tonytheparrot Posted December 25, 2022 (edited) Sorry again, but I still did not enjoy FW map 1 despite playing it on HNTR, HMP and UV. I stand by my decision to not play the wad, at least not on the club. I still hope all of you enjoy playing and talking about it! Edited December 25, 2022 by tonytheparrot 6 Quote Share this post Link to post
Azure_Horror Posted December 25, 2022 22 minutes ago, tonytheparrot said: Sorry again, but I still did not enjoy FW map 1 despite playing it on HNTR, HMP and UV. I stand by my decision to not play the wad, at least not on the club. I still hope all of you enjoy playing and talking about it! No problem! Your post was just a good starting point to discuss differences between diffculties. HNTR gameplay felt notably different from UV or HMP gameplay, and I decided to advice trying out this particular difficulty setting. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post
Book Lord Posted December 25, 2022 Merry Christmas everybody! As for the votes, January is a bit of an odd month since I won't have much time to play Doom in the first half, so I would just drop a vote for the cause of +++ Solar Struggle 1#kill & 1#killTNG are getting more preferences and I am hoping they are gaining momentum for February, where they would fill the month schedule just fine with 28 +3 maps. If you choose them for January, ok, but beware of the first WAD because it has some indecent moments, along with the seeds of the much better sequel. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post
finnks13 Posted December 26, 2022 MAP02 - Midnight Tengu: 30:27/20 Deaths I had a much more mixed experience with Midnight Tengu than I was expecting. There are some excellent moments here, and also some moments that made me question why I was bothering to play this at all. To start with, this map is very long and weirdly paced in terms of difficulty, since there isn't much in the first 15 or so minutes (about up until the room with the yellow switch in) that should trouble most people, and then Nirvana decides to tighten a vice on your nuts for the rest of the map out of nowhere. This type of difficulty flip-flopping felt very off to me, and I'd have preferred if the map had been more challenging from the outset. Once again, the visuals and atmosphere are fantastic, and I think the music is perfectly chosen. The theme of "techbase" is still the same as in Map01, but this map's architecture and use of cyan & grey make it feel completely different while you're in the level. There's also a couple of dojo sections, which break up any potential monotony and look sick. I don't have too much to say about the first bit of the map, the combat is fun and provides a little challenge, but remains very doable if you're paying attention and learning from your inevitable demise the first time you trigger each trap. This slow beginning feels "off" in retrospect, especially compared to the madcap action of Tomahawk, but I enjoyed it in the moment, which is what counts at the end of the day. The fight in the large area with the purple key door were a little annoying, the random cyberdemon rockets were miserable and the cybers and archviles spawning in ~20 seconds after you trigger the fight felt rather cheap, though I will admit I'm unsure how you'd get a similar effect of blocking this area off after some time elapses without it feeling like this. The platforming in the yellow key fight was awful, and this fight in general felt very out of my control, with my successful attempt feeling more like a fluke than anything else (maybe I just suck). The final fight I'd like to highlight is the cyberdemon sandwich in the dojo, and this fight was actually very cool with how you have to get the different cyberdemon colours to infight, however I did find that because all the threats were firing rockets, it often felt like getting hit even once was a death sentence. This made this part pretty frustrating, though unlike a lot of the time when I get frustrated with a fight, I was still happy when I finally conquered it rather than just being relieved I didn't have to restart it for the umpteenth time. The rest of the map mostly involves nuking stuff with the BFG, and despite the complete horseshit that is the initial reveal of the archvile horde which reminds me more of a troll you'd find in a Kaizo Mario hack than a combat set-piece in a doom map, I enjoyed this ending section. Overall, Midnight Tengu made some mis-steps in setting up expectations, and had some frustrating design decisions but the overall experience was still an enjoyable one. ~~~ VOTES: +++ Solar Struggle +++ Community Chest 2 (you know you want to :P) +++ 200 Line Massacre (would prefer just one of the two, because even though the levels in these two wads are very short I'm not sure playing 68 maps in one month for the club sounds particularly fun) Hope everyone had a nice Christmas! 12 Quote Share this post Link to post
RHhe82 Posted December 26, 2022 (edited) MAP03: On Electric Winds. Played on DSDA v0.24, HMP, PS. 490/490 K, 6/6 S, 36/44 I. Completion time 41:33. This was the last map I had completed on HNTR earlier this year. This time I played the level in several sittings, and although the completion time is only little over 40 minutes, I spent quite a bit more time on this one. Everything goes well enough until the first big fight that houses the vast majority of enemy numbers. You know the one with the cool mechanic of temporary de-hurtifying of the floor. At first I tried rocketing the towering mini-cybers and imps, but I'd always get overwhelmed, if cyber rockets didn't take care of me before. Then it occured to me to press the switches. This tactic got backed when I watched Stx-Vile's Youtube video, where exactly that is performed. It just baffling how well enemies seem to behave in their video; I just get blastered with cyber rockets, face rockets and imps would just overwhelm anyway whereas in the video a few rockets clears space nicely. This is where I started save-scumming. Not just midfight saving, but making panic saves and hoping for the best, and I would keep savescumming for most of the rest of the level, although I do believe this is the hardest fight. The only fight I'd play legitimately (making a midfight save when things start clearing up, a "safety save" if you will) is the one that comes soon after the big fight, the one with dozens of hell knights and squadron of mini-cybers. The one where you get the BFG. I think the last fight with the disorienting teleports is easier1, but I struggled there too, I had to have a run where the cybers wouldn't teleport back to me when I had first ran from the cybers to the other end of the arena and back again. Rocketing hell nobles and looking for opportunities to run across to the other niche wasn't that impossible, but a bit luck-dependant perhaps. The secret fight should have been "easy", but I savescummed there too, when the other cyber would get stuck on the ledge, unable to move (although being in the danger of falling down, I guess, which would have sucked big time). So, uhh, yeah. I think I should switch (back) to HNTR2. I like Fractured Worlds too much as to let stubborness and pride sour the experience. I don't mind using saves and even safety saves midfight, but abusing save system is a sign of choosing too high a difficulty. 1 I indeed try and play maps beforehand so as to avoid stress. I played this map on the 18th, and looking at this statement on the 26th, over a week later, what I really struggle with here is to see what I mean by easier here. All I can remember now is that Hell Knight + Cyber arena with the BFG was a nice and tidy arena fight, whereas the teleport corridor was a clusterfudge I survived only when the cybers would get stuck in the middle and die in infighting. 2 Spoiler alert: HNTR isn't chosen until MAP05. Edited December 26, 2022 by RHhe82 9 Quote Share this post Link to post
RHhe82 Posted December 26, 2022 4 hours ago, finnks13 said: I'm not sure playing 68 maps in one month for the club sounds particularly fun Playing 68 short maps isn't tedious (probably) -- but trying to come up with something to write about each of 'em sounds very stressful indeed D: 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
Azure_Horror Posted December 26, 2022 (edited) Running Late 2 Map 08 Graveyard Shift DSDA-Doom, UV, pistol start, complevel 9 This map gives quite a lot of vibes. Lots of dark rooms. Lonely. Kinda boring in a moment-to-moment sense. Time goes slowly. Kinda "you can go anywhere" map. Setpieces appear non-demanding, but errors can cascade and create quite a mess, which you will need to fix afterwards. The name "Graveyard Shift" fits the map perfectly! When it comes to evocative and fitting map names, only "Culture Shock" from Ancient Aliens, "Dehydration" from Eviternity and "Beyond" from Uprising reach the same level of precision as "Graveyard Shift"! (At least, I cannot remember anything else right now.) As for gameplay details, this map provides not as much straightforward excitement as previous few maps from Going Down Running Late. Its strengths are more subtle. The amount of intersecting routes seems to be unusually high for a "modernist" map. Basically, Knee Deep in the Deep map structure meets Vanguard, or Resurgence flavor of gameplay. Quite a neat concept, and a great realization. Map 09 The Crate Temple 2 DSDA-Doom, UV, pistol start, complevel 9 Two texture themes seem quite abundant in Doom pWADs: - Crates. - Gothic temples. Come to think about it, a gothic temple dedicated to crates is a natural idea for a Doom map! And that's exactly what we've got. Compared to previous maps, this one has more complex architecture, but it seems very easy to navigate. Clever design all around, if you ask me! Map structure allows for a free-roaming gameplay approach. The encounter design with almost zero lock-ins or isolated rooms encourages it further. With a lot of space to move around, lack of stronger arms becomes much less fatal. Thus, somewhat obscure placement of Rocket launcher and Super shotgun didn't bother me. (In fact I managed to miss the SSG almost completely on my first playthrough, but it didn't ruin the experience.) Wonderful map. Some other things of note: - Subtle elevated subsections from map 06 return, now they are even more prominent. A path to Yellow Key looks like a purely decorative set of structures from below, but it becomes a pretty interesting set of rooms, when traversed from above. - Possessed Security guards and Skele-boxers feel very fitting in this map, I even forgot that those monsters are custom-made. - Map felt like it would feel right at home in Tarnsman's Projectile Hell Episode 1. TPH arsenal and enemy roster seem to be quite fitting for The Crate Temple 2. Map 10 Overtime DSDA-Doom, UV, pistol start, complevel 9 What do we have here? A section of a highway, huge piece of water Infrastructure, and some desert locations! Is this some expansive map from cacoward-winning Lost Civilization? Or another huge terraforming installation from cacoward-winning Malevolence? Not at all! It is a relatively compact Valiant-esque map from @A2Rob's Running Late 2! (Still cacoward-winning, BTW. There is some justice in this world, it seems.) Organically combining three related, but distinct settings in one map is quite a feat. But combining them in one non-huge map? And filling every single inch of the map with quality gameplay? This is a mindblowing achievement! Truly a great map, no questions about it! Before I will discuss gameplay, I must make a small confession: I like gameplay from Valiant. However, such gameplay is rather unmemorable for me, for some reason. Similar problem happens to Running Late 2 gameplay. Thus, I struggle to describe the gameplay set ups in detail. Even then, a few set ups from Overtime I remember quite clearly: - A particular cyberdemon. You know the one I am talking about. That towering rocket-arm colossus follows the player for a good portion of the map, like infamous Mancubian Candidate from Valiant. - Desert sections, especially the second one. There is something cool in them, which I cannot quite grasp. They remind me of desert section from @skillsaw's Imperator (Eviternity map31). - The final battle, where multiple waves of demons try to attack the doomguy on the blocked section of highway. This section is memorable from both action and spectacle perspectives. Edited December 27, 2022 by Azure_Horror 6 Quote Share this post Link to post
NiGHTS108 Posted December 26, 2022 MAP14: The End Kills: 100% Items: 66% Secrets: 100% Time: 3:20 Seems Doomguy finally got to work... which appears to be killing demons. Huh. Convenient, I guess. Not a whole lot to say here, listen to the *delightful* Queen MIDI, run around the room hitting any switch you can and when you're ready, activate the 200 monster fight. A huge flock of Imps with light Arch-Vile seasoning for some extra zest. Don't let the Imps overwhelm you and you should be fine. This map is a lot more charming than how I'm describing it thanks to the MIDI, and overall it's a nice "ending" to Running Late 2. Don't forget to idclev15 on a ZDoom port. Grade: B+ Difficulty: D - MAP15: ... ... MAP31: Heavy Press Kills: 93% Items: 62% Secrets: 100% Time: 6:31 Heavy Press is a pretty neat little MAP31 that kinda feels like a main entry reject but nonetheless is still pretty fun. It's a very focused map, most of the action taking place in this pretty small space and it's also surprisingly snappy with Arch-Vile usage. The night blue sky definitely helps in making this properly feel like a bonus however. I don't particularly have a lot to say about this map to be honest, it's kinda lacking in the details I've come to like so much about Running Late 2 but that's my only real issue with it. I didn't quite get the secret exit on this run but it's easy to find, when taking the teleporter in the hellish marble area, look behind you for a switch, quickly run across for another switch, hop down and go through the door near the start which is now open. You're not getting paid overtime for this one. Grade: A- Difficulty: B- MAP32: Supply Closet Kills: 100% Items: 90% Secrets: 0% Time: 13:14 Man... I can't believe this map was hidden away behind all these layers of secret exits! This one is a blast. Seemingly inspired by Resurgence MAP17 while taking the concept to a whole new level, Supply Closet is a deep underground... supply closet on the edge of reality. The atmosphere here is top notch, borrowing the same MIDI from Resurgence, Stuart Rynn's appropriately titled "Basement", which also compliments the action surprisingly well. Surprisingly this one doesn't really have a major fight like how the Resurgence map did, it chooses more to spread the 600 enemies over a decently long run time but still for the most part keeping to the same arena all the way through. Health and ammo is never in short supply but I did find this map to be quite difficult, the fights can get overwhelming quickly if you're not careful. The ending parts after you get all the keys is fun, you drop into this huge half-hellish arena which reveals a Cyberdemon and like 300 fodder enemies for endless gibs. Beautiful. After that you actually move into a destroyed version of the main arena of the map, there's 10 enemies or so left on the kill count, so take a guess what enemy they all are. The ending is kind of weird, I'm not really sure what's going on, is Doomguy just stuck in the abyss now? Who knows. Overall a great map and a more than welcome reward for secret hunters trying to find every last map in this wad. Grade: A Difficulty: A - FINAL THOUGHTS - I'm not exactly sure how to describe it, but Running Late 2 was somehow worse and better than I expected. Well... that sounds like a bad thing, but I did actually really enjoy this wad! It slips in places and a few maps could be seen as generic, but as a whole this wad was a blast. The city theme feels really unique and well done, the details all add to the visual style, and the gameplay is fluid and just wonderful. I went in with high expectations after I already loved A2Rob's Ozonia and Ad Mortem maps, and although I wouldn't call this wad perfect, I think he absolutely nailed it. I'll definitely be on the lookout for more A2Rob maps going forward. For a final grade I give Running Late 2 an A. In difficulty it's not too bad, most of the wad is manageable without much majorly difficult but I wouldn't exactly call it easy. B- about on par with Plutonia sounds right to me. Whole playthrough Now for the grand ranking! Spoiler 05: Rooftop Rampage :) 12: Un-Employed 32: Supply Closet 10: Overtime 06: Rough Commute 13: Need A Vacation 02: Chinatown Beatdown 31: Heavy Press 04: Oil Rigged 14: The End 03: Under Construction 09: The Crate Temple 2 11: Break Room 01: Drip 07: Dead On Arrival 08: Graveyard Shift 4 Quote Share this post Link to post
Book Lord Posted December 26, 2022 MAP 03 – On Electric Winds by @Nirvana DSDA-Doom v0.24.3, HMP, Pistol start, blind run w/saves My journey through Fractured Worlds ended flying On Electric Winds and hitting the ground too many times to be wanting for more. This map was one of the finest concepts I have seen in my Doom endeavours: a triumph of the cyan aesthetics of this megaWAD, an impressive showcase of Boom tricks and hyper-detailed mapping technique, offering brutal slaughter setups peppered with gripping incidental combat, taking place in colossal tech arenas that could only inspire awe and respect for their creator. That said, I stopped having fun halfway into the level. As in the latter maps of Haste, I started feeling out of place, trying to beat a map I would never find myself comfortable with. The fluorescent liquid permeating the caverns dealt 10% damage and was present in almost every situation, adding to the pressure exerted by the Cyberdemons, the cornerstones upon which most encounters were constructed. The first flooded cave network contained many Radiation Suits but learning their placement along with the weapon and ammo pickups required a few attempts. Infighting must be exploited in the first encounter, as there was not enough firepower to kill everybody unless the player was comfortable at punching a Cyberdemon while chased by Revenants and an Arch-Vile. The descent through the alien caverns continued in the same fashion, expanding the arsenal without swimming in ammo. The CK was found inside an artificial construction, after enduring a Hell Noble gauntlet in a cubicle, followed by a rather unfair teleport trap with Mancubi and a teal Cyberdemon in a narrow room. When the boss appeared he simply killed me because I was not expecting such a thing in my face. The area unlocked by the key included a short platforming puzzle, where mistakes were punished with death by damaging floor unless the player was judicious enough to use a brand-new shielding suit. Spoiler The last cavern section hosted the YK encounter, a rather confusing area with Arch-Viles and Revenants appearing in haphazard ways from pillars that must be lowered to progress. Still scratching my head about the widespread inescapable pits, I arrived in a circular room working as the level hub. I was very low on ammo and must rely on infighting to kill the Arch-Vile and the two Revenants. From there the slaughter set pieces were accessed in succession, beginning with the one that was arguably the hardest to figure out. A switch with a white cross started a pump device that changed the damaging water in the pool below into harmless blood. Unfortunately, the effect faded away long before the mess following the BK pickup could be even remotely sorted. There was a second switch to replicate the trick, but no other chances to further avoid floor damage. Choosing when to use it, whether to attack or preserve the Cyberdemons, when to pick up the Megasphere, and when to press the blue switches that added a host of Revenants to the mass of Imps, required intimate knowledge of the whole encounter. No impromptu reactions, no movement skills or horde management techniques: only a plan, its flawless execution, and a mid-fight save could get me through this encounter. Spoiler The RK was much milder in comparison, and I owned it right away. My only mistake was the liberal use of the BFG, believing it was the intended weapon and then discovering there were not that many cells. They would have come in handy in the next triple Cyberdemon trial, where I could only fire a single BFG shot. When I realised there was a teleporter to a ledge that could be temporarily closed by shooting a crosshair, and that telefragging the monster up there was not a straightforward task, I resigned myself to kill them with my meagre ammo supply. SSG and rockets barely sufficed, but it was hard, and I even died once to who knows what after killing the last Cyberdemon. Spoiler A peaceful walk through a grandiose tech-dome decorated by lights, scrolling textures, and surrounded by hulking metal prisms preceded the last ordeal, a Cyberdemon & Hell Noble combo in a hallway split in three parts by two gaps. Teleporting lines sent both Doomguy and the enemies from one side to the other of each gap, increasing the dizziness and the random nature of the fight. I showed my back to the bosses and sprinted towards the other monster group, then I carved my path through the Hell Nobles rear while the front line was busy at infighting. I performed further dances to evade a Cyberdemon that stubbornly chased me even if hammered by cyan projectiles, but the nature of this encounter was less tight than anything that preceded it. At this point I was tired, and I thankfully walked the giant staircase down to the exit. Secret PK fight? Unthinkable at this point, even though the completion time was reasonable (34’ 34’’.34, believe me or not). The purple key and door were too hidden anyway. 8 Quote Share this post Link to post
Monsieur E Posted December 26, 2022 Map02: "Midnight Tengu" 417/417 kills, 2/4 secrets I was initially adverse to this map looking at the length of this map indicated by the UV-Max record listed on dsda and in the other writeups and for the first few sections, my suspicions were confirmed. The first segments are not bad per say but after the high intensity action of Map01 during the same runtime, it felt like a downgrade with a particular moment of disappointment being the large arena beside the cyan key area which felt empty . However, the map gradually begins to pick up place starting with the fight after getting the plasma rifle. The plasma rifle fight itself is pretty straightforward, once you depose of the two revenant turrets who can distract the cyberdemon and force an infight with the larger revenant crowd, using the teleporters, you can depose of the archviles and the fight is pretty easy after that. Following this lies the large fight where the two segments of the arena are interlinked by teleporters. I like how this arena is overlooked by a segment directly linked by the starting room as it adds a feeling of interconnectedness and gradually unraveling the map previously hidden behind locked doors. The fight itself is great fun, I found my best strategy to be to depose of the revenant crowd immediately so I can easily maneuver on the upper area which I decided to stick to for the duration of the encounter as I found it easier to manage. Throughout most of my attempts at this encounter, the cyberdemons and archviles didn't frequently teleport onto the upper floor and they mostly dealt with each other during infighting on the lower floor; I found that it's easier to bide for cover against archviles in the more densely packed upper floor strangely and they would also end up infighting. I would jump down only after the cyberdemons arrived on the upper floor since by then they have likely chopped down the enemy ranks through infighting. Pinkies are used pretty effectively here as space-deniers for the heavier hell noble infantry to close in. The fight wasn't really too difficult and it only took me an attempt or two once I decided to get rid of the revenant crowd quickly to succeed it but it was honestly a lot of fun. Another fight in a similar vein would be the secret pink room fight, I'm biased towards semi-pacifist setups :p. But what I loved here was the presentation of the room, this serene, east asian garden with a small bridge over a lake with pink hightlights against the cold contrasting blue techbase preceding it. Speaking of which, I love how this map looks, following the similar beats as Map01 with blue accents bringing life to a muted and dull techbase. I love the mixing in of nature in the aforementioned double floored arena fight and later down the line, I love the dojo harboring the bowling alley fight. Returning to the combat, the following fight is more lowkey. I just went in to plasma the teal cyberdemon very quickly and pick off the floating demons from his vantage point. Due to my positioning, the revenants clamped up and didn't come down the stairs allowing me to get rid of them easily. Following this, you return to the first areas of the map you've visited, again I like how the map feels compact rather than being a sprawl. Here, there's a small but lethal fight with archviles and barons guarding the yellow key. Once you've gotten your hands on the yellow key, it's time to enter the bowling alley fight taking place in the aforementioned dojo. This fight is really difficult, but I must say most of my attempts were foiled because I did not know about the switch beside the megasphere. Once I had figured this out, the fight was much easier. I don't know if this fight can be done without taking damage due to the barrage of hell noble projectiles while dodging cyberdemon rockets but frankly, I found it easier to wager on dodging the cyberdemon rockets than worry about the hell nobles as once the wall clears up, you can go for the megasphere. The final infight dance between the regular and junior cyberdemons is a lot of fun since you can orient yourself to only focus on dodging one side since the cyberdemons locked in are now free to move. Once this fight is over, you get a series of BFG centric fights including a large amount of archviles and a cyberdemon lineup which I imagine would wreck the nerves of anyone doing the map saveless. What I have not commented upon yet would be the excellent music selection: "Back To Jupiter" by Deadwing. I love this track, it has this calming aura that accompanies you through this map even during the high intensity stakes and was a welcome companion during my expedition through this map. In a way, this map is in opposition to map01 which was a high intensity faster paced map while this one forces you to control your trigger to only fire when necessary. Midnight Tengu had me less than impressed on first impression but by the end, had me fully captivated. 9 Quote Share this post Link to post
Ravendesk Posted December 26, 2022 10 hours ago, finnks13 said: The platforming in the yellow key fight was awful, and this fight in general felt very out of my control, with my successful attempt feeling more like a fluke than anything else (maybe I just suck). I think the easiest strategy and the only one that worked for me (and for everyone I saw doing this map) was to kill the mini cyber with plasma in a close-range fight and just stay of his platform for the rest of the fight. When you successfully dodge the cyber rockets and kill him, the rest is absolutely free. 6 Quote Share this post Link to post
Book Lord Posted December 26, 2022 5 hours ago, Ravendesk said: I think the easiest strategy and the only one that worked for me (and for everyone I saw doing this map) was to kill the mini cyber with plasma in a close-range fight and just stay of his platform for the rest of the fight. When you successfully dodge the cyber rockets and kill him, the rest is absolutely free. I can confirm this is exactly what I did on HMP, but doing so with the teal Cyberdemon on UV is far less safe, I don't think I could do it consistently. The advantage of that position is total safety from the Revenants. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post
Horus Posted December 26, 2022 (edited) Ignore…thought the video links were wrong on Nights’ post but a refresh fixed it Edited December 26, 2022 by Horus 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
NiGHTS108 Posted December 26, 2022 1 minute ago, Horus said: Ignore…thought the video links were wrong on Nights’ post but a refresh fixed it Yeah that happens sometimes 0 Quote Share this post Link to post
Jacek Bourne Posted December 26, 2022 (edited) Map03 Blind Playthrough 100% from a year ago on UV: Edited December 30, 2022 by Jacek Bourne 8 Quote Share this post Link to post
Azure_Horror Posted December 26, 2022 Re: UV Yellow Key on Midnight Tengu. I had success with both rushing the teal cyber and rushing the revs (plasma is the weapon of choice in for both strats). Second strat seems more preditable in health and ammo spending, but rushing the cyber feels faster. Both strats felt a bit RNG based, but maybe with better Doom skills RNG element could be eliminated. I wonder, what strat does @Nirvana use for this fight? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
brick Posted December 26, 2022 (edited) On 12/25/2022 at 3:03 PM, Azure_Horror said: You mean skill floor, I think. (IIRC, floor = you need this much skill; ceiling = you may use this much skill, if you want, and it will get you something useful) Yes indeed, thanks for the correction! On 12/25/2022 at 3:03 PM, Azure_Horror said: In fact, I also have some complaints about the WAD, and I am curious, if anyone else felt in a similar way. My two persistent complaints: These are among my chief complaints too, made worse by my generally lower skill with this kind of combat and pretty slow reflexes. With larger areas to maneuver I can at least stay alive a bit longer, but claustrophobic dance fights get me killed very quickly. Just like you I'm also ambivalent about the map layout; it's certainly impressive, but it doesn't leverage the interconnectivity in the same way as say Ribbiks does, so it ends up just adding more confusion without tangible gameplay benefits. This couples with actually my biggest non-combat complain with the wad, which is the way switch hunts work: you run to one end of the arena to flip a switch, which unveils a switch at the opposite end, which opens up yet another one back on the opposite corner, rinse and repeat. I've seen this setup before in other mapsets with similar combat (I think Sunlust had it in the few maps I tried), and I understand the reason for this progression, it's to prevent you from just skipping the whole fight, but it's still incredibly annoying (and when it's there to force me to do more of a combat I don't like, well...). Even when the switch locations are indicated (by a closed panel indentation or something) there are usually multiple ones to check every time, and in a couple of places you don't even know where they'll appear. On 12/25/2022 at 3:03 PM, Azure_Horror said: I would gladly read about modern mapping shortcomings, and how they appear in Fractured Worlds! On 12/25/2022 at 3:32 PM, RHhe82 said: Me too! I mean I seem to like modern maps, and FW too, although there’s gonna be a few complaints when we get to MAP04 (and to lesser extent MAP05) from me. Not shortcomings! They're my personal likes and dislikes, but it's clear from FW winning a Cacoward and being so well regarded (and mapsets of this style in general) that it has a target audience and it gives them what they want, I just happen, like our tiger parrot friend, to look for other things in Doom wads. Still you've both been very persuasive :P and have convinced me to play along even if it's with copious cheating. If you ever get tired of my complaining, just remember you asked for it :P ITYTD with saves all the way of course. Most of it with iddqd too. MAP01 - “Tomahawk” Right off the bat you're greeted with a cyberdemon at the far end. I didn't figure out until much later that there were 2 types, since they're both recolours. Someone mentioned taking their time and going very slowly through Tomahawk, as opposed to Nirvana's stated goal, and I found myself playing similarly. Rushing just got me killed very quickly, taking my time was more boring and tedious but actually doable. The music is really cool, but doesn't fit this style at all (clearly fits the intended one perfectly though). The map is small and enemy count is low, but even on ITYTD I found it pretty rough, especially with all the heavies thrown out right out of the gate, and the archviles undoing all your hard work. I found myself running around a lot trying to find out what each switch has done, which wasn't exactly fun but it isn't too bad in such a small map. There are a couple of obligatory excursions in the deadly liquid but enough radsuits to do it. The palette is a bit hit and miss, mostly the former though, with some very nice hues; I think the cyan lost souls look fantastic, I really liked the darker blue on the chaingunners, but the demons just look weird (maybe more because of COLORMAP than PLAYPAL; they actually seem to look better in the truecolour renderer). My favourite bit visually is the yellow key temple, which looks amazing from a distance, even moreso with those cyan-capped pillars that you hop across. It's by no means a gentle opener, but compared to what comes next it is relatively easy, and I did manage to complete this one fair (though with many many reloads). I found the purple switch, and saw the key but couldn't figure out how to get to it. MAP02 - “Midnight Tengu” Once again, too much running around looking for hidden switches or trying to find what a switch has done. It's more annoying here too because the map is much larger, and just assaults you with revenants and nobles in tight quarters. The ziggurats in the large pool to the south look cool but my favourite room is the plasma rifle one, with the vertical scrolling textures and the cyan/blue contrasting waterfalls. This is where I initially called it though, between the revenant/noble/cyber ambush and yet more switch running. Resuming from here, the large room to the north looks very nice, but the relentlessly teleporting baddies and the revenant/chaingunner turrets in the distance got too much. Right there was the worst instance of that back-and-forth switching: first up and down the main hall using the teleporter, then when you run out of things to press you notice (or don't) that the wall with the mancubi is now a lift, you go down the spiral staircase and hop across to press a switch, run back to the top to find a switch tucked away out of sight in the corner, then run back down the stairs because the blue armour is now on a lift. The following cyber/noble shooting gallery combines this with the noble hugfest Azure mentioned; at least the switches here are marked even before they become available, but I can't imagine the running back and forth being fun in any way. I accidentally found the purple switch by falling on the ledge, and realizing it went somewhere, but I didn't even see the key. MAP03 - “On Electric Winds” Damaging floors everywhere, very few radsuits and most tucked away for you to look for, more noble hugfests (and a mancubus one for good measure), and the usual blind running switch hunt. The cyan key was the most trollish; it seems to be on a timer and just appears behind you, in a place you've already looked, so of course I spent many minutes running around the map like an idiot looking for what changed before eventually coming back to the room and finding the key. The platforming after the cyan switch is not too bad but I still managed to fall off the first platform after raising it, at which point I think I got softlocked because there seems to be no way to lower it again (the 2nd platform does have an obvious way to do it). The yellow key also annoyed me, I don't know what causes the platforms to rise, I just kept running around the small arena and falling into the liquid not knowing what to do, and suddenly they were there. By the time I got to the circular metal room I was exhausted and that's barely halfway into the map. Big hugfest with imps and cybers, run around pushing all switches. Big hugfest with nobles and cubers, run around pushing all switches. And then the worst offender at the end, an even bigger hugfest with even more nobles and cybers, and even more obnoxiously hidden switches to run back and forth to press. If I had any illusions of beating this fair I would've definitely lost them here. Visually the map looks beautiful, the cave aesthetic fits surprisingly well with the palette, and much as I disliked that final fight the space and the arches all look very impressive. I did find both the purple key and switch this time. The secret arena looks wicked with the cyan/magenta combo going, the red provided by the tree, and those impressive black structures with magenta lights under the cyan galaxy. I also have a feeling it's easier than the final big fight, but I'm not the best to judge. Edited December 26, 2022 by brick 9 Quote Share this post Link to post
finnks13 Posted December 27, 2022 (edited) MAP03 - On Electric Winds: 28:11/25 Deaths This map is absolutely my favourite so far, it's truly something to behold. I think it's to do with the theme of the map being very different, since the majority of the map is set in a cave-system and the structures that have been created within it and I found the scenery enchanting throughout and breathtaking when it was at it's most gargantuan. Now I'm still here for the demon-killing, and this map has some very entertaining combat, but the visual design and atmosphere being so fantastic certainly helps a map along. The pacing of this map is great, I would describe it as a halfway house between Map01's breakneck, no time to catch your breath, and Map02's much more measured style. The map starts with one of it's most tough sections, and while it does get easier for a bit after that, it sets up expectations for the mean parts perfectly. You've just got a shotgun at the start, and are facing down a mini cyberdemon with an archvile overlooking most of the cave, and another spring-loaded for when you dash into a nearby cave that contains the SSG. I found the best strategy was to ignore everything and get the SSG as soon as possible, taking out the vile that's next to it and hoping that the mini cyber and the revenants nearby would get into a fight in the meanwhile. After a little bit of exploring caves, we get to the first key fight which is all about controlling monster movement. There are four pillars with archviles at the top, that enemies can lower, so you've gotta bait the archvile into starting it's attack animation while standing in a direction that's not going to lead it to another pillar. I thought this was a really cool idea for a fight, and it's executed very well. The next "big" fight was similarly gimmicky, though I don't think it worked quite as well. This fight involved pressing a switch that would magically transform a damaging floor into a non-damaging one, temporarily, and is again, a really cool idea for a fight. The problem is that the delay between pushing the switch and the floor becoming non-damaging is very long, to the point where for both waves in the fight, I pretty much ignored it, electing to use the safe area where monsters spawned in as a much smaller, but easier to managed area to fight in. Perhaps this was the intended method though, trigger the safe floor once to gain a foothold, and then use the actual safe-floor for cleanup? The other slightly clunky moment comes in the secret fight, where the indicator that a line was monster blocking fooled me into assuming it was just an impassable line for a while, making the fight much more difficult until I accidentally walked through it with a "wait, what?". Perhaps trapping the demons in small troughs could have been a bit more clear. Some other parts I really want to highlight include the small cyberdemon telefragging fight that again tests the skill of controlling monster movement, though with a much more instantaneous penalty for failure. The finale is also fantastic, involving teleporters between three large platforms - allowing for seemingly small hordes of monsters in the distance to become very close, very quickly. I struggled a little bit to get a foothold, you're limited to rockets with the three BFG shots being saved for getting you out of very bad situations, but eventually I realised that the key was ensuring that the cyberdemons were infighting and that I was on the other side of the arena to them, so they couldn't close in on me too quickly. My successful attempt happened in part because I accidentally telefragged a cyberdemon seconds into the fight! Honestly, the fact that Nirvana bothered to rig up all the separate sectors for the teleporters would have impressed me, but the fight itself is fantastic too and such a cool way to end off a map. On Electric Winds is brilliant, I would be surprised if anything that's still to come can top it because I am blown away by the sheer number of ideas on display and just how many of them work. Top that off with spectacular visuals (I can't state enough how much I love the cyan "veins" of energy that run through the entire megastructure at the eastern side of the map) and "Hey presto!" you've got one of my new favourite maps ever. Edited December 27, 2022 by finnks13 rephrasing 11 Quote Share this post Link to post
baja blast rd. Posted December 27, 2022 Fractured Worlds builds on the Ribbiks Stardate style in a couple notable ways (well more than two but let's stick with these for now!). Wads like Sunlust and Stardate came into existence in an era of relative hard wad scarcity (this was before the Content Explosion of 2018+). They approach it more from the angle of 'normalizing' difficult gameplay. This means that while plenty of maps have a really innovative, memorable setpiece of some kind -- including some truly iconic ones -- that's not really the main point. Instead the more standard, bread and butter fights are just as much the point. For example Stardate 20x6 explores innumerable combinations of "two or three closets or ledges or warp-ins, from different angles, each with a different species"; Sunlust leans a lot into "Plutonia+"-style gameplay; etc. In a world where harder wads are much rarer, there is a demand for fights that are more like the "standard repertoire," that are restrained in concept and can represent something like the genre's "normal." Fractured Worlds on the other hand looked at the standout, memorable parts and was like, wait, what if every fight was more like this -- so as a result, it's almost like every other encounter is vying for the role of "standout encounter of this map" (especially after the first two maps -- if you've played map03 you've gotten a taste of this). If you wanted to do a Top 15 Fights of Fractured Worlds rundown, you might struggle to narrow it down to 15. ;) The second is that Ribbiks's design style (back when he worked more in this aesthetic) is really clean in terms of craftmanship, how borders and seams are used, in texturing, in the proportions of scenes. It's almost mathematical and AI-generated at times. But Nirvana's visuals have a more improvisatory 'sketched' flavor to them. Part of that is also the much higher detail level in Fractured Worlds (Sunulst and the Stardates are more like 'moderate-detail' wads). If the void-highlight-color-etc. look that descended largely from wads like Deus Vult 2 and Sunder's "Obsidian Nightmare" eventually got stale around 2017-2019 (I really think it did -- I was pretty tired of it tbh), Nirvana reinvigorates it here by introducing something of the spirit of outsider art to it. It still has the "clean design tropes," but there's also a bit of artful messiness seeping in in the linework. The design is not as error-free but it's more compelling this way imo, and there's something a lot more deeply creepy to it, too, when it gets to those parts. Fractured Worlds is in my pantheon of favorite wads of all time. 12 Quote Share this post Link to post
FistMarine Posted December 27, 2022 (edited) Hey everyone! I apologize for once again being very late but unfortunately I didn't get to play/finish everything this month. A few days ago I managed to finish the entire Overboard wad and it will be the one I will talk about today. PrBoom+ 2.6.2 - UV 100% everything, continuous with saves. Blind playthrough. I used Doomwiki.org as my guide for finding secrets. I also played Going Down a bit in advance (on PrBoom+ 2.5.1.4) to get familiarized with mouldy's style of traps, though only finished its first half (reached MAP31 the last time I played), which is quite fitting. I will not repeat what others said and I will only talk a bit about each level. My deaths (quite a high number I must say) came ONLY from the New Game + versions of the existing maps, most of them actually (I think only the second NG+ map I did without dying, as it was the only one that didn't feel much different from the original map). Oh yeah and I also did the bonus MAP31 which was a little harder than I expected. The maps in general are very nicely designed, offer a very good challenge, except for some difficulty spikes in most NG+ versions of existing maps where it becomes quite chaotic at times but at least you have some prior knowledge from your first time playing the maps. The design of maps reminds me of Duke Caribbean: Life's a Beach! Anyway here is a short review of Overboard (and hope to get to playing/reviewing Running Late 2 before it's too late). MAP01: Cruisn'n UAC / MAP08: Cruisn'n UAC + A nice intro map. The beginning can be a bit tricky with the ammo because you may run out of it but eventually you will pick up more stuff to kill the enemies. The invisibility secret is very helpful against the zombies at beginning. After clearing the rooms, you must eventually get inside the boat. The red key trap isn't too bad, I recommend quickly pressing that switch because there is a surprise cyber, who will get squished upon pressing the switch. You wait for a while while fighting some imps and hell knights, then once the cybie is squished, grab the red key. After that, grab the SSG as well as the blue armor secret, go back up, kill the remaining enemies and that's it. Easy map. However, on the NG+, you get the Cyber roaming at the beginning, who actually managed to surprise kill me once. Then later I had a hard time with the red key trap which was much harder because my other 4 deaths all came from the ArchViles here and only after I had to do the fight the hard way, I realized pressing that switch summons the INVULNERABILITY! It's not too bad because my lucky 5th attempt cleared this room without taking damage (maybe the RNG decided to allow me to easily win this time) while still having 100% health and 50% armor left and then I got the invul which was useful for taking some leftover monsters and most of Cyber's health with the plasma. Then backtracked for supplies (including the secret) to have a full blue armor for the next map. Great map overall! Though the NG+ was a bit insane at times. :P MAP02: Skeleton Coast / MAP09: Skeleton Coast + Another nice map and continuing directly from the previous one (I like the continuity between the maps, which was also present in Mouldy's previous work, Going Down). This one seems to take place on an island and there are some interesting fights right there. I remember doing the mistake (in both versions of the map) of grabbing the Fuel Can when already fighting monsters and this unleashed even more monsters but somehow I was able to do it just fine. It was quite interesting and I even ended up with two blue armors I didn't need at the end of the level (at least in the NG+ version). What felt a bit of a slap in the face is that there was an invulnerability secret in the NG+ version of the map (in the place of the Plasma Gun in the original map) which I got after I killed all monsters but since I handled this map just fine without invulnerability, I guess I could say I didn't need it. Obviously still grabbed it at the end (and other goodies) for 100% completion. :P BTW a nice detail I liked is the fuel can apparently replaces the red skull key, if I'm not mistaken. Oh wait, looking at Doomwiki, it actually replaces the blue key. Excellent map. Looking forward to the next one! MAP03: Depth Charge / MAP10: Depth Charge + Another interesting map, this one taking place inside the submarine. The invisibility was very helpful early on in the original version, though it was absent in NG+. The original version of the map is relatively tame (there are still some tricks included in the map that you have to be careful, like barrels exploding at one point) but the NG+ is quite a lot harder. I nearly did the NG+ version without dying but first time got killed by a Baron fireball right when trying to run to that invulnerability and second time killed by a Cyber. But overall, I don't think there was such a difficulty spike as other maps, I think I found the NG+ version of this map easier than the NG+ version of the first map. Another great map overall! MAP04: Cacotoa / MAP11: Cacotoa + Wow! That was quite a bit of a difficulty spike. The archviles are known to cause a LOT of trouble if not dispatched quickly but what's annoying is when they are "hidden" behind many powerful enemies, while they can blast you with impunity. The original version of the map had an invulnerability secret that was somewhat hidden (I only noticed it after I had to load an earlier save because I already exhausted the extra health/armor supplies and wanted to have some extra for the next map, the invul is located where an Arachnotron can be seen) but the NG+ has more enemies and the secrets are a bit changed. The invulnerability now replaces the blue armor secret at beginning (the invul secret later now replaced by the BFG). I did a terrible mistake in grabbing the invulnerability early on (in the NG+ version) because I should have saved it for the end when the archies show up. It led to me saving in a bad spot (not necessary with low health but was definitely struggling for survival with many enemies coming from many directions) and I briefly considered restarting the map and trying from beginning without wasting that invulnerability but then I pushed on after the 10th attempt/death and I was able to get out of that problematic spot and get my sweet revenge in taking out everyone after finding a "safe" spot (and those rocket/cell boxes I missed earlier)! I find weird how the RNG takes a turn like that (like in NG+ version of first map). Die several times and on last attempt, you somehow can get through without any trouble. A chaotic but fun map. The NG+ was a bit frustrating but that's because I should have saved the invul for later. I learned my lesson from now on, don't worry! ;) MAP05: Archi-Pelago / MAP12: Archi-Pelago + Another interesting map, it really shows how creative and fun the encounters can be. I nearly died at some times but got saved by grabbing the megasphere in the last second! Both times with the available megaspheres. I like that there aren't inescapable pits, you can fall down there but you can still walk just fine at the cost of 10 dmg per second. It's quite forgiving actually. Of course you shouldn't stay there too long but I appreciate that mouldy didn't resort to making inescapable pits to heavily punish you. I also liked that archvile at the end of the level trying to "run away" with the boat. It was funny. However, the NG+ is even more chaotic. Most of the map plays the same. But then after a while, you get fucked up by the horde of archviles that shows up at some point. I died a couple times here (I saved a few seconds before they showed up), which signifies the fact that you MUST rush to that invulnerability over there. Then just use the BFG against them and try killing as many as possible before your invul runs out. Easier said than done because even when invincible, you will get thrown further away but if you can get in time and kill them (at least most of them) before invulnerability expires, you should be fine. Then after a while the Cybers show up. Assuming there are still plenty of monsters alive, you can try getting infighting. You can also teleport away if you want, while monsters are infighting. You can watch how the kill count goes up and after a while, return to the arena and finish off the remaining survivors. The comic archie will still be there in the boat in NG+, which is once again, hilarious. Great map! MAP06: Seaside Siege / MAP13: Seaside Siege + Now time for the finale! There are quite a couple hundreds of monsters in the normal version, I forgot exactly, I think they were nearly 500. But in NG+, they are 666 in total! The normal version is challenging and fun. But the NG+ is quite crazy because you have all those damn imps at beginning that were difficult to get through them, EVEN with playing continuously and starting with everything maxed out. Maybe I missed some proper strategy but I got my ass kicked quite a bit by the imp horde at beginning in the NG+ version, as I tried running while shooting (Plasma/BFG and even SSG/Rockets sometimes) but sometimes I still got overwhelmed and killed. After the first bunch of attempts, I managed to get to a "safe" spot at the lighthouse and eventually things got better as enemies started to die eventually and then I could handle the remaining imp horde when there was some space to dodge. At this point, the rest of the map turned into a cakewalk. Not to mention you are given plenty of resources and most of the map plays the same as before, just the main difference being everything is thrown at you from the start. Of course I still had one moment of shock when I used the toilet, only to teleport directly in front of the three Cybers! Ouch! I found 2/4 secrets myself (BFG and Invulnerability) which helped a LOT later on, for example I used the invulnerability for the red key trap but maybe I should have used against the cybers, though things turned out fine in the end as I still had about 140% health and armor after clearing everyone! Of course Doomwiki helped to find the rest secrets later on. And then in NG+, knowing where secrets are (though still had to look up one secret as I didn't remember its exact location) helped a lot. Oh and nice to know that DoomGuy and his mom are still on good terms, which is a nice reference to Going Down's intermission texts. Definitely a great finale to an excellent mapset! MAP07: The End (aka C U Later, Suckers) Funny short map! I like how it says YOU WINNED THE GAME! Also the surfing imp (the only enemy present in map) has apparently learned to talk in a meme language. I don't like memes in general but I still found this funny. Killing the imp causes the boat to explode, then you die and get sent to MAP08 with just the pistol. MAP14: The Actual End The actual ending map! I like the references to DOOM 2, Going Down and various other neat things, like the fact DoomGuy was playing DOOM 2. And Romero (speaking in meme language just like the imp from MAP07) showing up in the elevator. Got a laugh out of me, then promptly killed him with the Rocket Launcher. Too bad you don't advance to the bonus map, instead you get sent to DOOM2 MAP15 (as expected). MAP31: Demo Island Bonus map time! Because MAP14 sends you to original MAP15 from DOOM 2, this meant that you must warp to MAP31 yourself with cheats or command line parameters (I did the latter). The map is actually shown 3 times in the demo loop, with the player gradually understanding what to do to overcome the big horde of imps. That's right, you fight against a THOUSAND of imps! And it's actually a lot harder than you think. First, punch that box and then run to the left side to grab the BFG and the cell packs (remember that you have 300 cells maximum!). Then quickly grab the megasphere until the imps show up and then start shooting! You must make sure to not run of ammo and health at same time! This is what gives this map a greater challenge than it seems. You must keep an eye on the ammo and the cell packs while watching your health/armor and dodging the fireballs. It's a bit luck based to not take too many damaging fireballs before the second megasphere teleports into the level. I've had attempts ruined because the megasphere decided to teleport right in next second after I died or ran out of ammo and either didn't reach the box OR DoomGuy decided to switch to the fucking pistol when I tried to grab the cell packs right as soon as emptying my cells, which wasted precious time and getting overwhelmed by imps. Once finished, press that switch (which uses the switch texture from Duke3D) to finish the level and get sent to DOOM2 MAP16! It was a neat little map but turned a bit miserable due to my bad luck when playing it, as it took me like 10-15 attempts to do it, while I felt it was a map that shouldn't have taken more than 5 attempts. Would have probably liked more if it was also in MAP15 slot and there was a death exit at the end of MAP14 instead, though I understand this may have been done to keep it hidden or a bonus challenge or something like that. Definitely a short, interesting map and worth checking out! Overboard Total Deaths: 44 (MAP08, MAP10-13, MAP31) Overboard Overall: Fantastic wad! I really enjoyed my time with it, though I don't have a favorite map, I'd say ALL maps were fun and solid. Wasn't too fond on a few NG+ versions of some of the maps and MAP31 was a bit miserable to me because of plain bad luck with dying in many stupid ways but in the end, Overboard was a fantastic wad with every map being good! A very solid release! Cacoward very well deserved. Congratulations, Cyriak! :) Screenshots: Spoiler Votes for the next month: +++ Community Chest 2 +++ Doom 2 in Spain Only +++ Number One Kill, Number One Extra and Number One Kill The Next Generation I was going to play Running Late 2 but unfortunately I got a bit burned-off/exhausted from playing custom Doom wads, so I'd rather spend some time playing Heretic wads instead, considering today is Heretic's 28th anniversary of the registered 3-episode version (I've already beat the original release, last time was back in April 2021 when Heretic was chosen for the Megawad club, which was also the first time I joined the DW megawad club) and felt a bit of taking a break from DOOM. I might play Running Late 2 in next few days and write something about it until the year ends. I don't think I have the time to try Fractured Worlds and I'm put off by the difficulty judging from the comments, I just don't feel dealing with slaughtermaps in this period of time. Have a nice week and a late Merry Christmas! Edited December 27, 2022 by FistMarine 6 Quote Share this post Link to post
Azure_Horror Posted December 27, 2022 (edited) I am still going to write reviews for Running Late 2 and Fractured Worlds maps. But right now, we have a very interesting discussion about Fractured Worlds minutae, and their relation to "modernist" mapping. For now, I will focus on that. 14 hours ago, brick said: These are among my chief complaints too, made worse by my generally lower skill with this kind of combat and pretty slow reflexes. With larger areas to maneuver I can at least stay alive a bit longer, but claustrophobic dance fights get me killed very quickly. Just like you I'm also ambivalent about the map layout; it's certainly impressive, but it doesn't leverage the interconnectivity in the same way as say Ribbiks does, so it ends up just adding more confusion without tangible gameplay benefits. This couples with actually my biggest non-combat complain with the wad, which is the way switch hunts work: you run to one end of the arena to flip a switch, which unveils a switch at the opposite end, which opens up yet another one back on the opposite corner, rinse and repeat. I've seen this setup before in other mapsets with similar combat (I think Sunlust had it in the few maps I tried), and I understand the reason for this progression, it's to prevent you from just skipping the whole fight, but it's still incredibly annoying (and when it's there to force me to do more of a combat I don't like, well...). 1) The thing is, there is no need to do claustrophobic fights to create challenging encounters. With good layering of threats, even relatively spacious arenas can be deadly. Such design is abundant in @Deadwing's Ozonia, but it can also be a part of more difficult WADs. In fact, a few fights in Fractured Worlds are exactly like that: For example, consider the rocket launcher fight in map 02 on UV. The danger comes not from dense monster crowds, but from a well defended archvile and a pair of flanking arachnotons on far side of the Ziggurat lake. This is almost a polar opposite of hug-fest! Looks pretty similar to a miniature Ozonia setpiece, but the Fractured Worlds version is considerably more difficult. I am dissapointed that such fights are very rare in Fractured Worlds... And BTW, this particular encounter is a bit flawed. For once, the archvile can randomly get stuck in a mancubus room nearby, making everything considerably easier. Moreover, without a secret rocket stash, there is a risk of auto-switching from rocket launcher to SSG in a worst possible moment. This is a layer of aggravting diffculty which can be completely shut off by a secret! IMHO, annoying elements should be either embraced or avoided, with no awkward in-between solutions. This "find a secret to avoid aggravtion" design is very demoralising, because it punishses non-exploration instead of rewarding exploration! 2) Personally, I do not find Fractured Worlds maps confusing. However, I agree that large map size in Fractured Worlds offers little in gameplay depatment. This interconnectedness feels kinda... Pointless? Self-contradictory? Excessive? Cannot find a correct world, but I hope everyone gets, what I am trying to convey. As a concrete example: if Midnight Tengu had been split in two maps by the Yellow Door, I would absolutely love the resulting two levels! But right now, Midnight Tengu leaves a much more mixed impression on me. The first half is too chill, and the second half is too overkill. Sometimes, I wanna get to the crazy part right away. Sometimes, I wanna avoid over the top encounters and end the map after the chill part. The current Midnight Tengu allows neither. (It is still a good map, honest! Would you put your pitchforks down? Please?) 2+) I agree that Ribbiks' maps incorporate interconnectedness much better! All big Wormwood Maps are super-interconnected, and this interconneconectedness feels right at home! It sometimes leads for non-linearity, and sometimes simply leads to a longer map, but it feels... appropriate, for a lack of better word. 3) Yeah, compared to Wormwood-s, the switches in Fractured Worlds feel a bit excessive. Some of them could have been removed completely, I feel. Maybe even half... 14 hours ago, brick said: Not shortcomings! They're my personal likes and dislikes, but it's clear from FW winning a Cacoward and being so well regarded (and mapsets of this style in general) that it has a target audience and it gives them what they want, I just happen, like our tiger parrot friend, to look for other things in Doom wads. Still you've both been very persuasive :P and have convinced me to play along even if it's with copious cheating. If you ever get tired of my complaining, just remember you asked for it :P 4) Eh, a line between "a personal dislike" and "shortcoming" is very elusive and fuzzy. I never expected to enjoy Wormwood III, or Running Late 2 as much as I did, because they are outside of my favorite Doom genres. But turns out that some things can be made more appealing to my tastes, seemingly without sacrificing their core appeal! Is this a pure "personal like/dislike" thing? Or did we enter the realm of "things that are just fun and good in general"? I have no idea. 5) Glad that you are playing along! Cheats can be legit too, and playing hard WADs with cheats should not be discouraged! BTW, I still would gladly read about things you dislike about modern mapping in general :P It may help me to better contemplate and verbalise the whole "modern map" concept, you know? 8 hours ago, baja blast rd. said: Fractured Worlds on the other hand looked at the standout, memorable parts and was like, wait, what if every fight was more like this -- so as a result, it's almost like every other encounter is vying for the role of "standout encounter of this map" (especially after the first two maps -- if you've played map03 you've gotten a taste of this). If you wanted to do a Top 15 Fights of Fractured Worlds rundown, you might struggle to narrow it down to 15. ;) That's why I like Fractured Worlds! However, for me Fractured Worlds falls short of "every other encounter can be a standout". This summer, my experience on UV was like... - Map 01 on UV - Success! Almost every single fight is a standout! Wonderful! - Map 02 on UV - Success! Lots of standout fights. Some of them get on my nerves, but that's UV difficulty for me! - Map 03 on UV - ... ...... failure. In particular, the whole stretch from cyan switch up to the BFG fight felt meh and boring. Even the water-switch battle for the blue key! (imps, cybers, revs, cean slime becoming red - Yep, I am talking about THAT fight) And I dunno, why is this. I mean, I do not mind prolonged slaughter battles. I no-saved map 29 of 1000 lines 3 for fun. I do not mind cruel imp-hordes. I enjoy start of the Going Down map 17. I do not mind cyber snipers, damaging floors or rev hordes either. And the difficulty was not a problem... I played harder things. Despite that, I found the whole fight boring. Nevermind many other fights nearby. The BFG fight is better, but come on! Yet another cyber-noble fest? We had 5 (!) such fights already! The BFG fight may be a standout, but it is not a very outsanding standout. - Map 04 on UV - I definirtely remember completing this map on UV. I think there were some standout fights too... But I forgot completely, what the hell happened on that map beyond secret punch-out and yet another noble-cyber fest in the very end. Edited December 27, 2022 by Azure_Horror 7 Quote Share this post Link to post
akolai Posted December 27, 2022 9 hours ago, baja blast rd. said: Top 15 Fights of Fractured Worlds rundown good idea 15) map02: plasma fight - elegant in its simplicity, there are a variety of ways to play this fight but all revolve around sensible positioning - not to mention the stacked chevrons, which have no business looking this good 14) map04: four cybs - dancing with cybers in constricted spaces will always be interesting, but the vile wave is an evil surprise that changes everything 13) map02: vile rush - the spectacle goes a long way, but the technique is still surprisingly in-depth, assuming you dumped all your cells in the previous fight 12) map01: opening - an exciting battlefield with several potential sources of pressure around each corner 11) /// 10) /// 9) map01: ending - a simple and claustrophobic arrangement that perfectly sets the tone for the rest of the wad 8) /// 7) map03: ending - interesting setup that incentivises staying in place, which clashes with how one would normally handle this type of fight 6) map03: bfg fight - extremely intimidating spectacle that becomes more manageable with sensible movement and decision making 5) map04: ending - unique arrangement with a smashing visual setup, presents a plethora of opportunities at varying levels of risk, with the oppressive flesh wall and second phase acting as soft timers, mandating heavier risk-taking 4) map02: cyber alley - takes a simple observation (differently coloured cybs can infight) and creates a brutal and demanding crossfire 3) map03: blood/water - highly memorable gimmick that acts as a great example of health used as a commodity, i.e. 'spending' health via the damaging floor to gain a better position against the horde 2) /// 1) /// more to be filled out as their days become available :) (doesn't include the secret maps, despite playing the main wad several times over i've yet to touch 31/32) 11 Quote Share this post Link to post
RHhe82 Posted December 27, 2022 MAP04: Hyperspeed Descent. Played on DSDA v0.24, HMP, PS. 356/379 K, 4/5 S, 39/40 I. Completion time 46:56. Another fun level, although I feel it's a bit more linear than MAP03, and perhaps slightly easier -- I midfight-saved only in the final fight, that bordered on save-scumming. So, I didn't lower down difficulty, but I still I should. One fight I managed to cheese, the one in the blue crescent-shaped area; an archvile shot me and propelled me out of the arena and take care of the foes in relative safety. Sadly I couldn't find the purple key and the secret fight. I couldn't reach the purple door area, so I'm not sure if that has to be done at the start of the map. I don't think so, but at the time of writing this I don't know. Some of the switches were really well hidden, especially the one you come across very early. I never saw the switch, just pressed walls in desperation. The blue crackle wall switch I'm ashamed I didn't spot earlier. Knowing all this, I should think the purple key is somehow accessed by finding some very obscure(d) switch somewhere, but for the sake of the club I don't want to fire up UDB. Perhaps I'll try and find it before posting this review in a week's time or so. Addendum: I gave into UDB, and I'm still not 100% sure, but FFS, it looks like you need to do it at the very start of the level, or not at all. I know, I'm not entitled to 100% secrets, but ugh, I don't much like this sort of design. But that's alright; even when I discount the hour wasted on looking for the final secret, this would still have been my least favourite map so far. And in the case of Fractured Worlds, that means merely a very good map. That missable secret really does sour the experience for me, though. 7 Quote Share this post Link to post
Ravendesk Posted December 27, 2022 1 hour ago, akolai said: good idea 15) map02: plasma fight - elegant in its simplicity, there are a variety of ways to play this fight but all revolve around sensible positioning - not to mention the stacked chevrons, which have no business looking this good 14) map04: four cybs - dancing with cybers in constricted spaces will always be interesting, but the vile wave is an evil surprise that changes everything 13) map02: vile rush - the spectacle goes a long way, but the technique is still surprisingly in-depth, assuming you dumped all your cells in the previous fight 12) map01: opening - an exciting battlefield with several potential sources of pressure around each corner 11) /// 10) /// 9) map01: ending - a simple and claustrophobic arrangement that perfectly sets the tone for the rest of the wad 8) /// 7) map03: ending - interesting setup that incentivises staying in place, which clashes with how one would normally handle this type of fight 6) map03: bfg fight - extremely intimidating spectacle that becomes more manageable with sensible movement and decision making 5) map04: ending - unique arrangement with a smashing visual setup, presents a plethora of opportunities at varying levels of risk, with the oppressive flesh wall and second phase acting as soft timers, mandating heavier risk-taking 4) map02: cyber alley - takes a simple observation (differently coloured cybs can infight) and creates a brutal and demanding crossfire 3) map03: blood/water - highly memorable gimmick that acts as a great example of health used as a commodity, i.e. 'spending' health via the damaging floor to gain a better position against the horde 2) /// 1) /// more to be filled out as their days become available :) (doesn't include the secret maps, despite playing the main wad several times over i've yet to touch 31/32) Did not enjoy map 04 secret fight? It would be on top of my list :) 1 Quote Share this post Link to post
RHhe82 Posted December 27, 2022 4 hours ago, Azure_Horror said: 11 hours ago, baja blast rd. said: Fractured Worlds on the other hand looked at the standout, memorable parts and was like, wait, what if every fight was more like this -- so as a result, it's almost like every other encounter is vying for the role of "standout encounter of this map" (especially after the first two maps -- if you've played map03 you've gotten a taste of this). If you wanted to do a Top 15 Fights of Fractured Worlds rundown, you might struggle to narrow it down to 15. ;) That's why I like Fractured Worlds! I can see why that can be, but as we're talking about shortcomings of modern wads, I sometimes get exhausted by constant bombardment of standout fights. That may sound a bit counterintuitive, but I sometimes feel physical exhaustion when tackling on a map in a standout wad like Fractured Worlds. It's not like I want stupid, boring or such fights, but I guess wouldn't mind a rhythmic approach to maps, those moments of easier fights, even incidental combat to allow me to catch my breath or mend my bruised ego after spectacular humiliation. However, having said this, I'm not sure this approach would make (for instance) FW necessarily better. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post
baja blast rd. Posted December 27, 2022 To be clear, when I say that I'm not referring to intensity or difficulty, but rather the underpinning concepts/ideas of (difficult) setups. In this language, a "supporting fight" or one that is more conceptually low-key is one that doesn't really aim to have a particularly novel concept or gimmick or idea; it's just more bread and butter hard Doom. A standout encounter tries to. That variable can work independently of difficulty. For example this last fight in Sunlust m19 is conceptually a pretty standard multi-directional space-invasion battle; it's more just "bread and butter hard Doom." The "standout" fight is the "alternating archvile" fight before it. Both are in the same ballpark of difficulty (I've actually always found the vile fight way easier, even). I think you're referring to a somewhat different discourse. I'm just talking about concepts/ideas, not difficulty. 7 Quote Share this post Link to post
Andromeda Posted December 27, 2022 1 hour ago, akolai said: 7) map03: ending - interesting setup that incentivises staying in place, which clashes with how one would normally handle this type of fight Yeah, that's how I solved it too, interesting how the club seems to have used the opposite strategy. 4 Quote Share this post Link to post
Azure_Horror Posted December 27, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, RHhe82 said: I can see why that can be, but as we're talking about shortcomings of modern wads, I sometimes get exhausted by constant bombardment of standout fights. That may sound a bit counterintuitive, but I sometimes feel physical exhaustion when tackling on a map in a standout wad like Fractured Worlds. It's not like I want stupid, boring or such fights, but I guess wouldn't mind a rhythmic approach to maps, those moments of easier fights, even incidental combat to allow me to catch my breath or mend my bruised ego after spectacular humiliation. However, having said this, I'm not sure this approach would make (for instance) FW necessarily better. I get you! I also have this problem occasionally. It hit me hard during Valiant playthrough: a series of good, enjoyable maps merged into one amorphous blob. In the end, I needed a big break, before returning to Valiant. Occasionally similar thing happens to me even during a single map, like when I was playing @DMPhobos's Martian Midnight (map 09 of 1000 lines 3) for the DWMw Club a year ago. It seems to me that it is not enough to have a set of outsdanding things. Those things should also be correctly arranged. With bad arrngement, the whole will be worse then the sum of its parts. But with a right arrangemnt, the whole will be even greater! This is one of the reasons, why I love @Deadwing's Ozonia, French Doomers' 180 MPV, @Grain of Salt & @Ribbiks' Wormwood III, or @Doomkid-helmed Ray Mohawk Duology . Both the mapsets and their individual maps are arranged exceptionally well, greatly enchancing the whole experience. BTW, I feel the same way about @mouldy's Overboard and @A2Rob's Running Late 2. Fractured Worlds felt less impressive to me in this particular regard. But it is great in other ways... However, if we are talking about Fractured Worlds exhaustion in particular, then I felt exhausted not from "Quality Tsunami", but from the sheer scale and difficulty of the setups. 1 hour ago, baja blast rd. said: To be clear, when I say that I'm not referring to intensity or difficulty, but rather the underpinning concepts/ideas of (difficult) setups. In this language, a "supporting fight" or one that is more conceptually low-key is one that doesn't really aim to have a particularly novel concept or gimmick or idea; it's just more bread and butter hard Doom. A standout encounter tries to. That variable can work independently of difficulty. For example this last fight in Sunlust m19 is conceptually a pretty standard multi-directional space-invasion battle; it's more just "bread and butter hard Doom." The "standout" fight is the "alternating archvile" fight before it. Both are in the same ballpark of difficulty (I've actually always found the vile fight way easier, even). I think you're referring to a somewhat different discourse. I'm just talking about concepts/ideas, not difficulty. I think that @RHhe82's notion may also relate to concepts. At the very least, difficulty too can contribute to something being "outsanding". But "standout" things can be tiering in many different ways. For example, they are often harder to conceptualise than "bread and butter" things. But my previous post dealt more with "outstanding"-ness being somewhat subjective. With map 03 from Fractured Worlds being a convinient example of my personal perception of "outsatnding" (or relative lack thereof). BTW, personally I lean into placing that final fight from Sunlust map 19 into "standout" category. Personal tastes do be like that sometimes :^). 1 hour ago, Andromeda said: Yeah, that's how I solved it too, interesting how the club seems to have used the opposite strategy. And this is another reason why I like Fractured Worlds! Fights having multiple different non-trivial strategies! Edited December 27, 2022 by Azure_Horror 6 Quote Share this post Link to post
Monsieur E Posted December 27, 2022 Map03: “On Electric Winds”600/600 kills, 4/6 secrets On Electric Winds starts off in a natural cavern and is much more modest initially, hitting you with smaller but still lethal fight often on damaging floor. As you progress, you begin to unearth a familiar cyan accented techbase guarded by demons in increasing challenging setups. Particular highlights that stand out to me in this earlier section would be the mancubi-teal cyberdemon setup where the red pattern on the floor indicates the demons teleporting in urging you depose of the mancubi duo before the cyberdemon arrives, the nearby hell noble/lost soul fight, and the archvile encounter with them locating on lifts which monsters can lower forcing you to dance with one at a time and prevent them from lowering the lifts while randomly moving around. After the platforming section overseen by a teal cyberdemon, we arrive at a circular room which leads to perhaps the hardest encounter in this map. The setup on paper is rather simple, the cyan floor is damaging and you can flood the room with the non-damaging blood to counteract this for a bit by pressing a switch located in the arena. Beside the switch are walls which represent this mechanic, which I imagine is supposed to be you messing with the fluid levels, alongside indicating when the damaging floor returns, and simply pressing the switch will reset it. The problem is, there is a noticeable delay between you pressing the switch and the floor actually changing, which will cost you precious health. If this interval had been shorter, the fight would've been much more enjoyable I feel. The actual encounter drops a massive crowd of imps for you to chop through as they hound you, keeping you eye on the change back to damaging floor while dodging cyberdemon turrets. After this, you may press 3 switches which are located behind the imp teleport destinations which unleash a revenant gang while the teal cyberdemons teleport on the ground floor. The only way I was able to do this fight was by triggering both waves at once and simply weaving through the crowd until the exit teleporter lowers. I think the damaging floor mechanic worked better here since I only used it a maximum of two times in this strategy which I took only a few attempts to get compared to my tens of deaths to my prior strategies. Stx-Vile's UV-Max record employs a similar strat but I'm curious if there are any other consistent ones which I didn't recognize. Following this lies the BFG fight located in a very well decorated room with a garden theme contrasting against the techbase surrounding it, the fight itself is a lot of fun. The low health of the teal cyberdemons allowed several of them to be deployed at once since they were easily cut down with the BFG allowing you to decide how many to eliminate and how many to juggle while forcing infighting between the hell noble spectators. After this lies a regular cyberdemon telefrag puzzle repurposing the prior circular room, this is a fun puzzle but because of the small delay after teleporting where you can't move, you may catch a cyber rocket which spells your doom avoiding which is out of your hand when you return to the arena. After this, you have arrived at a wonder. I love the presentation of this map and how it starts off natural gradually revealing its mechanical underbelly until you stand infront of the massive monolithic techbase. In the small outpost you encounter early you, there are two doors you can't access until later parts of the map (after the BFG fight) which gives a sensation of interconnectivity all of which builds up to the structure. This map feels like it crafts a narrative about a technological giant which had been constructed deep below the earth which you adventure towards throughout the map. And that's not even saying anything about the actual structure which looks stunning. Fractured Worlds has been a beautiful mapset so far and Map03 is no exception, in my opinion, running past so many of its competitors including a lot of its design roots. Returning to the map, ironically the biggest disappointment is the secret fight which feels like a step down in the visual department, just another arena suspended in a void (which is purple this time at least :p) and a pretty straight forward cyberdemon infight setup. But fear not, the final fight does not disappoint. There are three platforms linked by teleporting to each other and on the furthermost one will be two cyberdemons in stasis alongside the switches to start the encounter. Once you do, a massive army of hell nobles teleport in from the starting platform and gradually begin closing in towards you. I preferred to have the cyberdemons get busy infighting so that I can focus on defending against hell nobles closing in from the furthermost platform. Eventually, the nobles will start pouring onto the platform and because there are a number of teleporters, the hell nobles don't clump up while teleporting in and easily spread out. As the cyberdemons lose their infights, the hell nobles by then have become less a meatwall and moreso oriented in clusters or individually spread across the platforming to be dealt with overall. It's another very enjoyable fight capping off another excellent map. On Electric Winds is a spectacular map but unfortunately, a few missteps held it back from being quite as good as it wanted to be. Still a great map though. 10 Quote Share this post Link to post
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