difficulty/slaughter maps rant

[pampoo79]

this is a rant about overly difficult maps, which I guess spawned the hole sub genre of slaughter maps. I might offend some people so be warned. Now I know map authors are prone to the fallacy about their maps that the difficulty is just right because they play tested it a thousand times and just know how to finish it, I am guilty of this myself. But there are other factors. Sure, you may just like killing lots of monsters. But of course there's a psychological background to putting yourself through torturing difficulty. Listen, I know that anyone who plays such maps dies a lot. No, you can't fool anyone. But the fact that you are unable to acknowledge "hey, this isn't fun" is a hint that something is not right. The ego can't take it, you gotta prove to yourself that you're a "good gamer", you know, the old school, who grew up with shitty hard games. Maybe I was guilty of this aswell, but I got over it, maybe that's why I have this issue now. But you gotta reach a point where either you did in fact prove something to yourself, or you gotta accept the uncomfortable truth. I think we're all adults at this point. Have some self awareness please

 

Why am I just not playing those maps? Well some maps are just fucking good, despite everything and it's a pity to skip a good map because good maps are rare. Also some 30map packs just have the occasional "good gamer" map in between. And it pisses me off that the pride of some old dudes is spoiling my fun.

 

/rant over. Of course noone is obligated to deliver anything to anyone here and I'm thankful for all the output regardless its quality but especially for the talent show cased in many projects - keep it coming and do your thing.

[SCF]

This morning I was stuck on a difficult crossword puzzle, and it sucked. You sit there staring for ten minutes at the hint for 5 across, and the answer just doesn't come to you. It's clearly not fun. So why do people keep putting themselves through this torture? Maybe they grew up in a time before video games, when the only entertainment was doing these shitty hard puzzles. But they should really admit that it's all just ego. They have to prove to themselves that they're smart people who know a lot of words. It really pisses me off when see a crossword in the newspaper and it's some bullshit challenge that I don't know how to solve.

[Deadwing]

What do you mean by "good"? Detailed or that you think the gameplay is good but too hard for you?

I usually avoid slaughter maps because they are usually too hard to me or way too much focused in combat, but if you give a ""normal"" map with 1 or 2 slaughter setups I actually enjoy it a lot haha
TBH, there are a whole different sub-genres into the "slaughter" genre, some are easier than others, map sizes varies, you have different focus in environmental challenges (plataforming, tight spaces, etc), different weapon usage, and, ofc, different visual styles too.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Deadwing

[whybmonotacrab]

1 hour ago, pampoo79 said:

Now I know map authors are prone to the fallacy about their maps that the difficulty is just right because they play tested it a thousand times and just know how to finish it

You know they generally get other people to play them. Like a lot of other people. Seriously, look at the readme of any difficult wad and you will see a ton of playtesters. It's not just the author. They get written and video feedback to see how people are playing their level with no prior knowledge.

 

1 hour ago, pampoo79 said:

 Listen, I know that anyone who plays such maps dies a lot. No, you can't fool anyone. But the fact that you are unable to acknowledge "hey, this isn't fun" is a hint that something is not right. The ego can't take it, you gotta prove to yourself that you're a "good gamer", you know, the old school, who grew up with shitty hard games.

Or, you know, some people just enjoy the challenge. People have been playing this game for close to 30 years - maybe they're just a lot better than you and want the feeling of adrenaline that they don't get from easier maps. Maybe they like solving combat puzzles. Maybe they enjoy the rush that comes from ducking and weaving through a first person bullet hell. I mean, I die a lot to these maps, but I also watch gameplay from people like Decino, Vile, and many others who manage to finish incredibly hard maps blind and saveless. Everyone has a different level of skill.

 

1 hour ago, pampoo79 said:

or you gotta accept the uncomfortable truth. I think we're all adults at this point. Have some self awareness please

 

I think the only uncomfortable truth here is that you're so fucking conceited you'd rather think half the site has severe mental issues than acknowledge other people might be different from you. Grow up. Have some self awareness please.

[Balos]

I recommend lowering the difficulty level. There's no shame in not playing on Ultra-Violence.

 

1 hour ago, pampoo79 said:

But the fact that you are unable to acknowledge "hey, this isn't fun" is a hint that something is not right.

relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/359/

[Nefelibeta]

11 minutes ago, Delvin said:

I recommend lowering the difficulty level. There's no shame in not playing on Ultra-Violence.

^^^

This is the ultimate anwser to 90% of problems you mentioned.

The other 10% is just play what you enjoy.

 

(edit:also if you think all slaughter mappers have high ego, that is your problem instead of theirs lol)

Edited January 22, 2023 by Nefelibeta

[Helm]

Engaging with a challenging game on different levels makes us all different humans. It doesn't pay to be paranoid (I mean this in the softest way possible) about whether other people actually enjoy what they seem to enjoy and you won't get anything useful out of that line of inquiry besides psychological projection and hurt feelings.

Take it for granted that different people enjoy different things to you, totally earnestly. Even dying over and over in a hard videogame. That would be arguing in good faith.

Take it also for granted that no matter what the interest, human beings get as much - or more, depending on outlook - out of something as they put in it.

It's hard to argue over a motivation gap... why do people get obsessed or super invested in getting good at something? Why do people 'waste time' creatively? Of course the ego (and all agents in the psychic apparatus) is relevant. But to point at it vis-a-vis doom achievement doesn't do much more than underline that yes, the people that map and play doom are humans, like all the other humans that do all the other human things, you know?

[Maribo]

2 hours ago, pampoo79 said:

But of course there's a psychological background to putting yourself through torturing difficulty. Listen, I know that anyone who plays such maps dies a lot. No, you can't fool anyone. But the fact that you are unable to acknowledge "hey, this isn't fun" is a hint that something is not right. The ego can't take it, you gotta prove to yourself that you're a "good gamer", you know, the old school, who grew up with shitty hard games. Maybe I was guilty of this aswell, but I got over it, maybe that's why I have this issue now. But you gotta reach a point where either you did in fact prove something to yourself, or you gotta accept the uncomfortable truth. I think we're all adults at this point. Have some self awareness please

Do you fear death and/or failure in video games? Death can be frustrating, but dying a lot doesn't necessarily equate to self-torture. This whole post is really like a back-handed slap in the face to both mappers and players who are more into a niche than you are, and the attempt at psychoanalyzing them is pretty gross.

[SilentD00mer]

42 minutes ago, whybmonotacrab said:

People have been playing this game for close to 30 years - maybe they're just a lot better than you and want the feeling of adrenaline that they don't get from easier maps.

I guess this is the main reason for those maps to exist. Well, I'm not one of that experienced players, but I can imagine how playing some wads with a progression similar to the Iwads(maybe I can call this approach a "traditional gameplay"?) can be boring. Personally, I tried some slaughter maps and didn't enjoy them, but I tried to play them on UV, and maybe they are for more skilled players (and, yes, they are, I'm not a skilled player). If you like the architecture of the maps, for example, and wanna finish the maps you can always lower the difficulty, as people said before, but it's important to remember that every player is different.

[pampoo79]

44 minutes ago, Maribo said:

Do you fear death and/or failure in video games? Death can be frustrating, but dying a lot doesn't necessarily equate to self-torture. This whole post is really like a back-handed slap in the face to both mappers and players who are more into a niche than you are, and the attempt at psychoanalyzing them is pretty gross.

 

the objective reason repeated dying is not fun is because beating a challenge just by repetition, learning a pattern to cheese the fuck out of a situation does actually not take any imaginative thinking or mechanic skill. Some games are actually challenging - particularly pvp - running in circles and senseless trial and error isn't.

[Bobby :D]

6 minutes ago, pampoo79 said:

 

the objective reason repeated dying is not fun is because beating a challenge just by repetition, learning a pattern to cheese the fuck out of a situation does actually not take any imaginative thinking or mechanic skill. Some games are actually challenging - particularly pvp - running in circles and senseless trial and error isn't.

Some people like doing this, especially speedrunners who play wads for thousands more times than any of us would. Just because a manner of experience doesn’t match your own comfort doesn’t make it an objective truth, no matter how common it can be. 

[Maribo]

8 minutes ago, pampoo79 said:

the objective reason repeated dying is not fun is because beating a challenge just by repetition, learning a pattern to cheese the fuck out of a situation does actually not take any imaginative thinking or mechanic skill. Some games are actually challenging - particularly pvp - running in circles and senseless trial and error isn't.

Sorry that you view all solutions to combat puzzles or hard encounters as "cheese". There's tons of puzzles that don't have a singular solution to them, and you'll see a bunch of different permutations of it, or even multiple different methods, ie: a safe "cheese" method like you're talking about, a middle of the road approach that balances risk and safety, and the fastest (and typically most dangerous) solution. I'm sorry you don't see how cool of a canvas doom is with the intricacies of stuff like infight generation, monster herding, optimal ammo spending, AI manipulation, BFG tracer and rocket optimization, etc. I'm engaging with you in good faith for this but if you think that difficult wads boil down just to trial and error or circle strafing, well.... I guess that's your perogative, but you're just silly.

[Ravendesk]

1 hour ago, Delvin said:

I recommend lowering the difficulty level. There's no shame in not playing on Ultra-Violence.

 

relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/359/

I played on UV and it hurt me a bit. I tried lowering the difficulty but in result it hurt me plenty.

[mhrz]

 

[El Juancho]

Skill issue 

[Sokoro]

Just use some overpowered weapon mods, or create some yourself. Then it is fun again.

 

It is not, like this is some online only game, which is controled by devs who might have, or might have not, the creative skill and/or good intentions... (GGG lol)

 

Doom is open, do whatever you want with it...

Edited January 22, 2023 by Sokoro
formating

[Mr Masker]

1 hour ago, pampoo79 said:

the objective reason

PSA: If you put the words "objective" or "objectively" before something, you are automatically correct and everyone else is dumb and stupid.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Mr Masker

[SleepyVelvet]

There are definitely different ways to experience Doom indeed.  

 

@OP, you should try out the Ironman Challenges hosted in the WAD Discussion subfurrum here.  I also enjoy ramming my head into a challenge maps until I beat them, but in the Ironman case, you play mostly to survive, and it's one of my favorite ways to play the game.

[NuMetalManiak]

1 hour ago, Sokoro said:

Just use some overpowered weapon mods, or create some yourself. Then it is fun again.

I do this a lot. It's really a lot of fun!

 

Spoiler

At least until I run into the map that is nigh unplayable on certain source ports due to too much detail/thing placement flogging the framerate on certain computers. Not everyone's got/able to afford a gaming PC, I'll admit to playing Doom on work computers in my sparetime but they are klunky. I'd love to see DSDA-Doom (which is rapidly becoming a norm in 2023's slaughter maps so far) get some support for weapon mods.

 

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

This thread objectively has all the bull shit I need to fertilize my hundred acre farm.

[arsac]

6 hours ago, pampoo79 said:

or you gotta accept the uncomfortable truth

Uncomfortable truth? What uncomfortable truth? That people can like something you don't?

[DNSKILL5]

As far as difficulty goes… If a map is truly unbalanced or unfair to the point it is actually impossible to complete that would be one thing, but if it is totally beatable even with high difficulty then that is more of a you problem, not a map problem. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by DNSKILL5

[kexen]

It seems pretty strange that you'd ask people to "grow up", while clearly not being able to respect that different people like different things.

 

Of course, this kind of post doesn't exist in a bubble. There's almost always been pushback against the mere concept of difficulty in video games. Proponents of this pushback typically create labyrinths of nonsensical justifications, filled with attacks on character (all that "masochism" nonsense), and which almost always boil down to some variant of "I don't like it".

 

Claiming that you're "thankful" for this content means little, when it's clear that you don't respect the existance of any of it. It's basically a non-apology.

 

Whatever content you're playing, I'm guessing Hell Revealed or Deus Vult or something else that qualifies for the "pride of some old dudes", is clearly not for you. Such content is allowed to exist, and in fact very much should exist. You gotta reach a point where either you did in fact prove something to yourself, or where you just gotta accept the uncomfortable truth. I think we're all adults at this point. Have some self-awareness, please.

 

edit: Oh, missed that "objective" post, very funny. Pro tip: building any kind of skill at anything involves a lot of repetition, trial+error, and careful study of what those before you did. That includes your precious PvP.

Edited January 22, 2023 by kexen

[Captain Keen]

I’m confused. I really don’t like slaughter maps myself, except as maybe 1 or 2 maps in a full megawad, but I’m glad they exist for people who *do* like that kinda thing. But Sunlust or Sunder just aren’t my thing. Doom has such an abundance of maps and mods that there’s no way you can play them all, so it’s pretty easy to find (free!) projects that are your thing. I for one love Vanilla-ish wads for the first Doom, and last year gave me like 5 great ones such as Silence, Stickney and 2022ADO. Whatever you’re into, I’m sure you can find it.

 

I mean we get all of this stuff for FREE and a lot of it is as good as anything professional in the indie world, and there’s always new stuff coming up too. I really can’t see how anyone can complain without looking like an asshole. Variety is a good thing.

[Liberation]

Thanks for the rant!

 

I don't really like slaughter map sets, I normally play most things on anything but UV and I find the die, die more, rinse and repeat grind rather tiresome as well.

 

The thing with this is, it's my problem, not anyone else's and I can go find something more suited to my tastes without any real effort.