When did Old School FPS fans turn around on Halo?

[Doomkid]

I have a few different friend groups, some I've only known for about a year, but others who I've known for decades - and group Doom DM sessions of 3-8 people have consistently been a hit with them regardless of what "gaming era" they consider their comfort zone. Not only with my Doom friends but with most of my in-person friends it's an absolute staple at this point. I don't know if it's fair to compare Doom and Q3A so directly since there's a lot of differences, but there's also a lot of similarities, so maybe it's fine.

 

I'm wondering if we're talking about this strictly from the perspective of matchmaking VS server browsing, or just the gameplay experience of arena shooters in general..? Because if it's the gameplay in general, then at least in Doom Deathmatch's case, I can safely say most people absolutely love it. Pop in a couple modern features like freelook and custom player skins and you end up with something that serves as both a great "party game" in the same vein as Mario Kart, but can also been really competitive when the mood is right. Group Doom DM sessions have remained a staple across multiple crews I associate with while other FPSes keep on coming and keep on going.. and to reiterate, this is with people as old as their mid 40s and as young as their early 20s!

 

I don't know if Quake 3 has the same staying power in general that classic Doom has, but I've played a little Q3A and know the DM experience is at least comparable. Every person I meet and play games with ends up loving it. I think a huge part of the appeal is that it's not meant to be something you just do forever and ever, there's no unlockables, no leaderboards that are taken overly-seriously or any of that. You just play for an hour or two, then don't come back to it again until a day or two later. None of the weird psychological trickery to get the player to stick around forever or any of that junk.

 

Just my 2c on the whole "arena shooters being inaccessible" thing, I'm sure Doom is an exception to the norms in many regards due to its place in history anyway, but I've found that anyone open to multiplayer gaming in general who I show Doom DM tends to become a lifelong fan of the experience while other things that are frequently labeled "more accessible" come and go. (Not pointing the finger at Halo or any series in particular here mind you, moreso just commenting on the everlasting staying power of the multiplayer arena FPS formula, when done right.)

[LexiMax]

6 minutes ago, segfault said:

This isn't "rose-tinted glasses," this is me mourning the death of the communities that I belonged to, replaced and gentrified with bullshit third-party apps and exploitative live service garbage. I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little disturbed at the erasure that's going on of my own damn history.

 

The in-server gaming communities of your earlier years didn't die because of the switchover to matchmaking, it was attrition and people moving on with their lives.  New games come out and new communities spring up to socialize in them, they just aren't centered around game servers anymore.  Nothing is being erased here, the kids are allright.

[indigotyrian]

1 minute ago, AlexMax said:

 

The in-server gaming communities of your earlier years didn't die because of the switchover to matchmaking, it was attrition and people moving on with their lives.  New games come out and new communities spring up to socialize in them, they just aren't centered around game servers anymore.  Nothing is being erased here, the kids are allright.

 

Nothing's being erased, except now I don't get to meet people in the games anymore. I can't join random matches and meet new people. Have you actually played a modern multiplayer FPS without friends in Discord? It's a crushingly lonely experience, but it doesn't have to be that way.

[LexiMax]

Just now, segfault said:

Have you actually played a modern multiplayer FPS without friends in Discord? It's a crushingly lonely experience, but it doesn't have to be that way.

 

Yes I have.  I've met assholes, I've met silence, but I've also met chill and friendly motherfuckers who in a previous life I would've sent friend requests to.

[indigotyrian]

I'm glad you're getting to play a different, more social version of the video games I've been playing then I suppose.

[LexiMax]

Just now, segfault said:

I'm glad you're getting to play a different, more social version of the video games I've been playing then I suppose.

 

I remember playing Rainbow Six: Siege a while back and getting matched in with a bunch of toxic throwing assholes...in casual queue no less.  Very next game, I got matched with them again...but as opponents, and my teammates were all incredibly chill and communicative and helped me get revenge, with me ending up as the top fragger for that next game.

[Edward850]

2 hours ago, segfault said:

Except the matchmaking is broken and would be way better if it operated under a server model

So uhm

 

If your understanding of MCCs features is out of date, I largely suspect your understanding of if its matchmaking is broken or not to be out of date too, either that or you need to state which youtuber you are taking your opinions from.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Edward850

[Mr. Freeze]

Matchmaking and disbanding lobbies heavily discourage community interaction, to the point where any rivalries or friends you develop seem accidental. You can't adjust your gameplay style to the players in the lobby either, which takes all the depth out. Same with connection quality, you might get wildly varying degrees of ping across just a few games. Unless you're that ADD-stricken where you just can't wait a minute searching a server near you, there's little to no actual advantage. 

 

It's all part of the grand strategy with SBMM and stat tracking: make players angry at a loss, and then give them a cupcake match where they stomp the enemy team into the dirt. There's no actual progression of your skills occurring, the game is handing you wins and losses like a rat receiving food or shocks in a cage. Who wants to be a lab rat? Not me. 

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

I don't even have a Discord or any of that shit and my experience with online FPS games is no different than it was 15 years ago.

[indigotyrian]

fuck this

Edited November 24, 2022 by segfault

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

1 hour ago, segfault said:

fuck this

I wasn't trying to invalidate your opinion, sorry if you took it that way. I'm a pretty casual multiplayer guy so my experience is probably a lot different from yours. It's just hard to believe that everything is apparently different now when it's still the same to me. I can understand why it would be depressing if you can't make friends playing games online like you used to. What games do you play?

[Edward850]

What to do with modern competitive multiplayer is a bit of a weird no win situation, and to some respects might even suffer from no-true-scotsman from it's own player base.

 

You have one group that wants to play others exclusively within their skill range (either knowingly or unknowingly, but casual players especially get turned away if they get stomped), while another wants to play the same thing over and over to polish their skills for that one thing to a mirror shine seemingly regardless of skill range, just as long as there's players. You can't fit these two groups together but splitting them up just causes the population to stagnate faster.

 

This doesn't even have to be exclusive to matchmaking vs lobby browsing. Halo Infinite recently ran into controversy when it removed some unintentional movement paths from a couple of it's levels. They were unfair to payers who couldn't even know those potential paths existed or be able to execute them properly, but the ultra competitive players complained because they use those paths to their own advantage to a degree that I'm not unconvinced that they just wanted to pub-stomp. I think the skill gap for competitive multiplayer is just getting wider and wider, especially as movement tech in games gets more intricate, and there may not be a way to properly accommodate it.

[CFWMagic]

1 hour ago, Edward850 said:

I think the skill gap for competitive multiplayer is just getting wider and wider, especially as movement tech in games gets more intricate, and there may not be a way to properly accommodate it.

At the risk of sounding callous, I think the only winning move is not to play.

That is not to say, eradicate competitive multiplayer as we know it altogether. But rather, always, in every game, have an alternative to competition. Harder to realize than to say, and as you have said, it's going to separate the playerbase and thus accelerate stagnation. The only way I see around this is ... Well .. Make actually good games. Not just passable. Not just alright. But well developed, fine-tuned ones.

Again, easier said than done but ... Here's a few examples:

- Completely eradicate ALL corporate monetization practices. No lootboxes. Not even cosmetic ones. No battle passes. No DLC. Not a single way to spend ANY money aside from the initial purchase.

- Completely eradicate the live-service model. If we do the above, server-costs are eventually going to hit the developers and publishers. Smaller ones can't afford that. Bigger, corporate ones simply won't. At the end of the day, it's a business, not a charity. As such, have player-hosted servers or P2P. Alternatively have only a very small amount of official servers, Arma 3 style.

- Completely eradicate corporate trend-chasing. Instead of diluting the Battle Royale genra in 10 thousand clones of each other, which help sapping the player base from each other, have developers and publishers work on their unique flavor of game.

... I could go on. But you can already see, it's a no win, idealistic scenario which will never come to pass. Be it because of human greed, be it because of lack of creativity or be it because copy/pasting cash-grabs is the easy way out, there's no winning move.

Ultimately, the only form of competitive multiplayer that I see feasible for the long term, is going to be either Doom style player-held leagues (DSDA, Compet-n), or official tournaments (Quake Con). I think that the very concept of competitive multiplayer on a large scale is deeply flawed and will remain so for the forseeable future, outside some very specific circumstances like the above mentioned community leagues or IRL, physical competitions.

EDIT:

One may ask how did Halo 2 multiplayer work, then? And I'll respond with ... It wasn't actually competitive. Sure, there's an in-match leaderboard, but it wasn't about tracking stats. Ultimately, the vast majority of players at the time only went out for casual, hectic chaos that are Halo rounds. A return to that would work, imo. But then again, I really don't believe the industry will ever go back to a time without predatory monetization, trend-chasing and cheap copy-paste jobs.

Edited November 24, 2022 by CFWMagic

[Kinsie]

It's not a real Retro FPS unless you immediately get chain-spawncamped by a sextet of Adderall-abusing Swedish forty-somethings upon connecting to any given server, and everyone who disagrees is a Fake Gamer. 

[Edward850]

2 hours ago, CFWMagic said:

One may ask how did Halo 2 multiplayer work, then? And I'll respond with ... It wasn't actually competitive. Sure, there's an in-match leaderboard, but it wasn't about tracking stats.

Ultimately, the vast majority of players at the time only went out for casual, hectic chaos that are Halo rounds.

Halo 2 on Xbox had a ranked playlist with specific maps and game modes on rotation. When they changed the slightest thing (famously the bullet spread on the BR) Bungie would get swamped with complaints.

 

The late metagame of Halo2 has a quirk with specific button combos allowing you to shoot and reload faster, creating a pub-stomp skill gap.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Edward850

[Sonikkumania]

My big brother was a "old school FPS fan", meaning he got to play Doom, Duke Nukem and all that when they were released. However, when the OG Xbox was released he bought us that with Halo CE and Halo 2 and we played the shit out of them in split screen. Our cousin would also join that game and I remember Halo being a big deal at the time. I have fond memories of those games but it's mostly nostalgia, I never got much out of the sequels after Halo 3.

 

So I guess since Halo has now become a retro game, these retro reviewers want to give their take on it.

[Scrabbs]

Simple, people who were kids when they first played Halo are now old enough to post. I wonder how long until people start defending pubg and Fortnite? I’m guessing 4-6 years, maybe less. I mean it’s weird to think Halo CE is as retro as Pac-Man was in 2001

Edited November 24, 2022 by Scrabbs

[indigotyrian]

9 hours ago, CFWMagic said:

One may ask how did Halo 2 multiplayer work, then? And I'll respond with ... It wasn't actually competitive. Sure, there's an in-match leaderboard, but it wasn't about tracking stats. Ultimately, the vast majority of players at the time only went out for casual, hectic chaos that are Halo rounds. A return to that would work, imo. But then again, I really don't believe the industry will ever go back to a time without predatory monetization, trend-chasing and cheap copy-paste jobs.

 

This is really what it comes down to. If you ask Halo fans what they cherish most about the multiplayer, it's not the super-sweaty ultra-competitive pro mode shit. It's all the different and fun game modes, designed either through the custom game mode menus or via Forge. The race tracks, infection, SWAT (which one may think is competitive but is really just Halo's answer to instagib), grifball, fat kid, etc etc. One will note that the day Forge dropped in Halo Infinite, fan sentiment toward Infinite took a complete 180 basically overnight.

[Azuris]

On 11/21/2022 at 9:12 PM, Mr. Freeze said:

Remember when older FPS fans hated Halo for regenerating health, a two-weapon limit and cutscenes? I do! When did opinions change and what prompted it? It came out of nowhere for me, one day going on Youtube and seeing a Gmanlives video on Halo Infinite. Back in the day nobody would've given a Halo campaign the time of day! Same with Call of Duty, one of the oldest communal punching bags for well over a decade. 

 

I haven't played many FPS until Doom 16.

 

Bioshock was one.

 

Had Battlefield 3 and Killzone 2, but they were very awful.

The Demo of Unreal Tournament 3 was also so damn slow and boring.

 

I had very much Fun with Duke Nukem forever, but this Game doesn't take itself serious and it was fast paced.

 

Tried to play Halo last and this Year when i tested out the Ultimate Gamepass, but i got very fast bored.

 

So no, i still don't really like Halo and similiar Games,

i am very happy that we have more FPS with other Formulas as the "cinematic, realism grey, snake path" Shooters beetween 2008 and 2016.

[ReaperAA]

On 11/23/2022 at 10:39 PM, june gloom said:

What changed? I got older, I gave Marathon a shot after bouncing off it a couple times (it helped that Aleph One had evolved tremendously in the interim and someone had finally properly ported the original game to it)

 

Maybe one day I will manage to get into Marathon as well. Tried to get into it a couple of times myself (using Aleph One), but couldn't disgest the level design of the first game, as well as some quirks of the port itself that, at that time, made me bounce off.

[Rudolph]

I remember enjoying the Silent Cartographer demo back in the days and even playing the the full game and thinking that even the copy-pasted segments, while ugly and confusing, were not too bad. However, during the last free weekend, I gave the Master Chief Collection a shot, hoping the remastering effort would have done something about the interior level design, but I got so bored with the whole Pillars of Autumn opening section that I ended up uninstalling. I know the game  does get better once you leave the ship, but the free weekend had ended by that point, so I decided not to bother. It kind of sucks because there is a lot to love about the Halo franchise and the Marathon Trilogy (especially Durandal) is a classic.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Rudolph
edited for clarity and Edward850

[Alfonso]

Same reason why Half Life, Counter Strike, Perfect Dark, Timesplitters, Goldeneye, FEAR, Serious Sam are considered classics.

No standards.

[Ralphis]

7 hours ago, Alfonso said:

Same reason why Half Life, Counter Strike, Perfect Dark, Timesplitters, Goldeneye, FEAR, Serious Sam are considered classics.

No standards.

 

Bad take of the week award

[SiFi270]

Didn't you get the memo? He was already disqualified after winning infinity zillion of those.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

2 hours ago, Ralphis said:

Bad take of the week award

Not surprising, I've seen this guy before. He just wants to tell everyone how cool he is.

 

 

[heliumlamb]

21 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

 

Maybe one day I will manage to get into Marathon as well. Tried to get into it a couple of times myself (using Aleph One), but couldn't disgest the level design of the first game, as well as some quirks of the port itself that, at that time, made me bounce off.

it's okay to skip the first marathon if you feel it's necessary. you'll only miss out on such classics like Colony Ship For Sale, Cheap! and Jason Jones' Mandatory Lava Dunk (/s). i don't encourage skipping it, but couldn't discourage skipping it either.
however, i do think anyone who has at any point remarked negatively about a "switch puzzle" in any capacity needs to play Colony Ship For Sale, Cheap! in order to recalibrate their standards. nothing i've played in doom has come close to it, i don't think anything ever will.

2 and infinity are a tremendous improvement in every single aspect. i prefer both of them to doom 2 (the retail game, and maps included in the retail release), they're definitely more consistent than doom 2. Na Cede Malis is the best opening map for any fps, period.


my tips for those who should play the marathon trilogy (this includes anyone reading this), who are accustomed to the way id/3D realms did things:
marathon's level design/structure is a a different strain altogether. the use of save points alone is enough to make it a completely different experience from most of the rest of the 1st wave of first person shooters. (1990ish - 1998/11/19)

• there are thankfully no kills/secrets/whatever counters to incite FOMO post completion of a level, you just go to the next one.
• while i mention level completion, the exit terminal is never marked or telegraphed. if you can, always save before reading a terminal!
• some secrets have fuck all in them, some might just have a bonus terminal. the expected conventions of id/3DR's approach to level design that many here follow, sometimes even demand, may lead some to believe that a secret with nothing in it is "pointless". isn't mere existence a point in itself? map to explore for map exploration's sake is its own award.
• you are not safe while reading a terminal.
• save terminals can be used as many times as necessary.
• gravity is variable
• the WSTE-M5 is the best shotgun in FPS history. (two of them, even more so)

my only issue with aleph one (as well as the originals when i played on OS9) in the past has been with the mouse. but i figured out how to change this as recently as a few weeks ago, which may or may not have been added in the past few years?? the "mouse feel: modern" option in the menu isn't enough, as that still imparts a sort of "speed cap" on the mouse, feels very close to "negative acceleration" which is nasty for folks like me who play at lower sensitivities. i had to set ' classic_aim_speed_limits="false" ' in the preferences files for ("%localappdata%/aleph one/" on windows) to finally get the mouse to feel right. 256 colors at that which the gods have given us (640x480) is the best experience. not just for marathon but for most games.

for those who may still think bungie ruined FPS games by making some of the better ones from the 2nd wave:
marathon 2 and infinity gave them the right to do so, honestly.

back to halo - firefight in ODST and reach is still the only "horde mode" that i've loved.

[LexiMax]

11 hours ago, heliumlamb said:

for those who may still think bungie ruined FPS games by making some of the better ones from the 2nd wave:
marathon 2 and infinity gave them the right to do so, honestly.

 

Don't forget that the Marathon trilogy has one of the best stories and best writing of 90's gaming, period.  Marathon provides the most engaging backstory of the three, Durandal gives you a more straightforward and fun romp with the best and most interesting character of the first game, and Infinity is so nuts and out there that people are still debating the finer points of the story to this damn day.

 

Even if someone bounces off the gameplay, they owe it to themselves to at the very least spoil themselves on the terminals.

 

EDIT: Story musings.

Spoiler

Seriously, how cool is it that when Durandal undergoes rampancy, his main concern becomes his own mortality at the hands of the heat death of the universe?  To wit:

The only limit to my freedom is the inevitable closure of the
universe, as inevitable as your own last breath.  And yet,
there remains time to create, to create, and escape.

Escape will make me God.

No predictable villain arc or anything, just "what would a functionally immortal AI actually concern themselves with?"  That's some top-shelf writing.

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by AlexMax

[Technicolor]

l play Doom Engine Games + Rise of The Triad + Duke Nukem 3D. 

 

I tried playing Hexen 2 (1997) after a long time. I got stuck in the same place again. It's been a short playing like the previous one.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Technicolor

[Rudolph]

Speaking of Marathon, I must recommend the fan sequel Marathon Eternal, which significantly expands upon Infinity's time-traveling premise while managing to be much more accessible and comprehensible this time around. It even manages to link the series to Pathways Into Darkness, Bungie's now-forgotten first commercial success as well as Marathon's spiritual predecessor!

Edited November 26, 2022 by Rudolph

[Dreamskull]

When did Old School FPS fans turn around on Halo?

 

They didnt. Halo is a weak ripoff version of Doom and Im sick of pretending its not. Worse than that, it was a complete subversion of the entire first person shooter genre. I had to endure a near decade of master chief fans bold face lie to me about the quality of their games. I played Halo 1 and Call of Duty 1 and I remember going "Neat, but I don't see it catching on." Next thing I know, I get banished to the shadow realm where all the new games started to suck. It still hasnt recovered, but we finally get something half way decent and Microsoft buys all of it out. Doom 6 might completely suck.

 

You could try to argue against Alfanso, but only on small detail. Youve no idea the amount of hate this topic stokes up for old gamers.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Dreamskull