Discussion about the defining line between regular and tool assisted (including Turn180 key)

[banjiepixel]

First of all, I should state that I am not speedrunner myself but competitive gaming is pretty familiar to me in general and believe that the rules of competition should be well thought out and consistent. And in general I am just curious and want to learn about the community while maybe inspiring some discussion within it.

 

I don't think anyone could deny from the 100% puristic view that things like autorun and disabling vertical mouse movement are not vanilla features so technically they do count as tool assistance. Speedrunning of course doesn't necessarily need to 100% puristic so allowing many more modern QoL features even if they are unofficial (fan created) is fine if community agrees that it makes the game better speedrunning experience. Some speedrunning communites even may decide to alter the original game pretty radically with mods to make it more speedrunning friendly. As long as there are common rules used, any form of speedrunning is valid. There is technically nothing stopping me from starting a new form of Doom speedrunning that is separate from the standards and rules set by DSDA.

 

Setting those standards and rules can be tricky as there could always edge cases that defy the definitions written in to the rules. I think there should be discussion about those edge cases,no matter hypothetical they may be, to allow making the rules more solid and defined. Something like Turn180 key could function as a good example. It could very easily be seen as simple QoL feature that would greatly improve the experience of keyboard/controller players that is very minor change to the gameplay compared to many tools commonly used in tool assisted speedrunning. Turn180 key by itself is an edge case, it's automation being one step too far for many people while also being meaningless little hack when compared to actual TAS tools.

 

But there also could be some scenarios where the same effect that the Turn180 key could be gained ways that are much more in the gray area and maybe even more legit. Of course most obvious alternative could be using macros. Unless I am just being blind, the rules in the DSDA website do not seem state anything about using macros. That seems pretty strange to me and it does open alot of potential automation based edge cases.

 

Another edge case could be that some very obscure or highly specific control device could allow very fast and accurate 10 turn with less automation, maybe even purely by mechanical methods. Would there even be any point in banning Turn180 key if the very same thing would be possible specific control method that doesn't use any macros or other similar software tools.

 

Then we always do have options like nerfing Turn180 key when demo recording DSDA demos. Maybe make it be slower automated turn? There is basically almost no reason why Turn180 key must have instant effect. It could be easily balanced by being a real automated turn that is clearly faster than keyboard turning but slower than fast 180 mouse turn is on average. Basically something similar that Resident Evil 4 has and benefits would be pretty similar for keyboard only and controller players while allowing mouse turners to keep their advantage.

 

Where goes the line between making regular speedrunning better with extra tools and making tool assisted speedrun? Why is that line drawn there and not one step forward or one step back? What would happen if we would move that line one step forward or back? And what hypothetical scenarios would push us to move that line to any direction from where it is currently? Let's discuss!

[Master Medi]

Hello, hi. Why do you care if the 180key is banned if you're not a speedrunner? Your input becomes almost 0 immediately, this was pretty much discussed in the discord server as well. But thanks for participating

 

 

PS: sorry in advance maribo :^)

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Master Medi

[banjiepixel]

53 minutes ago, Master Medi said:

Hello, hi. Why do you care if the 180key is banned if you're not a speedrunner? Your input becomes almost 0 immediately, this was pretty much discussed in the discord server as well. But thanks for participating

 

That feels to me alot like a personal attack and elitism. What would you prefer, me to come to the Discord to talk about about the 180key?

 

This thread is meant to be free from the iron grip of the "old guard" and be a place to talk about any "radical" ideas about speedrunning rules for both those that do speedrun and those that do not. This is about general Doom speedrunning, not just the little discord club that you are part of. I could become a speedrunner and basically as I implied earlier, I may even possibly create a new Doom speedrunning standard that is different and separate from DSDA.

 

This is a place for free exhange of ideas about what is regular doom speedrunning and what is tool assisted and why. I do not care about what DSDA does, I just care about what Doom speedrunning should do in general and want use my ideas as more casual player as springboard for broader rule discussion in general. So why be so hostile and ignore what I say even if I don't speedrun?

Edited March 21, 2023 by banjiepixel

[El Juancho]

13 minutes ago, banjiepixel said:

A lot of text

Thanks for the copypasta 

[Andrea Rovenski]

19 minutes ago, banjiepixel said:

iron grip of the "old guard"

there is no iron grip on anything, and your attitude over the last week is the reason we don't care much for your input, not the content of your messages. Please just take the hint and cool off for a bit, maybe try doing some demos and look more into the history of the forum and archive. 

 

21 minutes ago, banjiepixel said:

I may even possibly create a new Doom speedrunning standard that is different and separate from DSDA.

feel free! many people including myself make up fun meme categories and they're almost always accepted on the archive, but if you want to go so outside the box that you need your own site, all the power to you. I'd like to see you try and beat some records :)

[Meowgi]

[Redneckerz]

It takes some balls to create a new thread pursuing the same point that got you flagged in the old thread. Doom's speedrunning community is tightly knit. That means your opinion shouldn't be invalidated but by the way you are presenting this, you are doomed (heh) to spark that debate, specifically because you want to be the plier that unknits that community.

 

Your choice of phrasing only enhances this impression.

 

2 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

First of all, I should state that I am not speedrunner myself but competitive gaming is pretty familiar to me in general and believe that the rules of competition should be well thought out and consistent.

They are consistent. You just disagree with it, which is strange considering you aren't part of the playing field.

 

Its like a bicycle mechanic telling a Indycar driver how they should drive.

2 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

There is technically nothing stopping me from starting a new form of Doom speedrunning that is separate from the standards and rules set by DSDA.

True, but your plan would carry little weight, because:

• You aren't a speedrunner.
• You simply disagree with the rules setforth within DSDA

2 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

Turn180 key by itself is an edge case, it's automation being one step too far for many people while also being meaningless little hack when compared to actual TAS tools.

This is the choice of phrasing i refer to. You consider it a meaningless little hack, when others, people who actually are speedrunners and were part of the community in the late 90's. Turn180 has implications, however subtle or grotesque, that deserve further analysis as to how prevalent it was and or/if it was even recognized back then.

 

For you to say it is meaningless highlights exactly why your statements were seen for what they were: A derail, by someone who isn't not at terms with speedrunning of the Doom community.

[j4rio]

>gets banned from a thread for clueless rant

>makes a new thread to continue said clueless rant

>refuses to elaborate further

 

Certified sigma male grindset

Edited March 21, 2023 by j4rio

[Maribo]

3 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

As long as there are common rules used, any form of speedrunning is valid. There is technically nothing stopping me from starting a new form of Doom speedrunning that is separate from the standards and rules set by DSDA.

All of this is true, and you're welcome to do so. Though I would also like to state that you do not have to abide by DSDA standards to post in these forums, people are free to post whatever kind of demos they want as long as they're not malicious.

 

3 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

Turn180 key by itself is an edge case, it's automation being one step too far for many people while also being meaningless little hack when compared to actual TAS tools.

You don't get to decide what a TAS tool is for DSDA. You can have an opinion on it, of course, but you are not the one who has the final say in what DSDA considers a TAS tool. This is true for every other game with a speedrunning community, they put their own lines in the sand over what TAS actually means, and DSDA is no different.

 

1 hour ago, banjiepixel said:

This thread is meant to be free from the iron grip of the "old guard" and be a place to talk about any "radical" ideas about speedrunning rules for both those that do speedrun and those that do not. This is about general Doom speedrunning, not just the little discord club that you are part of. I could become a speedrunner and basically as I implied earlier, I may even possibly create a new Doom speedrunning standard that is different and separate from DSDA. 

 

This is a place for free exhange of ideas about what is regular doom speedrunning and what is tool assisted and why. I do not care about what DSDA does, I just care about what Doom speedrunning should do in general and want use my ideas as more casual player as springboard for broader rule discussion in general. So why be so hostile and ignore what I say even if I don't speedrun?

There is no mystical "old guard". Most of today's active runners are people who started in the last ~5 years, and most of DSDA's web team hangs around somewhere in the ~10 year range, which is nothing compared to the fact that the game is turning 30 years old this year. "General Doom Speedrunning" is DSDA, sorry to say. Obviously the Unity community and other stuff like the console communities exist, along with people who just post their random runs to YouTube and don't care about demos or DSDA or speedrun.com or whatever else (which is totally fine and cool btw), but for the purpose of speedrunning Doom on PC... DSDA is the longest standing and most active one, with rules and categories that have adapted along with the community that submits to it. For the record as well, almost every speedrunning community is a "little discord club", as you put it. The hobby is nowhere near as niche as it used to be, but ultimately every community is still just a little group of people who gravitate together because they like a thing enough that they want to talk about it, compete/cooperate, etc.

 

As for why people are defaulting to replying with things like "you don't run this game, why do you care?", well... Every single time we have some kind of rule discussion or major change to something like DSDA-Doom, suddenly people who have never posted in the demo forums in their life feel like they have to weigh in with their (strong) opinion on a situation in a hobby that they don't even participate in, or the thread gets sidetracked by something completely unrelated (this is why I aggressively stopped the ChatGPT bit in the other thread). To be clear: I don't care if people who don't run this game have an opinion about our rules or how we do things, you're entitled to that opinion just like anyone else, but just as much as you're welcome to have that opinion, it does not mean it will be taken into consideration whatsoever. You may be interested in genuinely discussing Turn180 key validity, but you also felt like it was appropriate to make weird digs at DSDA's lack of category differentiation for input method, along with saying DSDA has uncreative categories that are limited in terms of playstyle (what?), and also shoving a "feelings over facts" comment in there for good measure. I also have no idea what makes you think you have some significantly more rational view over what a TAS input consists of, considering the definition of a TAS input is always arbitrarily defined by the community for whatever game is being discussed.

 

This thread is not being locked because of the desire to discuss Turn180 (or any other rule for that matter), it's being locked because it's already rooted in bad faith engagement from a topic that isn't even dead in its first thread.

 

I would LOVE for people to make genuine discussion threads over topics like this, I want people who don't run this game to take an interest in it and ask questions, I want people to post their demos in the forum even if they're incompatible demos that will never make it to DSDA. I do not want to deal with people who come into the hobby and immediately start asserting that we are doing things the wrong way.