Biggest Doom WAD Turnoffs

[Garnto]

What do you guys hate to see the most in Doom WADS? Posting this as a new and fairly inexperienced WAD maker so I can know what to avoid.

[INfront95]

150+ monsters in the first level. Insta turn off

[Xyzzу]

For every "turn off", there's an audience that turns up to it. Just make whatever you want. Any bad thing that could be said here could be seen as done "right" in the eyes of someone, somewhere.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Xyzzy01

[Shepardus]

It's such a turnoff when a Doom WAD avoids a whole laundry list of the biggest Doom WAD turnoffs.

[Decay]

Wad crashes my computer, can't get any more turned off than that.

[Osmosis Bones]

A little bit of backtracking is okay. But it's bad when there's a copious amount of it and it gets confusing, especially in larger levels.

[Pseudonaut]

Really turns me off when there are less than 151 monsters in the first level.

[General Roasterock]

1 hour ago, Xyzzy01 said:

For every "turn off", there's an audience that turns up to it. Just make whatever you want. Any bad thing that could be said here could be seen as done "right" in the eyes of someone, somewhere.

I mean OP isn't saying "What is BAD about Doom" it's just a sampling of the people that play it explaining what they don't like.

 

For me, if I can tell that you don't have purpose or passion in your design, like you just have hallways filled with spatterings of monsters that slow down the pace of your level, it does get on my nerves. It's hard to call concrete examples, but you definitely know it when you see it.

[Xaser]

 

Quoting myself from an older thread like this 'cause it's relevant:

 

On 1/29/2021 at 7:45 PM, Xaser said:

A quick aside: if you're a new or relatively new mapper, or otherwise "in the market" for ideas on how to improve your maps, you are best off ignoring this thread (and others like it) in its entirety. You're never gonna please absolutely everyone out there, and "pet peeves" spam threads like these tend to collect a lot of strange or extremely-niche opinions that are best tossed into the bin. You'll drive yourself absolutely mad trying to use this as a checklist of "what not to do"; don't try it! Find your voice through constructive means.

 

[I'm a bit grumpier in that thread than I mean to be here, so apologies for the wording.]

 

I know it may tempting to try and collect a list of "dont's" before trying to start something new, but without experience you won't be able to tell the good advice apart from the bad. Start by trying some things, and if you feel like you're stuck, ask for help with specifics. That and play wads you like for inspiration -- if nothing else, that's a pretty solid do, IMO. You'll get a much better result making something like rather than try and run away from things random strangers say are wrong.

[Xyzzу]

13 minutes ago, General Roasterock said:

I mean OP isn't saying "What is BAD about Doom" it's just a sampling of the people that play it explaining what they don't like.

Well, yes. My point was that for someone new looking to make a likable map, there's so few not-obvious design choices that are near-universally disliked that getting a sampling becomes almost meaningless imo. They will inevitably make a map with turnoffs for some people no matter what they try.

[Professor Hastig]

I immediately get turned off if I see that an episode or megawad quickly ramps up to 200+ monsters per level and never goes down to reasonable levels again. I haven't seen many of such projects that don't devolve into an endless grind.

 

Even the best of the best, like BTSX, wear out after some time because it is large level after large level.

[xScavengerWolfx]

4 hours ago, Garnto said:

What do you guys hate to see the most in Doom WADS? Posting this as a new and fairly inexperienced WAD maker so I can know what to avoid.

For new mappers, avoid doing huge rooms, non matching textures, unpegged doors line defs, color key code your doors, no super high tier enemies in the start (unless your doing plutoina mapping) and finally most of all.....do not and i mean do not ignore criticism.  

[rita remton]

hi! this bit of info may help:

 

about roughly 1-2 years ago, someone did a survey in doomworld about types of wad they like best, etc etc, sent via an online google form. more than a hundred people submitted their response. i did not save the forum thread nor the google spreadsheet link (you may search doomworld though for the raw data). i did however, out of curiosity, made a quick analysis based on the data (about a year ago), and saved the results.

 

best voted themes:

1. psychedelic.

2. tech base.

3 & 4. nature or hell (both a tie).

5. urban.

 

best voted music:

1. hard rock.

2. ambient.

3. unique.

4. unsettling.

5. relaxing.

6. percussion-based.

note: i don't know why the music type in the survey was classified this way. i personally prefer proper classification such as [slow rock], [jazz], [classic], [techno], etc.

 

number of secrets (max 10 secrets in the survey):

1. 10 secrets.

2. 5 secrets.

3. 4 secrets.

4. 3 secrets.

5. 6 secrets.

 

do note these results are:

• 1-2 years old so may no longer be the newest trend.
• afaik, the survey was done only in doomworld and only about 100 people submitted their views. therefore the data set is quite small and only confined only to those who regularly visit doomworld. it does not cover other classic doom sources such as moddb, reddit, etc.

from me personally, just create a map that you yourself like. it can be any theme, any room size, shabby or neat, any number of monsters of any difficulty, with/without escapable/inescapable pits, etc. if you like to share your maps and would like people's views on them to improve your maps, then post it in the forums be it [doomworld], doom groups on [reddit], [facebook], etc (do mind the forum's rules though, especially on terry/joke wads). if you do not like critiques and just want to share your maps with the world, then just post your map directly to [idgames], [moddb], etc and disable the review section (i noticed some well known mappers do this). because at the end of the day, regardless of what others think (if the thing you do is legal), one should really ask themselves whether they truly enjoy what they do. just my 2 cents.

 

hope this helps and good luck :)

Edited February 10, 2023 by rita remton
wordings, ideas.

[Somniac]

My advice is don't try to please everyone and make what appeals to you at the time. 

[dististik]

As has already been echoed here a few times, make what you want but with the added tag of making bad things is both okay and fun. Remember this is ultimately a hobby and so long as you enjoy making and playing the things you make, even if by all currently popular consensus your creation may be considered "bad", you're doing something right.

 

Obviously as time goes on and you make more things you'll see your process refine itself a bit and you'll get higher standards for yourself but making a few unapologetically bad things first is in my humblest of opinions the best way to go about things like this.

[Ravendesk]

Falling from platforms and constant retrying

Infinite height when the cacos are flying

When I get stuck on the torches and sticks

These are a few of my least favourite things

 

When first map has cybers when second has barrels 

When rooms are too wide, when the pathways too narrow

When too few shotgunners when too many imps

These are a few of my least favourite things

 

Revenants, barons, hellknights, archviles

Bfg spam and adventures on isles

And only when you get rid of all this crap

Will you be able to make a good map

Edited February 10, 2023 by Ravendesk

[Ennello]

I want to stress that anyone is free to put whatever they want in their maps, but here are some of my pet peeves:

 

Campy combat, i.e. door fights, especially if the room could make for an interesting arena.

Decorations you can get stuck on in the middle of an arena.

Excessive platforming.

One-time areas and secrets, or obscure secrets you need to e.g. SR50 or arch-vile jump to.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

Make the maps you'd like to play. Simple as that.

I do empathise with not knowing what to do as a budding artist. As far as I'm concerned, the key is making stuff and learning from what you've made. All the do's and dont's are just opinions. One person's do is another one's don't. And vice versa. Experiment, see what works and what doesn't. It's your map, you make it any way you like it. 

That said, this video by DavidN called The visual language of doom maps helped me a ton in the beginning. It's more about understanding of what design decisions have what effect on the player. But then every player is different.. A lot (if not most) of design is just vibe and gut feeling. 

 

In summary: don't worry about it too much. Nothing's set in stone. 

[Elendir]

Whenever at least one monster is attacking me right after the level loads up I insta turn it off! I also turn the whole WAD off when something like this happens in the next levels in the bigger WAD. My rule of thumb: do not throw enemies at the player when the mission starts.

[Stupid Bunny]

Topics like these come up from time to time, and I appreciate that you’re approaching the “what don’t you like to see in maps” question from a constructive angle.

 

My past answers to this have always distilled down to “Structure your maps and responses to criticism around what you want to see in Doom.” As a favorite personal example, I’ve always had a taste for sprawling, somewhat labyrinthine maps with vast open spaces and a lot of visual variety. As such, from early on many of my maps were inspired by the likes of The Chasm from Doom II and Central Processing, Administration Center or Mt. Pain from TNT.

 

Now, you don’t have to lurk here long to realize that these maps aren’t exactly universally adored among Doom fans. As such I don’t expect everyone who plays maps inspired by them to come away loving the experience. However, there are plenty of folks besides myself who do enjoy such maps, or variants of them with some kinks worked out, and I suppose you could say they’re the ones I’d me mapping for in this case. It’s like any art form: you can muddle your vision until it vaguely appeals to everyone, or you can pursue what makes you tick and really excite the people who get off on the same sort of thing.

 

As for criticism, it is absolutely important not to dismiss it as you receive it, but remember that criticism itself should be approached with a critical eye. I can’t expect everyone who plays one of my large maps to love them, but if I have multiple people—or possibly even one—tearing their hair out because they have absolutely no goddamn idea where to go at any time and no clue what any switch does, then that’s probably not because they don’t like big maps, but more likely that I’ve done a bad job of telegraphing progression and need to make changes to that effect. 
 

I could go into the things I usually don’t like in maps but honestly every one of them has had exceptions where they’ve been used to clever and fun effect, and I think you’d be better served playing some maps, seeing what you like, setting down a couple maps yourself and releasing them as you go so you can get some feedback. Learning by doing and all that

[knifeworld]

8 hours ago, Garnto said:

What do you guys hate to see the most in Doom WADS? Posting this as a new and fairly inexperienced WAD maker so I can know what to avoid.

As a new mapper just make whatever you want tbh, a good way to start is to use wads you yourself enjoy playing as inspiration.
If you get feedback that suggests your map plays out differently than you intended it to, or someone discovers a genuine softlock, then sure, make changes.
But otherwise, go wild!

With that said, here's a pick 'n mix of what usually causes me to get bored in a map:
-fullbright rooms for most of a map
-wads that don't risk adding cheeky high tier monsters in early levels (although they can still be enjoyable)
-"safe" maps that don't really try to do anything interesting or different from vanilla techbases or IWAD hell levels
-excessive door fighting
-stealth monsters
-maps that seem to have been made just to look cool or magnum opus-ey that have underwhelming or seemingly lazily crafted fights and/or exploration
-maps that were only tested in GZ Doom
-stealth monsters
-maps that try to please everyone, or that take onboard (too much of) someones nitpicking about texture alignment or having used the "wrong" flats or textures
-maps that were designed with brutal doom in mind
-stealth monsters
-STEALTH MONSTERS

[thiccyosh]

Biggest Doom WAD Turnoffs. So the quit game button, exit switch? Task manager? Alt+F4?

[Optimus]

First impression tells me this is slaughtermap.

- big symmetric bland arenas

- hard monsters stacked in NxN squares looking away from you, till you wake everything up.

- lot's of powerups everywhere

[mrthejoshmon]

You know what legitimately turns me off? Like the moment I see it I close the wad and don't return?

 

 

Ok jokes aside (how dare I speak poor of a legend), the real answer is anime.

 

In any form.

 

Just pulling your leg again. I love garbage.

Edited February 10, 2023 by mrthejoshmon

[MFG38]

STARTAN2.

[Kyka]

People who pronounce the word "wad" as "wad" (rhyming with dad and lad), instead of saying "wad" (rhyming with cod and mod,) the way God intended.

[Walter confetti]

Very, VERY hard and grindy maps, like the stuff with 500+ monsters in MAP01.

Also too linear maps and maps without any sense.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Walter confetti

[Aku]

biggest turn off are levels that are hard to figure out where to go, so if im goin back n forth constantly through the corpses of dead enemies trying to find my way without a clear direction il turn the map off after it gets frustrating, sometimes very detailed high profile maps even do this.

[Nefelibeta]

4 hours ago, Ravendesk said:

Falling from platforms and constant retrying

Infinite height when the cacos are flying

When I get stuck on the torches and sticks

These are a few of my least favourite things

 

When first map has cybers when second has barrels 

When rooms are too wide, when the pathways too narrow

When too few shotgunners when too many imps

These are a few of my least favourite things

 

Revenants, barons, hellknights, archviles

Bfg spam and adventures on isles

And only when you get rid of all this crap

Will you be able to make a good map

I need to see somebody sing this now.

[Roofi]

11 hours ago, Xyzzy01 said:

For every "turn off", there's an audience that turns up to it. Just make whatever you want. Any bad thing that could be said here could be seen as done "right" in the eyes of someone, somewhere.

 

Is there an audience which loves being softlocked by accident in a Doom map?