Thoughts on Crash being in new Doom/Quake?

[ReaperAA]

  On 1/9/2023 at 11:50 PM, Murdoch said:

I hate straight gender and race swaps because it's a lazy cop out, saying "eh, we can't be assed coming up with an interesting female/non white character so let's just change this character." The invasion is filled with potential for interesting side stories, a la the original Half Life.

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Agreed. Half Life did this in the best way. Have different characters go through their own struggles, and thus have their own side stories, in the same universe

[BGreener]

  On 1/9/2023 at 11:23 PM, Rudolph said:

I can easily come up with a decent pitch right now:

 

After DoomGuy's death, a reclusive cult recovers the Praetor Suit and takes up residence inside the Fortress of Doom where they worship the Doom Slayer and vow to protect humanity against further demonic threat. When that happens, you, as an initiate, has to go through some kind of trial that serves as a tutorial to earn the right to wear the fabled Praetor Suit and take the fight to the demons as the new Doom Slayer.

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An interesting pitch for sure. We just still don’t have the proper resources to know how well this would go over with the current and potential playerbase, and IdSoft is in less of a position to take risks than they were with Doom 3. When it comes to Crash or “Doomgal”, even if it amounts to sweet nothings, we at least have Hugo on record talking about the idea.

 

If it ends up being true that most people would not care who they play in a Doom game, I’d suggest to just keep it simple and bring back the Slayer for the amount of people who would care.

[mrthejoshmon]

  On 1/9/2023 at 11:50 PM, Murdoch said:

 

They should not replace the main Doom character as we know him. However to play as another character for a side game or side mission I think would be fine. Someone who's not been given godlike powers and has to rely more on intelligence and resourcefulness than sheer brute force. The scalpel to the Slayer's sledgehammer, as it were. This would be an ideal chance to bring in a female protagonist in a way that actually makes sense, compliments the whole narrative and is not just a gender swap for the sake of it. I hate straight gender and race swaps because it's a lazy cop out, saying "eh, we can't be assed coming up with an interesting female/non white character so let's just change this character." The invasion is filled with potential for interesting side stories, a la the original Half Life.

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Absolutely agree.

 

Half-Life's expansions were incredible in the way they told different perspectives by using completely different characters, for instance I think Doom Eternal would be a very interesting and fun experience if played through the eyes of someone like a UAC grunt or an ARC operative (potential mech fights? Hell yeah).

 

  On 1/9/2023 at 11:23 PM, Rudolph said:

I can easily come up with a decent pitch right now:

 

After DoomGuy's death, a reclusive cult recovers the Praetor Suit and takes up residence inside the Fortress of Doom where they worship the Doom Slayer and vow to protect humanity against further demonic threat. When that happens, you, as an initiate, has to go through some kind of trial that serves as a tutorial to earn the right to wear the fabled Praetor Suit and take the fight to the demons as the new Doom Slayer.

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Uh,

 

You do realise the Praetor Suit is mostly just armour that enhances him and not where the actual powers come from.

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The power is from the Maykr Divinity Machine.

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by mrthejoshmon

[HeatedChocolate]

Doom-universe survival horror or tactical shooter sounds interesting. Demon invasions are bound to be legitimately terrifying if you're not a chiseled-jaw, heavy-weapon toting marine. Hell, even just being a normal marine would be scary as hell, Fighting a cyberdemon, or even a hellknight would be a traumatizing experience methinks.

[Rudolph]

  On 1/10/2023 at 1:50 PM, mrthejoshmon said:

You do realise the Praetor Suit is mostly just armour that enhances him and not where the actual powers come from.

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I am disappointed that you did not notice the parallel between my pitch and the beginning of Fallout 2. :(

 

Anyway, Doomguy needed no Divinity Machine to kick demon asses again and again; Id can either retcon that aspect out or, if they really feel like still giving a convoluted supernatural justification for the player-character's ability to shoot guns and punch monsters, have the new Doom Slayer start off underpowered and have their quest involve searching for another MacGuffin that would help them unlock their full potential in their fight against the forces of Hell or something. Again, I really do not think it would be difficult to come with a decent plot that does not revolve around DoomGuy.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Rudolph

[mrthejoshmon]

  On 1/10/2023 at 2:26 PM, Rudolph said:

I am disappointed that you did not notice the parallel between my pitch and the beginning of Fallout 2. :(

 

Anyway, Doomguy needed no Divinity Machine to kick demon asses again and again; Id can either retcon that aspect out or, if they really feel like still giving a convoluted supernatural justification for the player-character's ability to shoot guns and punch monsters, have the new Doom Slayer start off underpowered and have their quest involve searching for another MacGuffin that would help them unlock their full potential in their fight against the forces of Hell or something. Again, I really do not think it would be difficult to come with a decent plot that does not revolve around DoomGuy.

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I thought that was where you were going, I didn't mention it because I wasn't entirely sure and that's my bad :V

 

Doomguy didn't need those abilities no, you are right, the problem stems from the actual gameplay tying so heavily behind the convoluted plot that they have. The actual gameplay movement and combat abilities are heavily tied to it.

 

Now, I'm not the lore master behind Id's game, all in all they absolutely could go with whatever they want with it, I'm just saying that replacing their main guy with someone mostly unknown yet is also just as adept would rub me (and possibly others) the wrong way.

Edited January 10, 2023 by mrthejoshmon

[Rudolph]

  On 1/10/2023 at 4:20 PM, mrthejoshmon said:

Now, I'm not the lore master behind Id's game, all in all they absolutely could go with whatever they want with it, I'm just saying that replacing their main guy with someone mostly unknown yet is also just as adept would rub me (and possibly others) the wrong way.

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I suppose, but then again, for the longest time, it was not exactly clear whether the protagonist in most Doom games - including Doom 2016 - was even supposed to be the same person - with the exception of Resurrection of Evil and The Lost Mission. Doomguy is not B.J. Blazkowicz after all, so it seems rather silly to me that players would take issue with the identity of a mostly silent and masked protagonist whose only defining trait is that they can shoot guns and punch monsters; the lore might have gotten more convoluted, but the Doom protagonist remained a mostly empty slate.

 

Plus I can easily imagine the scene where after completing their initiation, the Initiate gets to walk up to the Praetor Suit and suit up for the very first time, all the while being cheered on by torch-holding monks chanting "Kar En Tuk". That would be quite badass.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Rudolph

[BGreener]

  On 1/10/2023 at 4:38 PM, Rudolph said:

so it seems rather silly to me that players would take issue with the identity of a mostly silent and masked protagonist whose only defining trait is that they can shoot guns and punch monsters; the lore might have gotten more convoluted, but the Doom protagonist remained a mostly empty slate.

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I don’t think it’s silly after all that 2016 and then Eternal did to establish his backstory and overall setting - and independent of how “silly” or otherwise we regard it, that’s not as important as accepting that a sizable portion of players really like what IdSoft have been doing with the story and lore during the last two Doom entries.

 

I can also see people wanting a longer series of games establishing the Slayer as the ‘God of War’ of FPS, or just having a long arc with various adventures mirroring what Master Chief has gone through.

[SwanS8]

I like a lot of the idea's (and find some of them very funny). I'm not suggesting Doom guy be replaced by Crash as some people are suggesting. The character for Crash is essentially a blank slate so Id could completely re-work her to fit the story. Also since Doom Eternal is a sequel to the original Doom; Doom guy was originally just a regular space marine; only after Doom 64 did he become a night sentinel and this "god-like" being. I feel like Crash would be a good side character in a separate campaign, or even offering a coop aspect to the new Doom.

 

Also as someone else said, Crash could be a separate marine back on Phobos or even someone who helped fight the demon invasion on earth to a lesser extent than Doom slayer. She wouldn't be powerful enough to be able to fight the Icon of sin, but she'd still be an exceptionally strong marine. Since she's a girl and weaker (not being a night sentinel) I feel like she could bring a different dynamic to the gameplay, possible new weapons entirely separate from Doom guys (or at least mostly) and maybe an entirely new evil taking place around the same time as the Icon of sin's resurrection which Doom guy wasn't aware of since he was too busy with the Khan mayker and the Icon of sin. 

[Rudolph]

  On 1/10/2023 at 5:06 PM, BGrieber said:

I don’t think it’s silly after all that 2016 and then Eternal did to establish his backstory and overall setting - and independent of how “silly” or otherwise we regard it, that’s not as important as accepting that a sizable portion of players really like what IdSoft have been doing with the story and lore during the last two Doom entries.

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But that is the thing: until Doom Eternal established that the Doom Slayer was Doomguy, people were not sure what to make of the character. I remember reading theories about him being actually the Betrayer! Furthermore, Doom Eternal did not explain how Doomguy ended up in a completely different timeline where Doom 1 and 2 did not happen... and then there was that plot twist regarding the Dark Lord in The Ancient Gods Part II that made things even more confusing, which suggests to me that having the Doom Slayer be Doomguy might be actively detrimental to the lore's coherence.

 

I do not know, maybe "silly" is too strong of a word, but I just cannot see any serious person outright refusing to play Doom 6 all because it does not feature Doomguy, a character that you do not even get to see most of the time due to the game's first-person perspective. To me, it would be like players refusing to play Half-Life: Alyx because it does not star Gordon Freeman, who is in many ways comparable to Doomguy in the sense that he is a silent protagonist whose importance to the lore has been increased to the point where he is basically treated as some sort of demi-god.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Rudolph

[Wad overdose]

only if it's a crash from de universe not from Quake's doom reality from where it is arena doomguy and Phobos because it seems to me that they will break the idverse and quake Dreamlands aka arena eternal from where it is almost impossible to escape only stroggs and wendell Gilman who could know  through what used slipgates that led to the world of wakefulness or wake up maybe I'm wrong in some places and I'm too excited about it.

(Yeah quake 3 arena still is canon but a bit retconed,B.J. and slayer considered by devs as no canon for quake.)

Edited January 10, 2023 by Wad overdose

[Gez]

I dunno about Crash, I don't think the character is relevant -- just like the other Q3A characters "Doom" and "Phobos" aren't relevant either. To me they're about on the same level as the Commander Keen found in Doom II (by opposition to the Commander Keen found in, well, Commander Keen). Just a cross-franchise nod to another one of id Software's game, with some extra customizability thrown in. There's nothing about the backstories for Crash, Doom, and Phobos that need to be enshrined in a new Doom game. Just like Billy Blaze's adventures doesn't need to end with him getting quadrupled, sent to the Nazi castle from which his grandfather escaped, and then committing suicide by hanging except it doesn't work because he doesn't actually need to breathe.

 

Oh, and likewise, if there is to be any new Doom game, I can only hope that it will be a new reboot, and that we will be free of the silly "Doom Slayer" character, may he get the rest he deserves and fade into obscurity like a bad meme from too long ago. His story is over. There is nowhere for him to go. He has already killed God (Maykr queen), then he killed actually the real God (VEGA/Father), and then he killed actually the really real God that was Satan all along (Davoth), and where do you go from that? Introduce a new For Real, This Time, God for him to kill? Gimme a break. Doom 2016 was masterfully told*, Doom Eternal took a nosedive, and The Ancient Gods basically turned the whole thing into a self-parody.

 

*It's all in the telling. The scenario was nothing to write home about, as expected for a game series like Doom that has never been about its plot; but the way in which the protagonist's personality was conveyed purely through his actions was rightfully praised. It was simple, elegant, all the more impactful by how little it detracted from gameplay. A perfect illustration of "less is more". But then with Eternal they turned their back on this and just went ham on all the stuff that 2016 consciously avoided.

[Azuris]

I would be more than ok with her, she is in the Games and they could explain new Movement Mechanics with her.
I am also ok with the Name Crash, she is crashing Demons to Death.

[Rudolph]

  On 1/10/2023 at 9:12 PM, Gez said:

But then with Eternal they turned their back on this and just went ham on all the stuff that 2016 consciously avoided.

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To its credit, Doom Eternal made the cutscenes skippable at least.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Rudolph

[RataUnderground]

I hope they bring back Doomguy too, since the Slayer is clearly other guy to me. Also, Female Doom protagonist? Hell yeah.

[Gez]

  On 1/10/2023 at 9:35 PM, Rudolph said:

To its credit, Doom Eternal made the cutscenes skippable at least.

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I'd only give them credit if skipping the cutscenes was not mandatory to avoid getting inflicted toxic doses of cringe.

[Herr Dethnout]

I will only accept Crash if she has the body of Ella Freya.


 

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Sorry everybody for being a goddamn horny simp.

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Herr Dethnout

[SwanS8]

  On 1/10/2023 at 10:29 PM, Gez said:

I'd only give them credit if skipping the cutscenes was not mandatory to avoid getting inflicted toxic doses of cringe.

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I don't think it's that bad, though I will admit I didn't really like them making him into a demi-god basically. I also don't care for the whole "Rip and Tear" thing, seems too silly, especially when he actually says it in game. In regards to Crash, I'm suggesting the character be re-worked and rewritten to an extent. I personally think just because a character has become irrelevant doesn't mean that can't be fixed/ changed.

[BGreener]

  On 1/10/2023 at 6:48 PM, Rudolph said:

To me, it would be like players refusing to play Half-Life: Alyx because it does not star Gordon Freeman, who is in many ways comparable to Doomguy in the sense that he is a silent protagonist whose importance to the lore has been increased to the point where he is basically treated as some sort of demi-god.

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You got it, that’s what a lot of people like about Doom now. They might not like the game as much if it’s not about that, and would prefer a series of games starring Doomguy like Kratos throughout all the God of War games. It could be a group bigger than people like @Gez and I who aren’t a fan of the cheese, or maybe the fanbase deemed things too much with Eternal and they’ll tone things down. We’ll know by the next game.

 

Personally, I’d want as many to be happy as possible - and that provides a segue back to “Crash” and how to make everyone happy. I’m agreeing with this general idea of “additional playable character”, it could be a big boost to replayability depending how they go about it - one of my personal Eternal nitpicks.

 

It could also alter level progression: Doomguy sometimes progresses through levels by punching through walls, Crash might not be strong enough so they have to find a different route - leading to different encounters. At the same time, I might want them on the same route as much as possible to further encourage a return to coop…

[Rudolph]

  On 1/11/2023 at 6:43 AM, BGrieber said:

You got it, that’s what a lot of people like about Doom now. They might not like the game as much if it’s not about that, and would prefer a series of games starring Doomguy like Kratos throughout all the God of War games.

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I just cannot bring myself to believe that. I would love to see Id Software try to gauge audience reaction by releasing a playable teaser that stars a character who is not Doomguy yet plays exactly the same. I guess that is the only way to really know for sure.

[BGreener]

  On 1/11/2023 at 2:48 PM, Rudolph said:

I just cannot bring myself to believe that.

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That there are people who like the direction they've taken with Eternal, with how they've basically turned him into Gun-Kratos Superman? If that's the case there's definitely people that like what IdSoft have done with Eternal overall, they may be taking some risks but they're not going to do so much without researching into it.

 

Are you still thinking only of the rare, few extreme cases where people would refuse to play as anyone but Doomguy? They're just a small part of what the overall negative response could be when IdSoft are considering having a different main character.

 

The only thing we know for now is Hugo Martin publicly stating a "female Slayer" is something they've considered, and in a fun coincidence the article even uses an image of Crash as a reference.

[dasho]

I can safely say it won't impact my chances of being interested in any nuDoom games.

[Rudolph]

  On 1/11/2023 at 3:35 PM, BGrieber said:

Are you still thinking only of the rare, few extreme cases where people would refuse to play as anyone but Doomguy?

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Yes. That is what I find to be, for lack of a better word, silly.

 

If anything, Doom Eternal - more specifically, The Ancient Gods Part II - is an outlier. Even Doom 2016's characterization of the Doom Slayer remained vague enough that they could have been a completely unrelated character, so I remain convinced that it would be easy to replace him as the protagonist.

[Bauul]

Personally I always liked Crash. She was the one level in Quake 3 that I could always reliably beat, lol.

 

I could see her working as a protagonist if id wanted to make a game set in the Doom universe, but with a notably different focus on gameplay. But I'd far rather they did a proper Quake sequel with Ranger and went full 90s gothic-grunge again.

 

Edit: Wasn't she really chatty in Q3A as well? I have a memory she would reply to you if you wrote Chat messages in the game. Like a super early version of an AI chat bot.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Bauul

[SwanS8]

Yeah I think a new Quake with the lovecraft style of the original would be awesome. I personally could do with a different MC than Ranger though tbh, maybe if they revamped him to fit the world design better, because he just seemed way too generic. Ranger to me looks about the same as one of the grunts, maybe they could give him more of a medieval/ gothic design to make him stand out more.

[arsac]

  On 1/10/2023 at 9:12 PM, Gez said:

Oh, and likewise, if there is to be any new Doom game, I can only hope that it will be a new reboot, and that we will be free of the silly "Doom Slayer" character, may he get the rest he deserves and fade into obscurity like a bad meme from too long ago. His story is over. There is nowhere for him to go. He has already killed God (Maykr queen), then he killed actually the real God (VEGA/Father), and then he killed actually the really real God that was Satan all along (Davoth), and where do you go from that? Introduce a new For Real, This Time, God for him to kill? Gimme a break. Doom 2016 was masterfully told*, Doom Eternal took a nosedive, and The Ancient Gods basically turned the whole thing into a self-parody.

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Completely agree with this. Any type of continuation after what The Ancient Gods fucked around with would just be way too cheesy for my taste.

[houston]

  On 1/9/2023 at 5:08 PM, Rudolph said:

Why Id chose to name her like that in the first place is beyond me.

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Cause her decapitated head missing from underneath her helmet was replaced with a snowcrashing computer/monitor.

 

I like Crash, but I thought Phobos' character (the ghost of Doomguy? an unrelated E2+E3 protagonist?) was rather weird and confusing. If they reintroduce her, I think they'd need to revamp her background a little bit. She's still gotta be a bot/cyborg though, no point otherwise.

[Trustanus]

I would rather see Nyx from QC honestly. She looks like she’d fit in singleplayer Quake as a playable character, especially against the Strogg. I wonder if they’re going to somehow merge Q1 and Q2 together with Strogg forces replacing the undead troops and the Quake monsters are in the slipgate areas or something. 
 

Also like Ranger a lot, though I’m not sure if that’s just his name or if he is an actual military ranger. I would hope he is the protagonist in the next Quake game, but I would love to be able to also play as Bitterman.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Trustanus

[Tetzlaff]

I think Crash isn't much of a character, merely "Doom marine but as a girl". Doomguy's military instructor/trainer? She seems so tame and innocuous in Quake 3 Arena.

 

 

I imagine her kind of like that...

[dasho]

  On 6/8/2023 at 2:26 PM, Tetzlaff said:

I imagine her kind of like that...

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You think of her as a 20-something year old girl with a pencil neck and soft features who makes sure to wear an open-faced helmet into combat so people can see her makeup?