Doom wads on the go

[Catdark_]

I am thinking of developing an IOS app for the purpose of playing doom wads on the go and let Graf know I’m sorry should I make this app AMA 

[Edward850]

How do you intend to work around the limitations of the current iOS store, such as the inability to use GPLv3? They also have very strict requirements about side loading content that not even the official Doom port managed to work around.

[Individualised]

4 hours ago, Edward850 said:

How do you intend to work around the limitations of the current iOS store, such as the inability to use GPLv3? They also have very strict requirements about side loading content that not even the official Doom port managed to work around.

OP never said it would be on the official app store. Are there many advanced source ports already available for iOS? I think GZDoom already has a port...

[Edward850]

7 minutes ago, Individualised said:

OP never said it would be on the official app store. Are there many advanced source ports already available for iOS? I think GZDoom already has a port...

Unless you jail break your phone, there is only the official app store which pretty much limits your market to relatively no-one. And from some simple google searching, there has been no version of GZDoom released on iOS even in a jailbroken capacity.

Seriously, the platform is more restricted than the Xbox somehow.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Edward850

[Individualised]

11 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Unless you jail break your phone, there is only the official app store which pretty much limits your market to almost no-one. And from some simple google searching, there has been no version of GZDoom released on iOS even in a jailbroken capacity.

"Almost no-one" is a huge exaggeration, many people use jailbroken iOS, and it is possible to sideload apps without jailbreaking though the methods to do so are clunky/not ideal.

 

If GZDoom does not have an iOS port then OP's idea might be worth a shot, then. A popular emulator frontend that has an iOS version has a PrBoom core which I believe is supported on iOS, though when I've used that app on iOS I never bothered to check out that core.

 

Xbox is probably the least restricted of the 3 major game console platforms. You can actually get homebrew on Xbox without modifications or developer tools. Xbox also routinely let games of dubious copyright status (as in, straight up bootleg Mario/Zelda/Pokemon/whatever other popular game franchise games) and potentially falsified PEGI/ESRB ratings on their store, so the review process there is almost none unlike there is with Nintendo, Sony, and most importantly Apple. A better comparison would be PlayStation or Switch. If you think Xbox is restricted then I don't know what you must think about those 2 :P

Edited February 24, 2023 by Individualised

[Edward850]

10 minutes ago, Individualised said:

"Almost no-one" is a huge exaggeration, many people use jailbroken iOS, and it is possible to sideload apps without jailbreaking though the methods to do so are clunky/not ideal.

I edited that to relatively no-one already. Yes people do, but a very, very niche number of people do relative to the whole customer base.

10 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Xbox is probably the least restricted of the 3 major game console platforms. You can actually get homebrew on Xbox without modifications or developer tools. Xbox also routinely let games of dubious copyright status (as in, straight up bootleg Mario/Zelda/Pokemon/whatever other popular game franchise games) and potentially falsified PEGI/ESRB ratings on their store, so the review process there is almost none unlike there is with Nintendo/Sony. A better comparison would be PlayStation or Switch. If you think Xbox is restricted then I don't know what you must think about those 2 :P

I explicitly said the Xbox is less restricted, I'm not sure why you think I said something different. I am also obviously the last person you need to explain the Xbox review process to. Also what you're describing isn't the Xbox review process, but the Windows Store review process, which is how they get around the restrictions as the Xbox can run the same apps. They aren't submitting things to the Xbox explicitly.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Edward850

[Individualised]

2 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

I edited that to relatively no-one already. Yes people do, but a very, very niche number of people do relative to the whole customer base.

I explicitly said the Xbox is less restricted, I'm not sure why you think I said something different. I am also obviously the last person you need to explain the Xbox review process to. Also what you're describing isn't the Xbox review process, but the Windows Store review process, which is how they get around the restrictions as the Xbox can run the same apps. They aren't submitting things to the Xbox explicitly.

I interpreted "Seriously, the platform is more restricted than the Xbox somehow" as implying that Xbox was known for being heavily restricted or something, so I guess I misinterpreted that, I'm sorry. As for the Windows Store thing, I figured as such, and it makes sense for Microsoft to merge things together like that, but it still seems a bit weird to me.

 

Regardless though, at the end of the day, the most important thing about things like this to me is just seeing cool new software and ports being made. I don't care too much about how it's distributed or how many people will be able to use it and such, that seems like more of a thing to worry about after OP were to begin development on their idea.

[indigotyrian]

I mean if "well almost nobody uses this platform why bother making anything for it" is a reason not to make something on that platform then why make literally anything for desktop linux

[Individualised]

5 minutes ago, segfault said:

I mean if "well almost nobody uses this platform why bother making anything for it" is a reason not to make something on that platform then why make literally anything for desktop linux

:(

[Edward850]

6 minutes ago, segfault said:

I mean if "well almost nobody uses this platform why bother making anything for it" is a reason not to make something on that platform then why make literally anything for desktop linux

The subtle inference I'm making is that it'd be used less than Linux. Which granted lack of users is not-not a reason to do something, it does rather count against it.

[indigotyrian]

1 minute ago, Edward850 said:

The subtle inference I'm making is that it'd be used less than Linux. Which granted lack of users is not-not a reason to do something, it does rather count against it.

 

I mean, people port Doom to improbable platforms all the time. It's kind of a meme, in fact. How many people are actually going to earnestly play Doom on a tractor?

[Edward850]

13 minutes ago, segfault said:

 

I mean, people port Doom to improbable platforms all the time. It's kind of a meme, in fact. How many people are actually going to earnestly play Doom on a tractor?

Did someone actually port Doom to a tractor, or does the OS just happen to already be able to run Doom? Much like those "ports" to ATMs which is actually just a Windows XP terminal.

To be clear I'm talking from a perspective of someone whose first question always is "does the platform even want me to develop for it?" (Which yes iOS is as unattractive as they come), so I am just being cynical here.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Edward850

[Foxpup]

35 minutes ago, segfault said:

I mean, people port Doom to improbable platforms all the time.

Far less improbable than you might think. Most embedded devices more advanced than a microwave oven are running some flavour of Linux, and the original Doom source release was for the Linux version. It seems like a joke (and it technically is), but it's probably actually easier to port Doom to these devices than to Windows. Not much easier, mind you: Doom was originally designed on NeXTSTEP while being intended to run on DOS, so it was designed with some degree of cross-platform portability in mind from the very start, which no doubt simplified later porting efforts.

[dasho]

How did the first post of this thread get taken seriously enough for this whole conversation to take place?

[Catdark_]

7 hours ago, Edward850 said:

How do you intend to work around the limitations of the current iOS store, such as the inability to use GPLv3? They also have very strict requirements about side loading content that not even the official Doom port managed to work around.

It depends the app would require the official Doom and Doom II apps to be installed and on your iCloud purchase history, plus all of the legality associated with making an iOS doom mod player, thankfully IOS 17 will have side loading due to the European Union’s free digital markets act that will go in effect in 2024. 

[Professor Hastig]

5 hours ago, Individualised said:

OP never said it would be on the official app store. Are there many advanced source ports already available for iOS? I think GZDoom already has a port...

 

No, there are no iOS ports around. And that is solely owed to Apple's tight control on the platform. It is utterly ridiculous what a developer must do to get their app into the app store, if Apple does not like your app for whatever reason it won't get in - and once you appear on their watchlist they get twice as pedantic the second time around.

 

4 hours ago, segfault said:

I mean if "well almost nobody uses this platform why bother making anything for it" is a reason not to make something on that platform then why make literally anything for desktop linux

 

Most likely because if you already got your stuff working on both Windows and macOS going that short extra mile to get Linux support as well is not that inconvenient, especially for games.

Jailbroken iOS is a very different matter. I know some people using Linux, but I do not know anybody using a jailbroken iPhone.

 

 

2 hours ago, Catdark_ said:

thankfully IOS 17 will have side loading due to the European Union’s free digital markets act that will go in effect in 2024.  

 

Even then, it'll probably mean that Europeans will be able to use it but Americans won't.

 

[Redneckerz]

4 hours ago, dasho said:

How did the first post of this thread get taken seriously enough for this whole conversation to take place?

Idea Guys provide an excellent jab job perspective! It worked on Elon Musk when he thought of The Boring Company!

3 hours ago, Catdark_ said:

It depends the app would require the official Doom and Doom II apps to be installed and on your iCloud purchase history, plus all of the legality associated with making an iOS doom mod player, thankfully IOS 17 will have side loading due to the European Union’s free digital markets act that will go in effect in 2024. 

So, essentially:

• Not worth doing in 2023
• Maybe possible in 2024.

This thread would make more sense next year, even by only a smidge, and i am only saying that because this thread allowed me to say the word smidge and i like that word.

[Catdark_]

Honestly if apple is the biggest hurdle developing the app will take years as there are thousands of good wads that are limited to being played on a computer without extra setup. As I am not comfortable with taking my laptop on the go as it is conversing to carry 

 

[Catdark_]

17 hours ago, Edward850 said:

How do you intend to work around the limitations of the current iOS store, such as the inability to use GPLv3? They also have very strict requirements about side loading content that not even the official Doom port managed to work around.

Does Graf Zhal have an iOS app that I can download? 

[Catdark_]

17 hours ago, Edward850 said:

How do you intend to work around the limitations of the current iOS store, such as the inability to use GPLv3? They also have very strict requirements about side loading content that not even the official Doom port managed to work around.

 The best possible option is if I port the Mac version of GZDoom to IOS as it is the version that is made for Mac computers 

[Graf Zahl]

If you want to port to iOS you will have to start with the Android version to get a working touchscreen interface. But make no mistake - if you make an iOS version you won't be able to distribute it. Apple will never let it into the app store and your only chance is to let people self compile, the $100 Apple developer fee included.

 

[Redneckerz]

2 hours ago, Catdark_ said:

Honestly if apple is the biggest hurdle developing the app will take years

Very good. Thats why it will not happen.

2 hours ago, Catdark_ said:

as there are thousands of good wads that are limited to being played on a computer without extra setup. As I am not comfortable with taking my laptop on the go as it is conversing to carry 

• Buy a android phone and buy Delta Touch
• Buy a Switch, buy the official ports, or jailbreak and put GZ on it (It has a unofficial port)
• Buy a retro handheld that had Libreteo support. That can load a PrBoom 2.5.0 based core
• Dont do either and accept your fate

2 hours ago, Catdark_ said:

Does Graf Zhal have an iOS app that I can download? 

No. Graf makes GZ for Wi dows.

 

1 hour ago, Catdark_ said:

 The best possible option is if I port the Mac version of GZDoom to IOS as it is the version that is made for Mac computers 

The best possible option is to avoid iOS as a Doom playing OS and device.

[Catdark_]

12 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

If you want to port to iOS you will have to start with the Android version to get a working touchscreen interface. But make no mistake - if you make an iOS version you won't be able to distribute it. Apple will never let it into the app store and your only chance is to let people self compile, the $100 Apple developer fee included.

 

The app cost is free and is intended for playing heretic and hexen on the go I believe that if apple wants to deny the app I will take the hit, android phones are expensive and Are not available for me at this moment I can possibly make a Macintosh version even with the $100 dev fee I would ask for monetary donations to support my efforts to  acquire the hardware and resources. If development fails in America I would move to Europe and my second option is to make a google play store app and port it to iOS I will update you on the progress  I expect that apple will slam the door on me if that happens I’ll just release the IOS beta. 

 

[JadingTsunami]

27 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Apple will never let it into the app store and your only chance is to let people self compile, the $100 Apple developer fee included.

 

A note, there's a free iOS Developer profile option now. It's more limited than a paid profile but for personal use it can be helpful.

[Catdark_]

9 minutes ago, JadingTsunami said:

 

A note, there's a free iOS Developer profile option now. It's more limited than a paid profile but for personal use it can be helpful.

This would work during the end of development 

[dasho]

Honestly, is there a large overlap of people who prefer iPhones and people who also want to compile their own applications for said iPhone? 

[Catdark_]

I  planning to move to Europe for the iOS development stage while I will stay in America as my options for moving to Europe are nada I would give Graf Zhal the beta code so he can give feedback I might want to port dosbox to iOS and in the first post this was intended for the App Store this idea was to expand the community for doom modding.

[Shepardus]

When you can't afford an Android phone, so you move to Europe instead.

[PKr]

51 minutes ago, Shepardus said:

When you can't afford an Android phone, so you move to Europe instead.

...and have an iphone instead.

Edited February 24, 2023 by PKr

[Individualised]

13 hours ago, Professor Hastig said:

 

No, there are no iOS ports around. And that is solely owed to Apple's tight control on the platform. It is utterly ridiculous what a developer must do to get their app into the app store, if Apple does not like your app for whatever reason it won't get in - and once you appear on their watchlist they get twice as pedantic the second time around.

 

 

Most likely because if you already got your stuff working on both Windows and macOS going that short extra mile to get Linux support as well is not that inconvenient, especially for games.

Jailbroken iOS is a very different matter. I know some people using Linux, but I do not know anybody using a jailbroken iPhone.

 

 

 

Even then, it'll probably mean that Europeans will be able to use it but Americans won't.

 

Again I have no idea what the App Store has to do with anything. I suppose that most people here aren't Apple fans (neither am I to be honest) but jailbreaking and sideloading on iOS is not as much of a myth as this thread would have people believe. iPhone used to be my most used platform for playing emulators on the go a few years ago. I'm not really sure what @Graf Zahl means about not being able to release GZDoom binaries for iOS, only source code, unless it has something to do with GPLv3, but RetroArch is GPLv3 and they distribute precompiled binaries for iOS. I'll take his word for it though.

 

The person you were replying to was pointing out that even though a fraction of PC users use desktop Linux, many applications still have Linux versions. Not the opposite.

 

I doubt they'll make anything EU-only, for the same reason they won't make the USB-C iPhones EU-only. Though to be fair this is a software thing and not a hardware thing.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Individualised