Knee-Deep in KDiZD: Released! It's KDiZD for doom2.exe - 1.7.1 is now on /idgames

[esselfortium]

57 minutes ago, RestlessRodent said:

 

Congrats on this release, really happy to see this project come to such fruition.

Thank you for your significant role in making it even possible for this project to exist!

[RestlessRodent]

5 minutes ago, esselfortium said:

Thank you for your significant role in making it even possible for this project to exist!

Thank you!

[Yhe1]

Hello, in the third level, I have all six keys, but I cannot find the button that open the secret exit. Can I get some help? Thanks!

[Faceman2000]

1 hour ago, Yhe1 said:

Hello, in the third level, I have all six keys, but I cannot find the button that open the secret exit. Can I get some help? Thanks!

 

[Redneckerz]

15 hours ago, RestlessRodent said:

 

Congrats on this release, really happy to see this project come to such fruition.

Very epic to see you return - even if just for a brief moment! What a pleasant surprise.

[NightFright]

For me it was the opposite. I found the exit, but not all keys to open it...

[Yhe1]

I saw the video, but which part of it was him finding the button? I can't find it. When I got to the end just like he did, the door just wouldn't open? Can somebody point out the timestamp? Thanks!

[esselfortium]

2 minutes ago, Yhe1 said:

I saw the video, but which part of it was him finding the button? I can't find it. When I got to the end just like he did, the door just wouldn't open? Can somebody point out the timestamp? Thanks!

Press use on the “I dropped my keys” computer near the red key door.

[Yhe1]

Thank you much!

[Fairen]

Playing through this really highlighted that the original Knee-Deep in zDoom, much like the original Episode 1, really was a product of its time. An impressive creation then, but times change, game design perspectives change, what might have been acclaimed then is discouraged now. KDiZD is as much 2007 as KDiKDiZD is 2022, which becomes evident as you play through KDiKDiZD.

 

I am, of course, talking about the overreliance on warp-in monsters. Such as swarms of monsters that ambush you in tiny rooms where you'll get overwhelmed if you don't already know to leg it immediately, and the absolutely fantastic design choice that is warping in monsters three feet behind you once you pass the magical invisible line.

 

Made it to Z1E5, to the part where you cross the bridge you raise in the first nukage room. I was at 38% health, so I figured I'd bob-and-shoot the zombies I expected to be in the room at the end of the bridge. Oh wait, a pinky popped out of thin air directly behind me as I entered the room and killed me. That same sort of thing happened in the previous level too, with the dark imp that spawns right. behind. YOU. as you're going up the stairs from the mega-armour room.

 

The original KDiZD wasn't really challenging, but it was still solid action in a creative and detailed reimagining and expansion of Knee-Deep in the Dead, a display of technical talent and an homage to the original game. Getting many of its elements to run in vanilla Doom is certainly a marvel, but there's a weird disconnect between "stuff that got changed for no real reason" and "stuff that probably should have been changed because it just doesn't work in vanilla, but didn't". On top of that, there's a constant air of condescension and better-than-thou towards KDiZD within the levels, as if KDiKDiZD isn't 95% identical to KDiZD anyway. (One of KDiKDiZD's selling point is supposedly better level progression, except there is barely any differences between the level layouts. At best, you'll get a shortcut. At worst, unnecessarily-added hurt floors.)

 

If 2037 brings us a KDiKDiKDiZD, the #1 thing such a WAD would need is to have a zombieman variant whom, instead of using a hitscan weapon, uses that "flare rifle" and does no more damage than a standard zombieman's bullets with it. It's a deeply disappointing excuse for the (granted, absurdly overpowered) magnificence of KDiZD's god-slaying, baron-pants-soiling A Rifle.

[esselfortium]

Sure, okay, there are "barely any differences to the layouts".

 

 

Sorry you didn't enjoy it. There would be no point in putting in this much effort into a perfect 1:1 recreation of something that already exists, so liberties were taken where I saw fit. (And, sure, maps that were already largely finished before the hiatus had fewer liberties taken in layout, but you yourself say they play very differently.) Thankfully the original KDiZD still exists to play.

 

As an aside, I am friends with some of the original KDiZD developers and solicited feedback from them before this was even released, so I take some offense at the notion that I'm coming at this from some "holier-than-thou" viewpoint. This may have originated as a teenage spite project 15 years ago, but that feeling wore off about a week into its many-year development cycle. It was a fun personal challenge to take an ambitious product of its time and rework it in my own way. If you think it reflects poorly on me to include some jokes or to be proud of what was done here, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

The flare rifle can gib monsters pretty easily, btw, so I'm not sure where you're getting "as powerful as a zombieman bullet" from...

[MarketAnarchy]

To me, KDiKDiZD is amazing and left me envious. Some of the trickery used is exactly what I'd been trying to do for ages without success. Gameplay and feel was an improvement as well. Kudos Essel.

[Zaratul]

So DSDA 0.25.0 is finally here! Im assuming its still reccomended to use software? Even when hardware indexed mode does not showing any errors?

[esselfortium]

30 minutes ago, Zaratul said:

So DSDA 0.25.0 is finally here! Im assuming its still reccomended to use software? Even when hardware indexed mode does not showing any errors?

Unless they've changed the draw order between flats and midtextures to mimic the software renderer (which I assume would be a tall ask), hardware rendering will still not support the translucent and reflective floor effects, unfortunately.

[Shepardus]

35 minutes ago, Zaratul said:

So DSDA 0.25.0 is finally here! Im assuming its still reccomended to use software? Even when hardware indexed mode does not showing any errors?

Indexed light mode mimics the software renderer's lighting but doesn't replicate other software rendering quirks that are not related to the color palette, so the fake translucency/reflections do not work.

 

On the plus side, the software renderer has been updated in 0.25.0 so that the imp's teeth do not glow in the dark.

[DarkQuill]

Finally played through it, it was pretty good, but I don't feel like it captured the core feature of the original that much; there wasn't any pointless meandering around for 2 hours per map.

 

Spoiler

This is a joke, haw haw

 

 

Some of the super-short-range teleports were a bit odd to play around, but obviously that's the small price to pay for the mods extreme amount of backwards compatibility. The altered demons were really good and fit in well, and the remixed tracks are superb (would love to hear the rest of the tracks done this way too!). I adore the workaround for the security camera feeds, very clever :D

 

Played in the latest version of GZDoom in hardware mode, apart from one or two instances where I suspect some of the translucent floor tricks were supposed to be showing (I couldn't get them to show up in software either though so maybe just soureport compat), it worked flawlessly.

Edited December 23, 2022 by DarkQuill
additional info

[Deeforce]

"Knee-Deep in KDiZD" is the best doom project in the year 2022!
You may want to release it here, too:
https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/ 

 

I use it with gzdoom-4-10-0-Windows-64bit in software mode!
https://zdoom.org/downloads 

[esselfortium]

2 hours ago, Deeforce said:

"Knee-Deep in KDiZD" is the best doom project in the year 2022!
You may want to release it here, too:
https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/ 

 

I use it with gzdoom-4-10-0-Windows-64bit in software mode!
https://zdoom.org/downloads 

Thank you! I will probably package up a release for idgames soon.

[Faceman2000]

Nothing to add that hasn’t been said. 10/10, my mind was blown, my heart was inspired, I was thoroughly entertained. Thank you for this endeavor in insanity.

 

So when does KDiTSoZD come out?

[NightFright]

15 years after SoZD will have been released. Just like before. Can't you do simple math, man?

 

Generous calculation:

- SoZD: 2030

- SoSoZD: 2045

 

Pretty sure I won't be able (nor would I probably still want) to play PC games any more by that time, dunno about you.

Edited December 27, 2022 by NightFright

[Scuba Steve]

I'd be 62... And still not eligible to collect my full pension...

[DarkQuill]

Playing through regular KDIZD now and can immediately figure out where I'm supposed to be going thanks to KDIKDIZD's tighter map design and less nonsense. That it translates over so well is a testament to the work put into the redone maps. Some of those original ones are no joke in terms of size and architecture, and figuring out how to cut/polish/balance them sounds very daunting.

 

Another well done to all involved~

 

[ChestedArmor]

I really like the custom monsters, sadly the monster sprites all look really messed up with the vanilla color palette.

Is there any way to get vanilla comp. files?

[Faceman2000]

Just use SLADE to convert them to true color PNGs, then add them to a wad with the vanilla palette and convert them back.

 

Alternatively, almost all of these sprites are available elsewhere in the original palette.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Faceman2000

[Edward850]

1 minute ago, Faceman2000 said:

Just use SLADE to convert them to true color PNGs, then add them to a wad with the vanilla palette and convert them back.

This is a rather unnecessary step. Slade3 can already colour convert between two arbitrary palettes. Simply covert from the existing palette to Doom's, then copy them over.

 

8 minutes ago, ChestedArmor said:

Is there any way to get vanilla comp. files?

The sprites already come from KDiZD, where they exist in the original Doom palette. You can take them from there.

[slowfade]

Goes without saying that this is an incredible production. Everything is made to the highest standards. The visual side is so impressive with the different colored lights, careful palette design, ingenious midtext use (one of the best aspects for me, the 3D designs), sectors that have different light levels in floor and ceiling, etc. And all that within the vanilla limits. The only downside for me is the sheer size of the levels themselves; their complex style gives me serious brain fatigue but I'm more liable to it than the average player so I can't blame the level designer for my own defects. Despite that I can see the levels are carefully crafted and adhere to the same high standards as every other aspect of the prod.

 

This is the most technically advanced vanilla wad seen so far and I don't think anyone will disagree with that. The amount of hacks and ideas will keep this production ahead of the rest for years to come. From a player's point of view, the interactive video monitors astonished me the most. There are so many things I couldn't replicate even if I knew how they were done.

 

Speaking of which, if anyone cares to explain to me how these two things were done I'd be happy:
1. In the first level the exploding wall. How is collecting the bomb and detonating it combined? Does collecting the bomb (how is it collected? is it a sector that lowers into the box?) lower an invisible wall that then allows manipulating the bomb wall? (Is the bomb wall a switch when its graphics change?) Does it use a conveyor belt to time the delay and the wall's disappearance? (I guess so.)
2. In one level (I couldn't find it again even after gliding over the levels with the clipping cheat for like 15 minutes) in a darkish area there's a 'roadway' sector that lights up and fades gradually once the player walks on it. As far as I can see its actual textures change. I guess it's done with a conveyor belt but how exactly? If it's a belt, how can it react instantly when the player steps out of it and enters it again? Or do I remember it wrong? I have the impression in my memory that the area reacts instantly without any delay of completing a conveyor loop cycle (are those even possible in vanilla?).

 

It astonishes me not only that something like this can be done in pure vanilla, but that the actual DOS engine is capable of allowing all of it without exploding. A true statement to the quality of the original programming, too.

[JXC]

1 hour ago, slowfade said:

Goes without saying that this is an incredible production. Everything is made to the highest standards. The visual side is so impressive with the different colored lights, careful palette design, ingenious midtext use (one of the best aspects for me, the 3D designs), sectors that have different light levels in floor and ceiling, etc. And all that within the vanilla limits. The only downside for me is the sheer size of the levels themselves; their complex style gives me serious brain fatigue but I'm more liable to it than the average player so I can't blame the level designer for my own defects. Despite that I can see the levels are carefully crafted and adhere to the same high standards as every other aspect of the prod.

 

This is the most technically advanced vanilla wad seen so far and I don't think anyone will disagree with that. The amount of hacks and ideas will keep this production ahead of the rest for years to come. From a player's point of view, the interactive video monitors astonished me the most. There are so many things I couldn't replicate even if I knew how they were done.

 

Speaking of which, if anyone cares to explain to me how these two things were done I'd be happy:
1. In the first level the exploding wall. How is collecting the bomb and detonating it combined? Does collecting the bomb (how is it collected? is it a sector that lowers into the box?) lower an invisible wall that then allows manipulating the bomb wall? (Is the bomb wall a switch when its graphics change?) Does it use a conveyor belt to time the delay and the wall's disappearance? (I guess so.)
2. In one level (I couldn't find it again even after gliding over the levels with the clipping cheat for like 15 minutes) in a darkish area there's a 'roadway' sector that lights up and fades gradually once the player walks on it. As far as I can see its actual textures change. I guess it's done with a conveyor belt but how exactly? If it's a belt, how can it react instantly when the player steps out of it and enters it again? Or do I remember it wrong? I have the impression in my memory that the area reacts instantly without any delay of completing a conveyor loop cycle (are those even possible in vanilla?).

 

It astonishes me not only that something like this can be done in pure vanilla, but that the actual DOS engine is capable of allowing all of it without exploding. A true statement to the quality of the original programming, too.

Esselfortium has a post explaining everything. A lot of the tricks were done using mikoportals or voodoo dolls. Her answers can be found within a few pages back.

[slowfade]

It does answer most of my questions about the exploding wall (my bad, didn't remember that post) but can't find anything there that'd explain the sector with the changing floor textures. No doubt done with the special tech but I'm curious how it can react to the player's change of position so quickly (assuming I don't remember it wrong).

[esselfortium]

37 minutes ago, slowfade said:

It does answer most of my questions about the exploding wall (my bad, didn't remember that post) but can't find anything there that'd explain the sector with the changing floor textures. No doubt done with the special tech but I'm curious how it can react to the player's change of position so quickly (assuming I don't remember it wrong).

If you mean the red floor that lights up near the start of Z1M7, it's a dark sector with the Light Glow special applied, and "Light to 255" walkovers on either side of it. The combination of the walkover actions and the Light Glow special causes it to temporarily light up and then fade back down to its original light level.

[slowfade]

Yes, that's it. So clever! I didn't know the glow could behave like that. I need to investigate this one (and utilize it!). I was expecting some huge conveyor belt with dozens of lower to lowest floor and change texture triggers and several textures with changed colors.