractor sits nearby. From that perspective, UDMF and ZScript are the only choice.

Just ignore them. As you can see most people will just encourage you to create with the medium that you want to, and focus on turning your vision into a solid product, rather than a bag of features. Especially if you are already close to completion. Honestly the most important skills, in my opinion, are overall design, and actually being able to finish a thing. Some of those naysayers could be expert modders who are just jaded from all the hours they spent fiddling with 3d floor hacks in order to make a stupid hallway over another stupid, boring hallway. Or, that's as far as they ever got with their megaproject. Just say thank you very much for the advice, and move on.

[ChopBlock223]

9 hours ago, Domestic-Weirdo said:

Since this mod is already so close to being done, I don't see changing ports as a viable option at this point. The only solutions I can think of is either creating follow-ups that use things like GZDoom and Decorate or, if it's possible, somehow adding exclusive features for modern source ports.

I think that this could be the best approach for your situation.

 

Regardless of your choice, complete your Vanilla project as is, then consider either making a special GzDoom version, or if you're up for it and you think it would be cool to try out, outright start on a sequel which is made around GzDoom's features.

 

Perhaps you're very attracted to working within the limits of the original .exe (and there are some legendary projects still fondly remembered which did exactly that, such as Batman Doom, which went beyond what people thought possible), but doing stuff in GzDoom also lets you do a LOT, and much of the time it's actually quite fun to work with (at least for me).

 

Vanilla mods definitely still get respected in the 2020s (even if maybe not by the average gamer journo that only knows Brutal Doom), especially those which do stuff the layman may not expect that vanilla can do, yet more those which manage to push the envelope.

[StodgyAyatollah]

Vanilla can be restricting in some regards but also allows more people access to you're wad. I think a good stance to take would be simply looking at the intent of the project then choosing the format that is least restrictive to players that can achieve those results. Essentially anything that can be done vanilla ideally should be because virtually every player will have access to it regardless of which source port they use. If vanilla cannot achieve what you require then work you're way up the chain. Something like vanilla>limit-removing>boom>mbf>udmf. Making stuff that requires the use of zdoom ports but could easily be done vanilla is a very short-sighted thing a lot of people do. 

[Doomy__Doom]

Plenty has been said on "do what you like" and "changing tools midway is maybe not the best idea" matter, so I'll stop here:

12 hours ago, Domestic-Weirdo said:

Outside of this community, it seems like the majority of Doom mods that the general public talks about anymore are things like Brutal Doom and Eviternity.

Even these two things casually put in one sentence are built on vastly different toolsets - Eviternity is MBF-compatible, which is a far cry from *Zdoom as far as "advancedness" goes. Doom compatibility world isn't black and white, "pure vanilla vs super advanced" situation - there are quite a few feature sets that can be targeted inbetween. And, most importantly, each of them has an audience.

 

It's definitely worth learning this and that about different options to decide what fits your vision better, but ultimately - whichever target you pick, you'll probably find some people enjoying it because of the featureset, some people enjoying regardless of featureset and some refusing to touch that featureset. Which is why, I guess, we circle back to "do what you like, can't please everyone".

 

edit: I guess it's also worth mentioning that the concept of "advanced source port" isn't entirely unified either.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Doomy__Doom

[Stabbey]

When the idea behind the mod is simple enough that it is compatible with vanilla without compromising the integrity or spirit of the mod. That's it. That's the only time you should worry about making the mod vanilla-compatible.

 

If the mod is too complicated to do or would require too much excessive effort to get it done in vanilla, then don't worry about making the mod vanilla-compatible.

 

(EDIT: And I'm saying this as an mapper who uses limit-removing ports, but tries to design based around standard/enhanced line actions because that's personally more interesting than simply scripting.)

Edited September 19, 2022 by Stabbey