Why do hardly any WADs use realistic textures?

[Havok]

Nearly all wads use cartoon-like wall and floor textures such as the default textures in Doom II. Why are there hardly any wads that use realistic textures such as PBR materials? Is it because they're hard to make? I thought there's plenty of places on the internet to get free realistic textures?

[spineapple tea]

To my knowledge, only GZDoom supports PBR textures and, like you thought, PBR is almost certainly much more difficult and time consuming to make. Staying in the realm of more classic Doom though, the largest textures you'll see are usually 256x128 or so (and flats are strictly limited to 64x64), which isn't very much when going for absolute realism.

[arsac]

Ignoring PBR and texture size, HD textures don't really fit the theme of classic doom, and they have large contrast with most sprites.

[Havok]

I would have thought that when designing your own textures that it would be more difficult to design a cartoon texture to fit the art style of Doom than it is to make a realistic texture because we know what a realistic texture looks like as we can see them in real life.

[Gez]

3 hours ago, Havok said:

realistic textures such as PBR materials

I feel that you're conflating an artistic criteria (realistic art style) with a rendering technique (physically-based rendering). You can have PBR for unrealistic textures, and you can have realistic textures with basic direct rendering. There are actually a few texture packs that have partly sourced from photography of real walls and floors and skies and other such things.

 

But if you're just doing a Doom map, your realistic textures will have to be in what is today a very low resolution (128 pixels corresponding roughly to 2 meters), and you will not have parallax, specular, roughness, etc. effects on them, so... that's as far as realism can go. With GZDoom you can have all these fancy effects and go higher resolution, but the monsters and things will just look weird in the middle of your high-res, high-detail wonderland, so you'll have to replace them, too. But then it's the way they move that becomes weird if you replace them with models, so you'll have to overhaul AI and physics too. At some point you'll realize you're probably better off using something like Unity Engine for your game.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Gez

[Nikku4211]

Photorealistic textures in a Doom map can look uncanny valley for some.

 

I know this is a very old example, but how does the Trinity College map look to you?

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

It's the same deal as HD upscaled textures, there's just not a lot of interest from mappers or players. It makes the game go from looking surreal to looking cheap and ugly. I'd rather have graphics that insinuate a realistic setting.

[esselfortium]

It can be done well, but Doom with hi-res textures has a bad tendency to fall into the "bargain-bin PS2 game" aesthetic zone, even in GZDoom.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

The community is known for putting tons of care to all aspects of creations, so the high-effort isn't the issue. It's more an artistic decision. If you have realistic textures, the geometry you can create is primitive in comparison. It would look uncanny at best, simply awful at worst. And then you place the cartoony Doom enemies and pickups and they stick out like sore thumb. The engine excels in more abstract shapes and themes, trying to achieve realistic look is not in the cards even for engine like GZDoom with all sorts of expert trickery. The closest thing I can think of in terms of realism is Total Chaos which is incredibly impressive. But the amount of work to pull of such a project is immeasurable.

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Total_Chaos

[Azuris]

9 hours ago, Havok said:

Nearly all wads use cartoon-like wall and floor textures such as the default textures in Doom II. Why are there hardly any wads that use realistic textures such as PBR materials? Is it because they're hard to make? I thought there's plenty of places on the internet to get free realistic textures?

 

Mostly because it just looks bad, Mortal Kombat did it right (but also by going into a cartoony Style), but most of the Games with Sprites of Real Persons and Textures look bad.

 

The other Reason:

To make it compatible with the original Game and other Work of the Community.

You can't use others Work as easily and other also can't mix your Stuff in, if the Style is Miles away from the "common" Style.

 

 

[LadyMistDragon]

There are a few different reasons for this. 

 

One: The HD required to make detailed realistic spaces that one can actually play in is something that's only supported fully in GZDoom, though you can make some convincing ones in non GZDoom with some work.

 

Two: That's kind of how thing have gone after the hyper-detailed oughts and people feeling like that was more of a growing period than anything else, leading into 

 

Three: It doesn't really serve the preferred gameplay purposes of what has become modern classic Doom.

 

 

[Immorpher]

Doom 64 CE perhaps has the best use of PBR materials in a Doom mod: https://www.moddb.com/mods/doom-ce/

[ReaperAA]

2 minutes ago, Immorpher said:

Doom 64 CE perhaps has the best use of PBR materials in a Doom mod: https://www.moddb.com/mods/doom-ce/

 

I... actually agree. It's like the one case of a Doom mod I can think of where PBR doesn't look hideously out of place.

[Ed]

Textures can have normal maps assigned to them, but the actual map geometry does not. When you get into adding PBR / NM/SP textures, you run into a lot of lighting jank that really shows the limited geometric complexity of the Doom engine. The specular lighting sticks out like a sore thumb when it comes to subtle angles or surfaces such as terrain, as it doesn't gradient across those angles.

 

I find that less is more. Keep the highlights subtle and the textures constructed with the engine limitations in mind. 

 

Sneezy Mcglassface pretty much said it. Building PBR materials is a much bigger to-do than a simple diffuse. Not only the construction of the assets, but also writing GLDEFS and adjusting those assets to what looks good in-game after they're implemented. Additionally, the lower the sector light level, the more dramatic the PBR will look. Unfortunately, the editor doesn't show that in real time, so there's some back and forth to deal with on that end as well. 

[Noiser]

Realism is boring :-)

[Professor Hastig]

16 hours ago, Gez said:

I feel that you're conflating an artistic criteria (realistic art style) with a rendering technique (physically-based rendering).

 

Don't we conflate something else as well? Nothing dictates that more realistic textures need to be hires. Just have a look at Duke Nukem 3D, for example - it is roughly the same resolution and similar tech as Doom but its texture set is made to resemble real stuff, where Doom's are just random imagery for the most part.

 

 

 

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

11 hours ago, Noiser said:

Realism is boring :-)

Not to derail the conversation too much but this striving for realism as the ultimate goal in games always annoyed me. Realism and fun are often mutually exclusive. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Sneezy McGlassFace
spelling

[Murdoch]

13 hours ago, esselfortium said:

It can be done well, but Doom with hi-res textures has a bad tendency to fall into the "bargain-bin PS2 game" aesthetic zone, even in GZDoom.

 

This. I remember a very early WAD back in the day, based on a university I believe, that used textures based on photos of said university. It was gallant effort but the end result looked like ass. The need to bend the textures to Doom's limited and specific 256 colour palette and low resolution destroyed how the textures looked.

 

Doom has a certain aesthetic and realism simply is not it. Add a few realistic textures and they would clash with the remaining art assets. You would have to redo everything to make it work.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Murdoch

[Kyka]

I think because if you used realistic textures, Doom would turn into "Generic-Sci-Fi-Shooter-number-3548" instead of the radically unique game that it actually is.

 

 

Let's all say "COD-with-Demons" together...

[Gez]

2 hours ago, Professor Hastig said:

Don't we conflate something else as well? Nothing dictates that more realistic textures need to be hires.

I did address resolution in my comment...

 

Also, as pointed out:

14 hours ago, Nikku4211 said:

I know this is a very old example, but how does the Trinity College map look to you?

Photo-sourced textures, so the most realistic you can go with the vanilla Doom rendering engine.

 

56 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

This. I remember a very early WAD back in the day, based on a university I believe, that used textures based on photos of said university. It was gallant effort but the end result looked like ass. The need to bend the textures to Doom's limited and specific 256 colour palette and low resolution destroyed how the textures looked.

Wasn't that the aforementioned Unholy Trinity College?

 

57 minutes ago, Murdoch said:

Doom has a certain aesthetic and realism simply is not it. Add a few realistic textures and they would clash with the remaining art assets. You would have to redo everything to make it work.

Doom does have a mix of graphics, some of the textures are photo-sourced, and I'm not talking just about the skies.

[yakfak]

trinity college was amazing. question the imagination of anyone who thought it "looked like ass" lol

 

i just think those pabst blue ribbon textures are for an entirely different audience. it's not entirely about resolution cos I've played mods with sprites which were 2x magnified and enjoyed them. I've played lots of pseudo-realistic wads too but they end up with this scrapbook feeling, high-art enthusiasm that wouldn't benefit from Texture Depthiness or zdoom-enabled underhangs and light dynamics. it's just a matter of what Doom means to you, what you'll indulge and what you think ruins the atmosphere.

 

but you should definitely go ahead and make a pack with cutting edge textures!

[xdarkmasterx]

Because they look like shit in old games with flat geometry. Same reason HD texture packs on games like Thief and Quake are so ugly

[dasho]

[HeatedChocolate]

Realistic =/= good, simply put. I don't want a hyper-realistic take on that scrolling face texture, either.

[bofu]

10 hours ago, Professor Hastig said:

 

Don't we conflate something else as well? Nothing dictates that more realistic textures need to be hires. Just have a look at Duke Nukem 3D, for example - it is roughly the same resolution and similar tech as Doom but its texture set is made to resemble real stuff, where Doom's are just random imagery for the most part.

 

 

 

Kind of. Duke Nukem 3D actually has much higher resolution textures overall that are often shrunk down (since you can shrink or expand textures on a wall freely and also halve the size of textures on floors and ceilings). So, a 64x64 texture in Duke tends not to be used on a 64 unit surface, but rather a 32 or 48 unit one. Ever notice that when people do straight rips of Duke Nukem or Shadow Warrior textures to Doom that the scale is always way off? 

 

You're right that the overall art style is more detailed and realistic, but I think that's a byproduct of the Build engine being able to scale textures, sprites, and flats.

Edited January 23, 2023 by bofu

[Graf Zahl]

43 minutes ago, bofu said:

You're right that the overall art style is more detailed and realistic, but I think that's a byproduct of the Build engine being able to scale textures, sprites, and flats.

 

Actually, no. To take a very simple example, a toilet is a toilet. Duke has a texture for it, Doom doesn't. If it wasn't scaleable it'd look a bit more pixelated but it'd still look like a toilet.

Furthermore, while decorations often use texture scaling most of the actual geometry does not.

 

The main difference between Duke and Doom is that Duke had textures made for its specific settings, while Doom (and even moreso Doom2) created settings out of a rather generic and sometimes unfitting texture set. There are mapsets that try to add a bit of realism by using more fitting textures - and they often make do with the limited scaling options.

 

If you want an example, check out the second map of Hellcore. One of the first things you see in this map is a gas station - but it wasn't made out of generic textures - it has several specially made for it. And this really makes all the difference in visual presentation, despite nothing being higher resolution.

 

[Murdoch]

9 hours ago, Gez said:

Doom does have a mix of graphics, some of the textures are photo-sourced, and I'm not talking just about the skies.

 

Yes i know but they are so heavily edited they don't really look realistic anymore. And i would actually say the photo sourced skies, though cool, do still kind of clash with the rest of the artwork. Not abrasively so, but they still don't really fit.

[Individualised]

On 1/22/2023 at 4:14 PM, Gez said:

There are actually a few texture packs that have partly sourced from photography of real walls and floors and skies and other such things.

Hell, many of the vanilla Doom textures (not just the skies) are sourced from real photos, though I'm sure that's well known to everyone in this thread.

(edit: should have probably read the whole thread before replying)

Edited January 23, 2023 by Individualised

[WARDUST]

11 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Hell, many of the vanilla Doom textures (not just the skies) are sourced from real photos, though I'm sure that's well known to everyone in this thread.

(edit: should have probably read the whole thread before replying)

Well, i'm more or less with you. I don't feel Doom is so cartoonish, perhaps some of the brick walls and the sprites, but that's all

 

I'm trying to understand how to make PBR, with a coversor or something, in an easy way, but at the end, like someone said, it's weird, it's like putting lot of effort into something that never will look like a new gen game... so, i think to myself, let the pixels express all that an stop wasting time learning more things (cose it works without it) for me, a 2x work and some extra fx are enough, and anyway, it takes me lot of time. Better learn mapping :P

[Ludi]

On 1/22/2023 at 1:32 PM, Nikku4211 said:

Photorealistic textures in a Doom map can look uncanny valley for some.

 

I know this is a very old example, but how does the Trinity College map look to you?

 

To be honest, I think TC pulls it off quite well, especially in 320x200. It hides a lot of the artifacting on the digitized textures and I find that the map oozes charm.