Doomguy and the Magic Flute -- is my wad idea ridiculous?

[slowfade]

I've learned by now that I'm a mapping kind of person. While I have interest in using new textures (but also for keeping it stock-only!), I've found out I have little interest in all the other areas. Yet working I am on a small vanilla Doom 1 wad (meant to be runnable with the/an original Doom 1 exe) that needs some extra, and I'm struggling.

There are two ways this can go depending on "if I find some professional help": A small gem of modern vanilla modding, or an atrocious 90s style creation where players go "wow, this has some great ideas, too bad they didn't have any talent realizing them!" I do recognize the creative potential in creating a purposefully terrible 90s style production but I couldn't fake it well enough, either.

 

So I'm asking, does this project sound silly? Is it worth the time? You see, I have a big project in my sights that I've planned for a long time while making Confusion Constructions. It's another limit-removing Doom 1 wad and I can't wait to start making it. But I still feel somewhat exhausted by my previous effort and would like a palate cleanser with a simpler project. But I still don't know if I should be making this or not, as I can't do it 100% on my own.

I've made five maps without even realizing it. It's been so fun to make maps with the limitations of my self-imposed style for this. But all that other stuff stresses me so much.

 

Do you think this has any potential? Would you help with one of the areas I need help with? I know DW is full of talent that actually enjoys the things I dislike.

If I don't get any help -- and decide not to abandon this -- I'll just make everything with shitty placeholder graphics, terrible music, and possibly not 100% correct dehacking just to get this done and out. Whatever the case, I plan on this production not taking all that long; time is limited and this is not something I want to do for years. Currently the deadline is the end of July (2023) but I hope to get this out earlier than that.

 

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So let me explain the project! As the title (which might change) hints, this wad revolves around a magic flute. (I have no idea what happens in the opera, so this isn't related to that.) This wad is actually something I considered for my first project (although the ideas weren't this far yet), but since I didn't know the most basic things about mapping, the idea of doing maps and all this other stuff was just too distant. And at first I didn't think there'd be a way to get the flute working without a more advanced source port -- this solution I thought of later. The idea is that the wad (9 maps) begins in front of a locked gate. The player must navigate around somewhat small maps that each have a central gimmick or two. It won't be traditional Doom gameplay. Eventually, the player will find the magic flute, and soon after will return to the first area (copied into the last map). There, by playing the flute at the gate, it will open, and Doomguy will escape the caverns.

 

My inspiration is Tomb Raider 1, the caverns, the tombs... It's not meant to be TR-in-Doom (although that would be cool too) but more about the atmosphere and the aesthetics and the early 3D. I'm mapping with 64x64 block resolution (in top-down view) and 90 degree corners.

 

Here are some central ideas in more detail:

 

The magic flute
-Replaces chaingun and has limitless ammo or close.
-Pistol dehacked into something that doesn't shoot, or shoots rockets which the player will never have. The important thing is that it won't launch bullets.
-A bullet hitting wall won't spawn the smoke sprite (it's either dehacked away if possible or just replaced with invisible sprites).
-The flute plays a small melody (yet to be composed) that can use 4-5 different notes, and the Doomguy's hands play a flute, with the sound perfectly synced with the graphics that play the specific notes. As you might imagine, without proper dehacking and sprite work this will look disastrous!
-At the end of the longish flute play animation (shooting), a bullet is launched -- like an invisible spell. The bullet triggers linedefs that activate with shooting -- for example, a linedef is placed before a door, and the door opens once the flute is played at it.
-After finding the flute in map 7, the player can't die (because the maps are designed so) in it or in map 8 so that it'll stay in the inventory till the end.

 

Nailgun

-Pretty much like something ripped from Quake.
-Shoots plasma projectiles which are dehacked to have other sides if viewed from other sides. A bit like the Quake nails.
-Used a few times only in map 6, where it's found, and the beginning of map 7 to shoot monsters.

 

Monster
-Something done in the early 3D style like enemies in TR or Quake, then made into sprites.
-About cyber's size, can be wider, but the hitbox not as big as mastermind's. I imagine something spider-like but I really lack the imagination here.
-Doesn't shoot anything but moves fast and has an attack that is more or less lethal with one bite.
-First appears in map 5, can be shot in map 6 and 7.

 

Underwater
-Floors are damaging to simulate running out of oxygen (Doomguy's as good at swimming as he's at jumping).
-Underwater textures are colored blue to enhance underwaterness.
-There are entries for submerging and resurfacing water (64x64 square teleports); the underwater areas are an integral part of the maps and not just a gimmick.
-Teleport flash will be replaced with a water splash and sound of splashing.
-The teleports are marked with animated 'up' and 'down' arrows or such, which are easy to see and run towards.

 

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So what do I need help with exactly? Here are the positions I'm hoping to fill. Mapping and texturing (textures ripped from TR1) are my area along with the overall directing.
-Dehacking. I just don't understand it enough yet. DEH9000 is used here to generate the final dehacked file. I need help for everything mentioned here that needs dehacking, from the weapons to the monster to the non-moving sprites.
-Music. My idea is to have a very abstract, sparse soundtrack. My idea is to make bad midis myself and someone with more skills could make them more bearable, but it's probably just wisest to skip this step and let them shine. But still, the style I'm looking for is very ambient rather than melodic.
-Flute and nailgun first person sprites.
-The monster design and sprites.
-Sprite scouting. I don't know many resources such as old games or material specifically made for Doom mappers to use. I'd need all kinds of style-appropriate sprites to add as decorations; barrels, weapons, cups, skeletons, etc. I also need to find sprites for foods that work as medikit replacements: Stuff like a ham and a chicken leg.

 

And if these are too vague, don't worry, I'll explain better via email or DM if you're interested in helping.

 

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

That sounds like a really nice project. However, it's not likely somebody will do it for you. Forget about talent, the idea of "talent" making somebody automatically more skilled is bollocks. Everything takes time and effort. You can totally make this project happen but first you need to get experienced with all the individual elements of what you proposed.

Can you comfortably make 9 maps that you're proud of? It's fine if the answer is no, it just means more practice is necessary. Make more maps. Short and small, and big and sprawling, simple, complex, all sorts. 

Do you feel like you can make 9 maps of what you envisioned with relative ease? Nice, then you can learn how the dehacked or zscript magic wand would work. There are people who know a whole lot about that stuff, you can ask simple questions and get simple answers. If you know what the missing piece is, it's easy for somebody to tell you. If you don't know how the thing works, then that's more difficult. Again, it's just practice. Anybody can practice, and that's what's so good about it. Practice the small elements, and then you can put all that into a big, ambitious project, and because you know what you're doing, people will enjoy it. 

I know that's not what your wanted to hear but it's in your hands. It's your idea, make it the way you want it. 

[slowfade]

I may give a beggarish air but I still don't think I'm one. My point isn't about avoiding work, but avoiding the kind of work I know I suck at, and hoping someone else who enjoys that kind of stuff would be interested in helping in their area of expertise. After all, I see in a thousand wads a list of credits with dehacking by person x, spritework by person y, music by person z... Here's some of my objections - heh - about making everything on my own:
-I don't think dehacking ties with mapping skills at all. It's about understanding the engine in a low level close to its internal logic. I would've made all my hacks yesterday if I could understand it. This area totally interests me. But something still eludes me about this system and I can't find any good tutorials whatsoever.
-Music is an art. I don't even have a personal interest in changing the music but I know people like to hear different songs and I do agree with them it's a big mood thing, thus I'd like new songs by someone who enjoys game music composing. I don't, and I have no skills whatsoever at that area. Several others here enjoy making full soundtracks for wads. If I must do it myself, I will, but nobody will like the result.
-I can't draw and that's a fact. Any kind of 3D software is beyond me. I don't see a thousand monster designs when I close my eyes (thankfully!). Learning to draw takes immense dedication and requires interest in the subject, for years and years. I have no interest in sprite/gun graphics, at all, but I know many others here enjoy creating such things. If I have to make them myself, they will be ugly, clownish, and make the entire production laughable (even if all other aspects escaped that).
-I know there's a type of person that loves diving into resource packs and hoarding all the good sprites they can find, if they one day might find use for them... I merely get angry by the multitude of choice. For someone who is into this subject and knows resource already, it might be an hour or two of pleasant digging. For me, a long misery that I'm likely to skip completely and just let the rooms be barren instead.
-Mapping is the only problem I don't have, although I must be doing something wrong because nobody wants to try my maps...

Edited March 10, 2023 by slowfade

[Insaneprophet]

Thats not true. I for one love your maps and have replayed them multiple times already and may do so again today 😀

Edited March 10, 2023 by Insaneprophet

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

3 hours ago, slowfade said:

After all, I see in a thousand wads a list of credits with dehacking by person x, spritework by person y, music by person z...

It may seem like somebody has an idea for a project, and finds people to make bespoke art for the project, and then credits them as a thanks. But as far as I know, in vast majority of cases, somebody makes the art (let's say dehacked weapon) first, and somebody else with a project idea comes along and says "that's a really nice [dehacked weapon] you made, can I use it in this project I thought of?" Sometimes the use permission is clearly stated in the included text file, sometimes it's not clear and it's best to ask for permission. Same with midi, textures, sprites.. are what I mean? 

From the artists' point of view it's a risk, they may put a lot of time and effort into something, and the project lead changes mind or abandons it or any other of the million ways things can go wrong. And their effort ends up wasted. 

Have a look at realm667, surely there is something you can use, and ask how to incorporate it in your unique project idea. 

 

As an example, there's countless wads that use Jimmy midi. But Jimmy couldn't make a song for everybody who asks him. There is a big set of finished midis he made, people use them, and thank/credit him for letting them use the midi. 

Trust me, I empathise with the frustration of having a unique idea for a project but having to make compromises. But that's how life works. Until you make lots of impressive projects yourself, become a name in the community and/or make good friends with people who are willing to help out, you best start by relying on yourself, and the many pre-made community assets. 

[smeghammer]

47 minutes ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

Have a look at realm667

This.

 

https://www.realm667.com/en/repository-18489

 

It's a fantastic resource.

[slowfade]

Cheers insaneprophet, that's nice. Whatever comes of this project at least there'll be some new maps to try.

 

Ok, now I understand you Sneezy. Makes sense. I should've guessed it works like this, like it does everywhere else. A lesson learned, and I'll have to take the road of 'some compromise' and see what happens. I'll start by trying tackling the dehacked.

 

And thanks, I finally checked out realm667. I found some useful stuff in minutes. I don't know why I've avoided it so much. Haha!

[slowfade]

I decided to halt this project for time being. It just doesn't feel rewarding enough to make on my own. Perhaps I'll return to it after my next project, and perhaps that in turn might attract more interest to this. But because so many things in this project stress and even annoy me, and my time and energy are limited, I asked myself "Why? Why do you bother? Why do you do things so unwisely and against your best interests when you have all the freedom here?" I sobered up and decided to go full steam into something I actually enjoy making. Namely, limit-removing maps based on more complex constructions and monolithic architecture. And just avoid the stuff I don't care about. I'll try taking small steps at first in an effort to not get a burnout. Although I feel a couple of weeks have already greatly dissolved the tension I felt at the end of Confusion Constructions, which, by the way, took me 22 months, and has been my only Doom project so far (if not counting this), so it's not like I'm starting and dropping projects left and right. For the project I'm starting now I have pages of plans and scribbles made during the past year or so. I'm really excited about starting it, the overall idea of it, the designs, the traps, the new work methods I've planned, not to mention finally getting to use the grimiest, darkest, rustiest steel textures out there...!

 

By the way, if you, the reader, whenever you're reading this, get interested in this project (Doomguy and the Magic Flute) and might like to help in some of the areas, send me a PM and I'll keep it in mind if I return to this later.

[Insaneprophet]

That sounds like the best thing anyone can do for themselves. As mapping is supposed to be a recreational activity, consentrating on and immering oneself in the aspects of it they get the most enjoyment out of can and will always lead to the best results. Ive found the same to be true in all of my artistic endevors over the years. I have grand ideas and concepts for things I am not really capable of achieving and any time spent trying to realize those goals inevitably feels like beating my head against a wall. Quickly feelings of uselessness and depression set in and all of that is so counterproductive and the opposite of what we should be aiming for that I strive now to stay more "within myself." Nothing feels better than looking at, holding or sharing a finished product, even when it isnt the be all end all "everything all in one" that our imaginations cann create. None of that is to say stop trying to learn, grow, expand and improve our creations but to keep it at a pace where we can comfortbly enjoy ourselves every step of the way. Cant wait to see what you cook up next because Confusion Constructions is criminally under rated and deserves far more attention and appreciation.