How much detail do you put into your architecture?

[yakfak]

I change detailing style every time I start another map. sometimes there's only functional detail, eg, the results of a set of weirdly-arranged walkable platforms can look interesting from some angles, in something like ztheresa.wad or zzsketch. other times like in Wealth is Worthless it's the whole point of the exercise. mostly I just do shadows and interesting overhangs. but I will say I've tanked my own patience with several maps by adding early detail, hitting like 15k lines and having my computer start screaming at me for having such bad priorities

[ZethXM]

I got way into detailing on my first map because the theme let me design a bunch of cool widgets, but this map I'm working on has been a lot tougher to detail out so far.  I'm not too good at micro or doomcute, and static detail just doesn't hold my attention as well as machinery.

 

Regarding consistency:  I think there's something to be said for varying levels of detail done deliberately to draw the player's eye where you want them to go.

[Misty]

For me, textures are already detail, so I don't hang up much for them - I mostly rely on architecture and clean textures alignment to make my levels work. 

[Stupid Bunny]

8 hours ago, Noiser said:

macro architecture > micro detail

 

I'd say I fall pretty squarely into this camp most of the time.  This is partly because, as you say, I find fine detailing exhausting to implement, but honestly it's also because micro details usually make the map look cluttered to me.  This may be partly down to me just not being good at detailing, but, you know, there's a reason this is my favorite building in New York City.  It doesn't help that I like doing lots of stuff with moving floors and ceilings and steps and that it's a lot harder to make a funky transforming map when there's painstaking inlay in every wall.

 

At any rate I prefer to try and get the maximum possible richness out of the fewest possible linedefs, and a lot of this is made possible by the diversity and density of the textures in Doom.  It's not that I don't like to decorate at all, of course, but the decorations tend to be larger, deeper insets and ceiling vaults and pillars and the like which effectively break up the space without needing more than a few sectors.  I also like some Doomcute and little scenebuilding flourishes here and there, enough to tell a story beyond "it's a place where you have to kill demons".

Edited October 11, 2022 by Stupid Bunny

[Deadwing]

More than I would want. One thing that helped a lot with detailing for me is to create more interesting ceiling structures, while with the walls itself I don't try to have too much layers. Big textures also do help a lot making things less dull, which allow you to create a lot of "vertical detailing" without needing to create a lot of sectors..

 

In Peaved T-40 pics, for example, I would definitely look for the ceiling so they would match the level of detailing with the doors. One hack that always work for indoors enviroments is to use a pitch black texture and add a gradient texture surrouding it to create a smooth transition haha

 

I do find really hard to deal with architecture and detailing, though, and it's something I'd like to improve in future works.

[Shanoa]

Hmm... I haven't mapped nearly enough to tell you, to be honest. That said, looking at my latest WIP for Heretic, i've done more detailing than I ever did with my...last 2 released levels, by my standard at least. (no don't go look them up on here)

 

Although, saying that, I also began doing detailing where I go into 8, 4 sometimes 1 grid size. I mean, players will just zoom through without noticing yet I still do that because it's fun to just plop down some lines. If anything I'd like to be much better with lighting before architectural detailing.

 

2 hours ago, Thelokk said:

I detail every bloody corner, it's just the way I am

 

"Just one more vertice here..." -repeat 500 times-"

Edited October 11, 2022 by Shanoa

[Dexiaz]

14 hours ago, Peaved T-40 said:

I guess my question is, where do you draw the line and how much time are you willing to spend on one map?

 

As much as I can handle mentally. If I'm getting really tired, I stop. I think it's the best solution for you. The Absolute Perfection is unreachable, but you can work on this path as much as you have desire for doing this.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

One reason I love to map for vanilla is that it lets me know when to stop. 

 

I just wanna say that for any beginning mapper it's super important to make a ton of maps to get a hang of what a good vs bad architecture feels like when there's monsters everywhere. What a good vs bad encounter setup it. That architecture and gameplay are inseparable. When you're making the architecture, you're already making gameplay, you don't add that later. Monsters and pickups are just as important part of it all as the layout. 

 

Mapping is like drawing. You learn by doing, and you need to make lots and lots of rough sketches before it makes any sense to attempt making a masterpiece. 

[thiccyosh]

Ultimate Doom Builder trembles in fear when I make a new map in limit removing Doom 2 format. 

[enigma101]

I like to make the architecture detailed when I think the map would benefit from it, but don't go overboard just for the sake of it looking cool.

[Remilia Scarlet]

It depends on what my aim is, and the answer isn't exactly straightforward.  But the tl;dr is: If my aim is to create something visually interesting, I'll probably spend 1/3rd to 1/2 of the time on detailing.  Otherwise 1/4 to 1/3 of the time.  And anymore, I usually prefer for performance to not be a limiting factor when it comes to playing my maps, so I don't like to go too heavy on details that add very little to the scene.

 

The way I map, I work on roughly 2-3 areas at a time.  I'll block them out, test them for gameplay, tweak it to no end, and test it some more.  Once it's good, I go back and mostly detail that area.  Then, when the map is nearly finished, I go back and polish the detail in all of the areas.  So it isn't like I'm doing ALL of my detailing at once.  I also usually like it when people don't need a beefy computer just to play my maps (relevant to engine choice), so I'll often skip out on small details.  Not always, sometimes a scene works better with the small details, but not usually.  You can still get visually interesting scenes with lower detail.  "Buy new hardware" is a shit response.

I also probably don't detail like most people.  I don't like using curves (I have never once used the curve tool; curves look horribly cheap in Doom IMO, and they can be funky with respect to player movment), and instead prefer blocky structures, trim, panels of textures, and height variations.  Basically, fewer angles/vertices, more variation.  I also try to use light as part of my detailing since it provides good visual contrast and cues (especially in an advanced engine, but in vanilla as well).  My highly detailed maps usually don't go above 4500 sectors.

And detail should never impede player movement or combat.  I mean, it's Doom, and these are the bread and butter of its feel.

But overall, I think detailing should always come second.  Get the map (or section of the map) feeling proper first, then detail enough for it to be interesting, but not so much that it hurts performance for lower end players.  After all, Doom is about combat and movement.



The geometry in this shot is quite blocky, and that's on purpose.  The pillars have eight sides , the walls are quite square/angular, and there isn't any curvy surfaces.  It's all a bit height variation, splitting walls/floors up with trim and panels, using lighting to create variations across plain surfaces, and some pops of color.  The textures add a lot as well, and I try to break them up often.  But if you look at it in the editor, there isn't a lot going on in that room side from some extra lines due to overlapping floor/ceiling details.  Some of the two-sided lines are there just to keep players from getting caught on things, and there's some 3D floors, but that's about it.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Remilia Scarlet

[Sonikkumania]

I don't really go into super detail, so far - but I also tend to somewhat detailed areas and details. So you could say I have a balance, a middle point.

 

Though I'd like to improve in creating more detail in mapping 8)

[magicsofa]

Another lemming here going off the vanilla cliff... Having a limited amount of sector detail available is a really good exercise, it helps me to separate what I need from what I could. It also encourages getting the most out of your sectors, smart use of textures and, of course, prevents me from spending too many hours on minutia...

That said, I do tend to put in enough detail to be approaching the visplane limit in most areas, often using midtextures to cheat the limit a bit, and sometimes shrugging when I realize there's a drawsegs overflow because nobody will notice right?

[Krankebok]

Sometimes i put very much detail in my maps.

[Peaved T-40]

15 hours ago, Thelokk said:

That door is rad but now I expect that level of detail throughout, and you better not skimp :)

 

 

Thanks, and I'm trying to. it's why it's taking me like 2 months to finish

[Peaved T-40]

13 hours ago, Deadwing said:

In Peaved T-40 pics, for example, I would definitely look for the ceiling so they would match the level of detailing with the doors.

 

Oh, trust me, i've done something interesting with the ceiling 

[Egregor]

2 hours ago, Krankebok said:

Sometimes i put very much detail in my maps.

Damn dude! Detailing so good I can recognize the synths: That's a Roland TB-303 on the right for sure. Above it a Korg Samples and some type of 808? The red one on the left is some type of Nord, the blue one is a Novation Mini-Nova. The others are maybe an Arturia Keystep and maybe a Korg Bass Station? Detail done RIGHT. It's funny how the keyboard is still like 8 massive keys and some halvies though...

Edited October 11, 2022 by Egregor

[Peaved T-40]

10 hours ago, Remilia Scarlet said:

I don't like using curves (I have never once used the curve tool; curves look horribly cheap in Doom IMO, and they can be funky with respect to player movment), and instead prefer blocky structures, trim, panels of textures, and height variations.  

 

I agree with this. I like the chunky look you get from straight lines. it also makes it easier to draw more realistic lighting. You can easily get a volumetric look when you're lighting around a 90 degree corner.

[Krankebok]

2 hours ago, Egregor said:

Damn dude! Detailing so good I can recognize the synths: That's a Roland TB-303 on the right for sure. Above it a Korg Samples and some type of 808? The red one on the left is some type of Nord, the blue one is a Novation Mini-Nova. The others are maybe an Arturia Keystep and maybe a Korg Bass Station? Detail done RIGHT. It's funny how the keyboard is still like 8 massive keys and some halvies though...

Thanks man! You have it almost right! That little silver box on the right is indeed the tb303 with right of the a roland d50 and above the tr909 and tr808 indeed and you can see a little from a behringer vc340. On the left table the red one is indeed a nord lead 2, that blue one is a jp8000, that one right near the nord a microkorg and right near the jp8000 is a roland sh101. I had an empty room in my technocity map so i decided to put in my studio with a few revenants guarding my gear xD

[PineFresh]

Reminds me of detail.wad:

...but yours is more detailed I think.

[SMG_Man]

I'm fairly reserved when it comes to the level of detail in my maps. I eschew "doom-cute" design and go for a more close to the original's aesthetic, even when making maps for GZDoom. I'll use 3D floors and Portals to make more complex level designs, but I avoid using slopes and transparent/swimmable liquids, and overall keep the underlying geometry fairly simple; As impressively built as maps like those found in KDiZD are, it's not a style I'm interested in emulating. As for the maps I make in the original format, more often than not I end up staying within vanilla limits even when I'm explicitly making a "limit-removing" map.

[Kristian Nebula]

6 hours ago, Krankebok said:

Thanks man! You have it almost right! That little silver box on the right is indeed the tb303 with right of the a roland d50 and above the tr909 and tr808 indeed and you can see a little from a behringer vc340. On the left table the red one is indeed a nord lead 2, that blue one is a jp8000, that one right near the nord a microkorg and right near the jp8000 is a roland sh101. I had an empty room in my technocity map so i decided to put in my studio with a few revenants guarding my gear xD

 I thought I recognized them tb-303, tr-808 & 909, sh-101, nord lead 2, jp-8000 :) Great stuff!! :D

[Stabbey]

On 10/10/2022 at 5:25 PM, Peaved T-40 said:

 

 

This is a tangent to the original post, but those FLAT22's indicate that's active space, not void. I would normally expect voidspace to go on the sides of doors. If only because doors rise up to 4 units below the lowest ceiling and need that kind of space for them to work properly. It looks like you've made those sectors. Is there a reason for that?

 

I'm asking because your OP sounds like you're new to creating maps.

[poisonhead]

21 hours ago, Krankebok said:

Sometimes i put very much detail in my maps.

 

Friggin' awesome! I'm jealous. Wish I had the nerves to doomify every instrument I have. But I would've made better keyboard and mouse :) Anyway one of the best Doom pics ever and I have to ask are you willing to share or do you wanna keep these treasures to yourself?

 

Has anyone else made musical instruments to Doom? I quickly and dirtily have a few flats/textures of my old mixer and my previous map had some instruments as sprites besides one keyboard made from sectors and flat. It'd be nice to see some satanic organ in some map let alone be able to play it (or some kind of interactivity).

[Peaved T-40]

12 hours ago, Stabbey said:

 

This is a tangent to the original post, but those FLAT22's indicate that's active space, not void. I would normally expect voidspace to go on the sides of doors. If only because doors rise up to 4 units below the lowest ceiling and need that kind of space for them to work properly. It looks like you've made those sectors. Is there a reason for that?

 

There most certainly is a reason but it'll remain a secret for now. Though, I'm guessing I'm not the first to do what I'm doing so I imagine someone can hazard a guess

[Bridgeburner56]

I think if there is a use case for finding "the line" when it comes to detailing then I'm it. I have yet to encounter said line. The ultimate decision is what do you find fun. What level of detail do you like using. If you enjoy what you're making then all other considerations are less important. That being said there is a time cost for high detail maps. Bastion of Chaos took me about 400 hours to make (including testing and bug fixing). But I enjoy it so I do it.

[Herr Dethnout]

On 10/11/2022 at 2:15 PM, Krankebok said:

Sometimes i put very much detail in my maps.

This is a real shame... You didn't made the full keyboard with all 104 keys.

[K_Doom]

If you are taking a lot longer than you should because of details, that is, minor things that can go unnoticed, well, then that's not right. It's always good to keep it balanced, don't make square rooms too minimalistic, but also don't waste too much time with millimetric things.

[Krankebok]

On 10/12/2022 at 6:04 PM, poisonhead said:

 

Friggin' awesome! I'm jealous. Wish I had the nerves to doomify every instrument I have. But I would've made better keyboard and mouse :) Anyway one of the best Doom pics ever and I have to ask are you willing to share or do you wanna keep these treasures to yourself?

 

Has anyone else made musical instruments to Doom? I quickly and dirtily have a few flats/textures of my old mixer and my previous map had some instruments as sprites besides one keyboard made from sectors and flat. It'd be nice to see some satanic organ in some map let alone be able to play it (or some kind of interactivity).

Thanks man! I made it entirely with the doom's own stock textures, except the black keys are an black flat and sidedef i put in. The map itself is part of my own 32 level megawad i'm working on wich is now more or less half way finished.

[TasAcri]

On 10/11/2022 at 4:01 PM, Remilia Scarlet said:

 

Real time environment shadows?

 

How?