so like which order do u think keys should happen eh

[xScavengerWolfx]

Personally to me it don't really matter what order there in as long you can make a cleaver way of dishing them out throughout the entire map.

 

Now as a mapper i try to make key hunting easy and hard for the player.

 

Easy: Oh here's the key in front of you, go ahead take it.

 

Hard: Oh here's the key in front of you, go ahead take it....after finding the switch to lower the bars which releases monsters from a "fuck you player" closet and after all that....you still have to find another switch to lower another set of bars, then you can take the key....and get blasted my a cyber demon while looking good.

 

The point is dose it really matter what order they go in? To me they don't as long you can figure out where and how you wanna place them.

[Remilia Scarlet]

I've always preferred Blue -> Yellow -> Red, like in Descent

[DynamiteKaitorn]

I generally like the Blue key to be the exit key for my WADs.

Red and Yellow is fairly interchangeable for me.

[Dubbag]

i always had a weird subconscious thing where it goes Blue, Red, Yellow. Every time I make a map IDK why.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Dub Bag

[NuMetalManiak]

This thread made me want to research how id's Doom's levels did key progression. I'll only list the levels that had two or three keys required to get to the exit(s) so some levels like E1M3 where there are two keys but you only need the blue to get to the normal exit (and if I recall neither key is actually necessary to get to the secret exit) are omitted:

E1M4: Blue 1st, Yellow 2nd
E1M5: Yellow 1st, Blue 2nd
E1M6: Red 1st, Blue 2nd, Yellow 3rd
E1M7: Yellow 1st, Red 2nd, Blue 3rd
E1M9: Yellow 1st, Red 2nd, Blue 3rd

E2M2: Blue 1st, Red 2nd (Yellow not required to exit)
E2M4: Blue 1st, Yellow 2nd
E2M6: Any order
E2M7: Blue 1st, Yellow 2nd, Red 3rd
E2M9: Blue 1st, Red 2nd, Yellow 3rd

E3M4: Blue 1st, Yellow 2nd, Red 3rd
E3M7: Blue 1st, Red 2nd, Yellow 3rd
E3M9: Blue 1st, Red 2nd

E4M1: Red 1st, Blue 2nd
E4M2: Yellow 1st, Blue 2nd
E4M3: Red 1st, Blue 2nd
E4M6: Blue 1st, Yellow 2nd, Red 3rd
E4M8: Red or Yellow can be 1st or 2nd

E1 has two levels that have Y-R-B as the main progression. Yellow key has the most instances of being the first required key this episode.
E2 easily favors blue as the first key, with four of the levels it is the first key required while red and yellow are quite even for which is the second key. E2M6 of course is nonlinear in key progression so any order works here.

Not a lot for E3 but as you can see blue wins again for first usually.

For E4 I skipped E4M5 and E4M7 since the only required key is the red one in both cases.

 

All in all, Blue has 9 guaranteed instances of being the first key to get, 10 if you get it first in E2M6, Yellow has 4 (6 if you get it first in E2M6 or E4M8), and Red has 3 (5 if you get it first in E2M6 or E4M8). So id preferred blue as the first key the most. For second key in progress if we go by the ones where the Blue key is first, Yellow has 5 second places (7 for E2M6/E4M8) and Red has 4 (6). Meaning id probably preferred yellow as the second key when applicable, with red usually being the third key.

 

I guess id in general preferred B-Y-R, especially for E2 and E3. But this shouldn't stop mappers from doing it whatever order they wish. I guess it's just fun researching how id does things.

For Doom 2:
 

MAP02: Red 1st, Blue 2nd
MAP03: Blue 1st, Red 2nd
MAP04: Blue 1st, Red 2nd, Yellow 3rd
MAP05: Red 1st, Blue 2nd, Yellow 3rd
MAP06: Blue 1st, Red 2nd, Yellow 3rd
MAP08: Yellow 1st, Red 2nd
MAP09: Blue 1st, Yellow 2nd
MAP10: Blue and Yellow can either be 1st or 2nd
MAP12: Blue and Yellow can either be 1st or 2nd
MAP13: Blue 1st, Red 2nd, Yellow 3rd
MAP14: Red 1st, Blue 2nd
MAP15: Yellow 1st, Blue 2nd (normal exit only)
MAP16: Blue 1st, Red 2nd
MAP17: Red 1st, Blue 2nd, Yellow 3rd
MAP18: Yellow 1st, Blue 2nd
MAP19: Any order
MAP21: Yellow 1st, Red 2nd (you can easily squeeze through the blue bars so Blue isn't required)
MAP22: Blue 1st, Red 2nd
MAP26: Red 1st, Blue 2nd, Yellow 3rd
MAP27: Yellow 1st, Blue 2nd, Red 3rd
MAP28: Yellow 1st, Red 2nd

Doom 2 was a lot more interesting as I am aware of many speedrun tricks for some of the maps. I actually omitted MAP11, since while you're supposed to get the blue key first, you can actually finish the level without it (enter BK room to release arch-vile, leave and go to secret NE of circle, teleport, jump to red key, then continue level via red door). Theoretically it's Blue 1st, Red 2nd though. For MAP15, the supposed order I'm sure is Red 1st, Yellow 2nd, Blue 3rd, but you don't actually need the red key if you take the teleporter in the damaging moat, which takes you to the YK room. Yellow key is the only one that's required in that map for both exits; you do need blue for the normal exit. For MAP19 Red is required, then either Yellow or Blue at a minimum, though you can get all three and any order is fine. I omitted MAP24 but I'm sure Sandy wanted it to be Blue 1st, Red 2nd (you can skip the blue by taking the back door route that speedrunners use though, Red is required for the map as a whole). And then there's MAP27 which has the arch-vile-door-open trick which can bypass all keys but I decided to keep this one.

 

Red had 5 (6) guaranteed first keys, Blue had 7 (10), and Yellow had 6 (9). If we added the supposed key progressions for the maps/routes I omitted here it would be 6 (7) for Red (including MAP15's intended progression), 6 (9) for Yellow, and 9 (12) for Blue. For the usual second key assuming Blue is the first, Red has 6 (7), and Yellow has 1 (4). So for Doom it seemed that the most prominent key progression was Blue-Yellow-Red and for Doom II it was Blue-Red-Yellow. And a majority of the ones where Blue was the first key were Sandy maps. Quite interesting.

Edited January 15, 2023 by NuMetalManiak
added Doom 2

[Doomkid]

Imagine making your maps so that you get all 3 keys in a specific order. HA!

 

 

 

(...I've done that many many times but I just wanted to say that anyway. ALSO I have literally never cared about the key order when it was a relevant consideration, at most I might try to make it match better with the color scheme of the room its in.)

[Murdoch]

I struggle to think of anything I care so little about. I am genuinely baffled this is something anyone has given any thought to.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Murdoch

[Individualised]

It's weird because yellow feels like it should be the final key in a level to me but I don't know why that is because id didn't universally do that.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Individualised

[Faceman2000]

5 hours ago, thelamp said:

seconding this, the yellow key has "secret" energy to me. not sure why, it just does haha

This is certainly because of E1M3.

[Caffeine Freak]

Yellow should be first. After that it doesn't really matter.

 

But I voted yellow, blue, red.

[Ludi]

I don't get why it matters. I mean I know Heretic does a specific order but I think it's fun to mix it up a bit to help break up the monotony though. 

 

To be fair, if you're a competent level designer you shouldn't have to worry about monotony anyway.

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Ludi

[tsocheff]

every single doom map i make that has multiple keys in it, the first one is always blue cuz its my favorite color

[ViolentBeetle]

I always felt yellow key should the one to lock the exit. Red and blue can go either way.

[Lucius Wooding]

I don't care about order, there are drastically different ways to design progression in a map so the order is purely cosmetic. I do like it when maps use custom key colors or custom sprites instead. Overboard's gas cans are a nice example of this.

[BigBoy91]

Always associated blue with the first one, yellow with the second, and red with the exit. I don't have a good reason for this though. Keys are keys.

[AbeAwesome]

8 hours ago, Clippy said:

sorry if I made a type mr grumps - im often in a hurry and in fact out the door rn

 

have a good day buddy!

If you're in a hurry, don't waste time making typos on doomworld.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with being mildly illiterate, but this sort of response is just rude.

[Bagellio]

i dont like the yellow key because one time when a girl was breaking up with me she said i probably didn't even know her favorite color and i said it was purple but it was actually yellow. her fault tho cuz yellow is a stupid ugly color.

 

anyway

red blue yellow probably

[Clippy]

17 minutes ago, AbeAwesome said:

If you're in a hurry, don't waste time making typos on doomworld.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with being mildly illiterate, but this sort of response is just rude.

 

u dont understand, typos save time doesnt waste it

 

night

[LordEntr0py]

14 hours ago, thelamp said:

the yellow key has "secret" energy to me. not sure why, it just does haha

(which was in response/agreement to @Somniac)

That's interesting. I generally tend to signpost my secrets with blue -- partly I think because the soul sphere is blue and traditionally displayed in unreachable-seeming locations. That means if I'm using a key for a secret it's probably going to be blue.

Otherwise, my gut feeling is yellow-blue-red, skipping yellow and/or blue so that red is final area, but it probably depends on map aesthetics to be honest.

 

[ViolentBeetle]

Out of curiosity, I decided to review my 20-maps WAD Hell Frontier to see how I use keys.

1. Red, Yellow, Blue
2. Red, Blue, Yellow
3. Red and Blue on independent path, required for exit, no Yellow
4. Yellow, Red, Blue
5. No keys at all
6. All three keys are independent, but blue door is noticeably first to appear
7. Yellow, Blue, Red
8. Blue and Red keys are independent, through blue door is earlier. Yellow key afterwards
9. Blue, Red, Yellow
10. Red, Blue, Yellow
11. Blue, Red, Yellow
12. Red, Yellow
13. Red, Blue
14. Red followed by Blue. Yellow independent
15. Blue, Red, Yellow
16. Yellow, Red, Blue
17. All three independent
18. Blue, Red
19. Red, Blue, Yellow
20. Red, Blue, Yellow

Definitely a heavy bias towards yellow being the final key. Red and blue are interchangeable.

Wonder what the reason for it. Probably that red and blue are seen as opposites, and yellow is the misbegotten lonely third one.

[ReaperAA]

11 hours ago, Remilia Scarlet said:

I've always preferred Blue -> Yellow -> Red, like in Descent

 

Dang it I was gonna say this. Descent had this order and I like it. Each subsequent key has more dangerous looking color (red being most dangerous looking and blue feeling safe). It's also the order in which they are placed on the statbar (from top to bottom).

 

Although it doesn't really matter all that much.

[Firedust]

Based on this thread, all I can say is that I wish more people implemented a deh replacing standard keys into their wads

 

Give green and purple some love too mkay

[Weird Sandwich]

10 hours ago, ViolentBeetle said:

I always felt yellow key should the one to lock the exit. Red and blue can go either way.

 

And yet, neither Hellevator or Skulltiverse used yellow keys for the exits ;)

 

 

As for me, I don't have any set order for the keys. Generally I choose my key colours based on two factors:

 

1. What colour matches the theme or visuals of the area it will be associated with, e.g. a blue key might open up an area with lots of water or a techbase, a red key might be found in an area with lots of lava, a yellow key may be guarded by archviles, etc.

 

2. What colour makes the key easiest to see against it's surroundings, to make it better for the player. Yes this sometimes contradicts rule 1, but hey that's why mapping is an art, not a science.

 

[PRO-RC]

RED WHITE N BLUE BABY WOOOOO USA 

Spoiler

red blye yellow

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by PRO-RC
changed blue to blye in spoiler

[A Handsome Fridge]

I'm with the majority here. Blue first, either red or yellow last. Keycards before skullkeys if you've got 6 keys. But I'll also be the first to break this unspoken rule.

[Ennello]

I like the idea of having the red key be last. The color red spells danger, feels right to me to have it at the end.

 

Then blue or yellow are interchangeable.

[yakfak]

keys are definitely an underrated thing you can mod to be something else. two frames of pixel art and a few minutes of dehacked work in the string section and it can be a data disk or a coffee cup or a teddy bear or whatever unholy quake-esque sigil you like <3

[Doom_Dude]

The keys should've been fireblu, startan and ashwall3.

 

Seriously tho, I don't follow any key guidelines or anything. As a mapping type person, I just use whatever key color I feel like adding at the time. Random is the way to go. I don't want players knowing they can get the fuck out of my map by going for a particular key color. ;)

Edited January 16, 2023 by Doom_Dude

[Kyka]

Literally never occured to me that there would be so many different "philosophies" about key usage.

 

My own philosophy is simple. Map needs a key. I put a key in the map. 

 

color/type is dependent on level textures/style.

[DiR]

Man, when you lay them out like that that's a lot of combination orders it could be in. Most importantly though, now I know the least popular order to put the keys in and I will not abuse this information in any way whatsoever.

Edited January 21, 2023 by DiR
I forgot the way