Classic DOOM's Unanswered Questions ( Trivia )

[Lost_Soul]

Hi, I'm new here as a forum member but I am definitely a retro DOOMer. I have not played any of the more recent iterations and reboots ( not even DOOM 3 ). In recent years, there have been tons of info released regarding the history and development of the original DOOM Trilogy ( UD, DOOM II, Final DOOM ) which has been helpful in explaining certain trivia regarding designs and where some of the names and music were derived from. I will humbly admit that there are probably still many interviews and articles that I have probably not seen yet. In either case, there are still certain aspects to the whole Classic DOOM Universe ( maybe call it the DOOMiverse Gen 1 or something ) that still leaves me puzzled to this day.

 

I grew up playing the console port that everyone loves to make fun of ( and probably rightly so ) - "Poor Man's DOOM" on the Sega 32x ( poor me ). Although it was vastly inferior to most of the other versions of the game, I always used to enjoy it in spite of that. I had tried playing it on the PC off and on during those years but was never any good playing it on the keyboard or the mouse. It was only later during my formative years that I finally graduated to playing the full versions on the PSX and the PC after I was finally able to make a game controller work reliably on a desktop system. Classic DOOM was already in the retro-gaming niche by that time; seriously, I don't care if it's old, a good game is a good game.

 

Back on the main idea for this thread though, one of those burning questions for me regarding the DOOMiverse, is what is the deal with the maps E1M5 and E2M4?? I learned that these stages had names when I started playing the PC version, and one of the things I discovered is that both of these two decidedly creepy maps had the term "Lab" as a qualifier in their names. When people picture labs, they immediately associate the term with beakers and vials full of chemicals presumably accompanied by a 'tech base' aesthetic, not all of this gothic medieval stuff. I say this while still understanding that the architecture around the entire base is being physically altered by some reality warping enemy - presumably by the Spider Demon for lack of anything more to go on plot-wise. The only way that this would seem to make sense is if one reads the map names according to their significance in Greek Mythology and the chosen setting for the story - Deimos and Phobos. If anybody else here has some insight that can help explain why the devs chose those particular names for these maps, I would greatly appreciate that. A lot of people would probably react to this and think, " dude, it's just an electronic game! there is nothing to understand, you're reading way too much into it!"

 

Before anyone asks, I have had the pleasure of also reading the novelization, "Knee Deep in the Dead" - great book, highly recommended.

 

So what about everyone else? Are there any unresolved points to the plot that you are unsure about and have always wondered what the dev team was thinking? Probably the other biggest elephant in the room concerning those WTF moments from the original game was the infamous secret map from episode 3 ( "Warrens" ), which the novel actually gives a nod to.

 

Would anyone like to share their thoughts?

[DNSKILL5]

The idea that the demons have altered some of the locations for themselves makes sense, and assuming the Spider-Mastermind is responsible isn't at all far fetched. The spider-mastermind was originally going to have a psychic mind attack of some kind as an alternative method of attacking. The demons repurposing human architecture for their own use adds more to the whole invasion idea seen in Doom II.

 

However, labs don't have to look all scientific. They could be labs used to summon demons or even to study demonic stuff, only it turned out for the worst. Almost all stuff like this is usually the result of scientists thinking they can do the impossible, but they never stop to asks if it is actually a good idea, you know, like in Jurassic Park. They could've really had "good" intentions of studying the demonic "aliens" only for it to backfire.

 

Just think how we look for life on other planets. We only understand life as we know it. We focus on planets that have the conditions that we require for life on Earth. If we saw intelligent life unlike anything else we had ever seen before on a planet that we ourselves could not survive on, how would we even begin to understand from so far away? Humans couldn't possibly understand what the demons want or how they do business. All the theories would just be a way for us to make sense of their true intentions but even if it was spelled out to us, would we actually understand? That's why the best equalizer is Doomguy, because he doesn't waste his time asking why this or why that. Instead, he has his guns loaded and kills the demons and their possessed without hesitation.

Edited March 11, 2023 by DNSKILL5

[Individualised]

The levels in Episode 1 in particular don't really bare much resemblance to the locations they're assigned for a reason. They were mostly designed by John Romero, who made his levels purposely abstract in response to the levels designed by Tom Hall which tried to go for a much more realistic architecture.

 

This is even more prevalent in the 32X and PS1 versions that you played growing up, as it's based on the Jaguar version where the sense of game progression from the original was removed, and most of the levels had their themes mixed up and swapped around with many texture changes, so for example I believe E1M5, which is supposed to be a techbase level since it's in Episode 1, has a more Doom 2/Quake-ish "medieval castle" look to it. Other levels in Jaguar Doom have things like the Doom 2 grass in outdoor areas which also makes no sense.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Individualised

[TheSlipgateStudios]

Doom is a masterpiece overall, my favorite being Episode 2 The Shores Of Hell when the human architecture combined with demon presence is a really nice touch. Heck, even the episode 3 designs are nice, even if most maps have weak gameplay.

[Lost_Soul]

21 hours ago, DNSKILL5 said:

However, labs don't have to look all scientific. They could be labs used to summon demons or even to study demonic stuff, only it turned out for the worst. Almost all stuff like this is usually the result of scientists thinking they can do the impossible, but they never stop to asks if it is actually a good idea, you know, like in Jurassic Park. They could've really had "good" intentions of studying the demonic "aliens" only for it to backfire.

 

Interesting interpretation. Come to think of it, the Phobos Lab is the very first location on the game that features a "dimensional shambler/teleporter" in that secret room which can be accessed on one of the two elevators on the double-stairway. Since the manual makes it clear that the UAC is experimenting with dimensional gateway technology, an argument could possibly be made that the Phobos Lab is where all the magic happens ( so to speak ). The idea that the UAC's top scientists deliberately intended the Phobos Lab to be a place to study demonic phenomena also adds an interesting plot twist to the whole story, suggesting that the top brass had a secret agenda that they were keeping under wraps from the public in a vein very similar to the Umbrella Corporation's intrigue in the first "Resident Evil" game. In "Quake III Arena", a new character was introduced which was basically a palette swap of DOOMguy, simply known as "Phobos" because he was billed as being the commander who led the failed counterattack against the invading demon hordes. Although Quake III's canonicity is questionable, Phobos' bio actually states that he was "betrayed by superiors who seemed to think they could learn more from watching him die than reading his reports" - I remember that bit very well. The character that Phobos would probably correspond to most closely in the book is Weems; seems kinda odd that he was only a lieutenant and not a colonel or higher though.

 

Now if we were to seriously entertain this premise though, would it not have made more sense for the developers to make Phobos Lab the penultimate map right before Phobos Anomaly with the two "Bruiser Brothers" guarding the obvious beachhead that got the demon's foot into the door for their invasion of Phobos? Sorry to go all Game Theorists on everyone there...well, actually I'm not...kinda why I'm here.

 

By the way, I'm very glad that you mentioned the JP films. I would actually pay good money to see a B-movie where the dinosaurs are going around leaving park workers crucified on the walls, talking backwards in Latin, harvesting people's organs for arts and crafts projects, and setting up weird Satanic shrines, and casting Sam Neil's character in the role of "Fly" ( aka Doomguy ). The stone wall reliefs depicting the Baron faces in DOOM could be replaced with Carnotaur faces ( and so on ). It wouldn't make any sense at all but it would still be totally awesome. LMAO Seriously though, we should trademark that idea.

 

23 hours ago, Individualised said:

The levels in Episode 1 in particular don't really bare much resemblance to the locations they're assigned for a reason. They were mostly designed by John Romero, who made his levels purposely abstract in response to the levels designed by Tom Hall which tried to go for a much more realistic architecture.

 

This is even more prevalent in the 32X and PS1 versions that you played growing up, as it's based on the Jaguar version where the sense of game progression from the original was removed, and most of the levels had their themes mixed up and swapped around with many texture changes, so for example I believe E1M5, which is supposed to be a techbase level since it's in Episode 1, has a more Doom 2/Quake-ish "medieval castle" look to it. Other levels in Jaguar Doom have things like the Doom 2 grass in outdoor areas which also makes no sense.

 

That would explain for some of it. Tom Hall I believe was the guy who wrote the DOOM Bible and originally intended for DOOM to basically be a clone of "Zero Tolerance" on the Sega Mega Drive, where there would be different characters each with their own attributes.

[LadyMistDragon]

On 3/11/2023 at 11:18 AM, Lost_Soul said:

 

 

Before anyone asks, I have had the pleasure of also reading the novelization, "Knee Deep in the Dead" - great book, highly recommended.

 

That's a rather interesting way to describe it to say the least. While it was cool that it tried to replicate the settings of the game, it's not exactly regarded as fine literature in even the same category as something like the original Halo trilogy or Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy. While Flynn Taggert was a hilarious POV - I'm can't personally call it traditionally good and most people would say that the book and the sequels were all bad.

 

Anyway, I can remember thinking the same thing. Like maybe just a year or so after playing Doom for the first time, it became clear that "Central Processing" and "Computer Station" couldn't possibly represent their real-world equivalents.

 

In E2, it feels like there's a much broader room of interpretation though. Like maybe "Deimos Lab" is practically the most corrupted map there, outside of "Halls of the Damned" so it's fine there. In "Spawning Vats", I feel it becomes mostly irrelevant because there's a horrific quality that earns the map its name regardless of any resemblance to RL locations. Like why would one have 'spawning vats" on Deimos anyway? Wouldn't the southern China mountains of Phobos be a more appropriate location for such experiments.

 

Honestly, I likely stopped thinking about it after a while. Unholy Cathedral does sort of resemble what it says but Mr. Erebus seemed less like a mountain and more like a demon industrial center if truth be told.

 

Good thread though! Some people never lose the ol' curiosity.

[TheEyeOfStone]

E1M5 opens with a moat of green slime that goes out from under one wall, across the room and under the other wall. The level has other green slime pits as well. I always interpreted this to mean that UAC was creating or processing slime on an industrial scale. Pretty much the same goes for E2M4. My preteen brain interpreted what I was seeing as industrial / tech base even back then. I got no gothic, medieval vibe from either level. Although, in line with the novelization and the one of the readings during DOOM, the Demons were subverting the bases with their own reality. I saw this as applying a great deal more to Phobos than Deimos, but that's just me. This is almost entirely a matter of interpretation, and interpretations can be very personal. I say almost entirely, because sometimes the developer's intent was obvious and a given interpretation can sometimes be an absurd interpretation. Hell is not a Tech Base, and Plutonia style IS distinct from TNT style. 

Edited March 12, 2023 by TheEyeOfStone

[Lost_Soul]

On 3/12/2023 at 3:10 PM, LadyMistDragon said:

That's a rather interesting way to describe it to say the least. While it was cool that it tried to replicate the settings of the game, it's not exactly regarded as fine literature in even the same category as something like the original Halo trilogy or Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy. While Flynn Taggert was a hilarious POV - I'm can't personally call it traditionally good and most people would say that the book and the sequels were all bad.

 

Well, out of all the media dedicated to DOOM it was by far the most true to its source material. It was certainly far better than the comic book or that terrible movie that was released in the 2000s. In all honesty, I cannot say that it wasn't pulp fiction...but it was very good pulp literature, at least in the way of overall entertainment value. I don't think I ever expected it to be Shakespeare. The sequels? I read them up to "Hell On Earth" and then I stopped and never read another sequel. "Hell On Earth" was the sh*ts...it was awful; I was sorely disappointed after having such high expectations from reading "Knee Deep in the Dead" - the only one actually worth reading. I was told by a reliable source that the other sequels did not get better so I passed those up.

 

On 3/12/2023 at 3:10 PM, LadyMistDragon said:

Good thread though! Some people never lose the ol' curiosity.

 

Yes, and thank you! :)

 

On 3/12/2023 at 3:26 PM, TheEyeOfStone said:

E1M5 opens with a moat of green slime that goes out from under one wall, across the room and under the other wall. The level has other green slime pits as well. I always interpreted this to mean that UAC was creating or processing slime on an industrial scale.

 

You bring up another good point. The green slime was even present on the very first map of the game ( "Hangar" ) which also makes no sense at all other than to provide the map with an environmental hazard to be avoided by the player. Your point about the slime evokes to mind the ectoplasmic slime seen in the movie "Ghostbusters II" - only the slime in that movie was pink instead of classic Nickelodeon Green in colour. This leaves room for speculation that possibly the slime was intended by the UAC to be the fuel that powers their dimensional gateway?

 

On another note, I always did think that the 'Pinky' demons loosely resembled those gargoyles that Rick Moranis and Sigourney Weaver's characters transformed into in the original "Ghostbusters" movie.

 

On 3/12/2023 at 3:26 PM, TheEyeOfStone said:

Pretty much the same goes for E2M4. My preteen brain interpreted what I was seeing as industrial / tech base even back then. I got no gothic, medieval vibe from either level.

 

Are we even talking about the same "Deimos Lab" from Shores Of Hell? I am going to have to disagree strongly with you there.

 

On 3/12/2023 at 3:26 PM, TheEyeOfStone said:

Although, in line with the novelization and the one of the readings during DOOM, the Demons were subverting the bases with their own reality. I saw this as applying a great deal more to Phobos than Deimos, but that's just me.

 

Pardon me but I think it probably is just you. You're saying that the research facilities on Phobos were altered more drastically than the ones on Deimos? Is it because that you assume that the locations found on Deimos already looked that way before the demon invasion started? Highly dubious from a story perspective.

 

On 3/12/2023 at 3:26 PM, TheEyeOfStone said:

This is almost entirely a matter of interpretation, and interpretations can be very personal. I say almost entirely, because sometimes the developer's intent was obvious and a given interpretation can sometimes be an absurd interpretation. Hell is not a Tech Base, and Plutonia style IS distinct from TNT style.  

 

Indeed, at least concerning the unstated thoughts of the developers...TNT: Evilution vs Plutonia Experiment styles though? I honestly haven't thought that deeply about it but certain levels like "Geryon" and "Virgil" definitely sported that classic Shores OF Hell/Inferno look. Just saying...

[aRottenKomquat]

Personally I don't think too much about that stuff, not with the classic IWADs anyway. Doom's rather thin and inconsistent lore is nothing more than a few shuffled bits of Tom Hall's original vision for the game which (accidentally, probably) made it into the released builds. So the bits that we see lack context and often aren't even applied in the right place. As much as I like exploring deep backstories and settings, and mentally mapping out a consistent understanding of them, that just isn't possible in this game. If you try, you end up about 25 puzzle pieces from 5 different 1000-piece puzzles, and you'll go crazy trying to put it together.

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by aRottenKomquat

[Lost_Soul]

I decided to watch some old playthroughs of the Windows PC version recently. Spawning Vats is even more radically different from the console ports than I remembered it being. I still remembered those weird shallow trenches in the hallways that would damage the player if they stood over them but I had forgotten just how much of the level itself incorporated the "tech base" aesthetic. Although the DOOM Wiki has been around for a while now, I only recently learned that the level design was originally in line to be chosen for the "Hangar" area before being repurposed. This actually makes sense seeing that it could pass for a map on Knee Deep in the Dead; I noticed that only a handful of rooms sported the eldritch look of the other maps from Shores of Hell. I'm not sure that this contributes anything useful to the main idea but I felt compelled to share my thoughts on it.

 

I actually have one other question at the moment. On Dis ( boss level from Inferno ), it looks like the doors in the courtyard are constantly opening to allow more demon reinforcements to assist the Spider Mastermind. Has anyone ever attempted going inside the doors that they appear from? Is it even possible to enter them? I know that it sounds like asking if Pac-Man could enter the little room that the ghosts appear from in that game. I just couldn't help asking this. Looking back, I'm not sure why that I never bothered experimenting with this before even though there would probably be nothing of benefit for the player gameplay-wise to say the least.

[Individualised]

15 minutes ago, Lost_Soul said:

I actually have one other question at the moment. On Dis ( boss level from Inferno ), it looks like the doors in the courtyard are constantly opening to allow more demon reinforcements to assist the Spider Mastermind. Has anyone ever attempted going inside the doors that they appear from? Is it even possible to enter them? I know that it sounds like asking if Pac-Man could enter the little room that the ghosts appear from in that game. I just couldn't help asking this. Looking back, I'm not sure why that I never bothered experimenting with this before even though there would probably be nothing of benefit for the player gameplay-wise to say the least.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. There isn't anything exactly like you describe, but the closest thing to that in that fight is the central door area where you can get the plasma gun. There's no monsters in there though, all of the monsters in that level are placed outside alongside the Spider Mastermind. Are you mixing it up with Fortress of Mystery since the version of Dis in most Jaguar-based ports is actually that level instead?

Edited April 18, 2023 by Individualised

[Lost_Soul]

17 minutes ago, Individualised said:

I'm not sure what you mean by this. There isn't anything exactly like you describe, but the closest thing to that in that fight is the central door area where you can get the plasma gun. There's no monsters in there though, all of the monsters in that level are placed outside alongside the Spider Mastermind. Are you mixing it up with Fortress of Mystery since the version of Dis in most Jaguar-based ports is actually that level instead?

 

I just looked it up and noticed that the doors on the outer walls that I remembered seeing were not there. Must be the Mandela Effect?

[Shepardus]

What you described sounds more like the final level of Doom 64 than Dis.

[Martin Howe]

On this point, has there ever been a community project to reimagine Classic Doom according to the level names? So central processing looks like a server farm, command control looks like a military control room, etc. (Satan alone knows what E4 would look like, though :P)

Edited April 24, 2023 by Martin Howe

[Biz!]

It's a pretty reasonable explanation that it's the Masterminds telepathy, at least in Ultimate Doom, the consequences are suffered throughout Doom II, but the Masterminds in there seem to more reasonably be considered "Spiderdemons" as they're a "common" enemy, same can be said for Thy Flesh Consumed.

The reason you didn't see anyajor techbase changes in Doom 3 is probably because there isn't a mastermind to warp it.

HOWEVER, it can be excused in the reboot games because of the Makyr tech.

[Maximum Matt]

4 hours ago, Martin Howe said:

On this point, has there ever been a community project to reimagine Classic Doom according to the level names? So central processing looks like a server farm, command control looks like a military control room, etc. (Satan alone knows what E4 would look like, though :P)

Sure, you've got DMBBATH2 (Knee Deep ][ - Bloodbath) on Maximum Doom, which from memory was 6 levels made to look like what the level names of the first 5 levels of KDITD would represent (plus the Military Base).  'Twas old-school, but interesting

[Shepardus]

6 hours ago, Martin Howe said:

On this point, has there ever been a community project to reimagine Classic Doom according to the level names? So central processing looks like a server farm, command control looks like a military control room, etc. (Satan alone knows what E4 would look like, though :P)

Doom 2 In Name Only, and the still under development Ultimate Doom In Name Only.

[Lost_Soul]

On 4/24/2023 at 5:41 PM, Maximum Matt said:

Sure, you've got DMBBATH2 (Knee Deep ][ - Bloodbath) on Maximum Doom, which from memory was 6 levels made to look like what the level names of the first 5 levels of KDITD would represent (plus the Military Base).  'Twas old-school, but interesting

 

Please tell us more. Links and videos are welcome.

[houston]

On 3/13/2023 at 5:39 AM, Lost_Soul said:

the Phobos Lab is the very first location on the game that features a "dimensional shambler/teleporter"

I love your creative interpretation of the quit message ("Don't go now, there's a dimensional shambler waiting at the DOS prompt!"), but unfortunately it's actually just the name of a monster from level maker Sandy Petersen's RPG "Call of Cthulu", itself first appearing Lovecraft's "The Horror in the Museum".

[Maximum Matt]

4 hours ago, Lost_Soul said:

Please tell us more. Links and videos are welcome.

Bikkidy-bam.

The Green Herring is a legend.  

[Lost_Soul]

17 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

Bikkidy-bam.

The Green Herring is a legend.  

 

The gameplay was certainly intense; not unlike a typical level in Episode 2 or 3. Thanks.

[Lost_Soul]

On 4/27/2023 at 12:59 AM, houston said:

I love your creative interpretation of the quit message ("Don't go now, there's a dimensional shambler waiting at the DOS prompt!"), but unfortunately it's actually just the name of a monster from level maker Sandy Petersen's RPG "Call of Cthulu", itself first appearing Lovecraft's "The Horror in the Museum".

 

So this is what a Dimensional Shambler actually is...

 

 

( learn something new every day )

Edited April 29, 2023 by Lost_Soul
fixing link

[Lost_Soul]

I noticed that Herring has a playlist of level playthroughs, though stages 6, 7 and 8 are omitted. The difficulty is insane in all of these.

 

The term "Lab" looks a bit more appropriate in this redesign, though the bars in the windows at the start make it more resemble a brig.

 

 

[Chocolate_Doomer]

I've always headcannoned that classic Doom levels are so weird because, whenever the demons invaded Phobos, they brought thier own reality with them, which warped the world beyond comprehension.

[Maximum Matt]

3 hours ago, Lost_Soul said:

I noticed that Herring has a playlist of level playthroughs, though stages 6, 7 and 8 are omitted.

Nah, it was only ever six levels, E1M1-5 and the secret level on 9 ( https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom/d-f/dmbbat ).  And yes, Sir Herring has a mighty playlist of old-school wads he's done walkthroughs of, quite the legend.  

[DoomPlayer00]

Are imps in original Dooms tech savvy? We often see them around computers and tech with possessed humans and especially in E2M7 "Spawning Vats" there's a lot of rooms with machines and computers surrounded by imps as if they're being operated by them.

Now I can't help but wonder if Doom's hell has its own large IT-department operated by imps who provide technical support for the other demons.