For those who dislike Slaughter maps...

[LadyMistDragon]

Someone needs to take a breath and calm down, maybe step away entirely. 

 

But honestly, if you're upset at being told your way of looking at things is wrong, it might be time to evaluate why something said on a forum is making you so upset to the extent that "nuance" gets put in air quotes Just food for thought.:)

[Fiber Wire]

I am not angry, just really confused by this discussion. People were talking about what they disliked about it and then people came in talking about how we’re wrong, we’re just haters, we don’t understand the complexities of level design, we’re not nuanced enough, etc. I just don’t think that’s appropriate to generalize everyone’s opinions that way, and to try to twist it into a skill issue or any issue other than different preferences is not something I agree with.
 

But you’re right, I should step away from this discussion because clearly it is just going to get worse for all involved. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Fiber Wire

[Dopaminecloud]

What's interesting is you'll never really hear these kind of generalized complaints over simple easy maps that do the same Knee Deep in the Dead stuff we've all seen for decades. It's only when some facet of doom's gameplay is highlighted you'll have people bouncing off of it. Focus on platforming, resource management, mazes, puzzles, space restriction, crowd control (most slaughter is here), weapon limitation, hazards or even light hindrance and you'll have someone hate it.

And the reason to hate it is for the majority of the time not being good at dealing with it, it's frustrating. Frustration leads to getting bored. These are the primary complaints we see for slaughter here. Obviously all of these things can be executed poorly, but generally it's difficulty that causes the problem. But the difficulty isn't just that it's "hard", it's being forced out of the comfort zone. I believe because balanced regular maps are the most common they invite the development of a kind of zen playstyle; a large part of doom's appeal becomes the ease at which it induces flow state during play. Having that taken away from you is off-putting which makes for an easy transition into poor reception when combined with repeat failure.

At least that's what I think is going on.

[Maribo]

1 hour ago, Fiber Wire said:

I just don’t think that’s appropriate to generalize everyone’s opinions that way

"it's just trial and error, and luck"

"lack of respect for casual players"

"Cheap and unpredictable warp-ins/monster closets, limited supplies, unpredictable monster triggers" [...] "You spam rockets and BFGs at large hordes until they die."
"Things tend to be improved by having dynamics"
"boring, repetitive slogs by people who mistake sheer numbers for interesting encounter design"
"The Press Fire + circle strafe combo for more than 5 minutes can get boring fast"

"I don’t like that most slaughtermaps rely on luck rather than truly testing skill"

"With a lot of slaughter maps, they're quite simple once you know what's coming."

"its only challenge is to figure out how to kill stuff without getting killed"

"They require high amounts of effort and even luck to complete."

Edited March 23, 2023 by Maribo

[DNSKILL5]

I think one problem is so many people refuse to play on lower difficulty settings. They want to play on UV no matter what, and I think that should change. If you’re short on time and/or if it is too hard, try a lower difficulty setting. Chances are you’ll complete the map faster, and still have enough of an experience to decide if you’d want to replay it on a harder skill later when you may have a bit more time to play. Some maps won’t mesh with everyone, that’s just how it is, but at least give it a chance before writing it off. Now, if the level designer didn’t incorporate difficulty settings then there’s not much you can do besides moving on if you aren’t up for the task. 

[ＤΞＬＴΛ]

On 3/22/2023 at 4:16 AM, Fidchell said:

This is all purely out of curiosity and I'm not against anyone who dislikes slaughter.

 

I can guarantee you mate, that one person here is going to take such an atomic shit-fest over it, that they'll quite possibly attack you on this thread, and most likely PMs as well like a rabid twitter user who just woke up and hasn't had their coffee and anti-psychotics yet...

 

On topic though, I personally think that stuffing a 512 x 512 room full of archviles, pain elementals (especially those fucks), cyberdemons, revenants, and chaingunners and calling it a "challenge" should be a fucking cardinal sin, it's not challenging, it's just a room full-o-bullshit and you can't prove otherwise...

[StarTanned]

I can't help but think that the issue here is just that "slaughter map" means too many different things to folks, and folks lump too much together when they talk about it. I mean, we don't go around judging all "non-slaughter" maps by the standards of the vast, VAST number of shitty boring ones that suck, and not giving the good ones a fair shake. If you can't enjoy the thrill of a well-designed map that tries to give you a feeling like you're in the Running of the Bulls, then that's not really the map's problem, after all. Lots of people think they hate slaughter maps until they discover the good ones just when they're ready for something a little spicier than casual Dooming. Anyway, I'll shut up now and let folks hurl virtual bricks at one another :)

[Ancalagon]

1 hour ago, DELTA256 said:

On topic though, I personally think that stuffing a 512 x 512 room full of archviles, pain elementals (especially those fucks), cyberdemons, revenants, and chaingunners and calling it a "challenge" should be a fucking cardinal sin, it's not challenging, it's just a room full-o-bullshit and you can't prove otherwise...

This sounds like a pretty good map got a link to it?

Edited March 23, 2023 by Ancalagon

[xdarkmasterx]

36 minutes ago, Ancalagon said:

This sounds like a pretty good map got a link to it?

 

I found it! :D https://www.dropbox.com/s/j7lilbo23h1ripx/epic_slaughter.wad?dl=0

[treulosetomate]

8 hours ago, magicsofa said:

So? They also require a time investment. They require strategic thinking against massive waves. Often, they do require a large amount of repetition. If its a more complex strategy than "just circlestrafe" that you need in a giant battle, then that just multiplies the amount of work the player needs to do.

Like a dancer practicing a dance choreography in order to perform it flawlessly. What a waste of time.

[Fairen]

6 hours ago, Maribo said:

 

I dunno, maybe I'm deranged for thinking anyone has any interest in nuanced discussion anyway.

Several people here have given nuanced opinions; their opinions just aren't "nuanced" in the way you want them to be (i.e. agreeing with you).

 

5 hours ago, Xaser said:

"Hey, your dog pooped in the living room again."

 

"I dunno, if this happens again and again and bothers you that much, then why bother going into the living room at all?"

No, let's be honest here, what it really is is hearing that other people were invited to someone else's living room to have a discussion, and then deciding they were wrong to have that discussion and therefore taking time out of their day to barge into said living room and poop on the floor themselves. Then proceeding to blame the people who wanted to participate in the original discussion for themselves pooping on the floor.

 

5 hours ago, LadyMistDragon said:

Someone needs to take a breath and calm down, maybe step away entirely. 

 

But honestly, if you're upset at being told your way of looking at things is wrong, it might be time to evaluate why something said on a forum is making you so upset to the extent that "nuance" gets put in air quotes Just food for thought.:)

Typically, when someone online accuses those with other opinions of getting unreasonably offended by contrary opinions...

 

5 hours ago, Dopaminecloud said:

What's interesting is you'll never really hear these kind of generalized complaints over simple easy maps that do the same Knee Deep in the Dead stuff we've all seen for decades. It's only when some facet of doom's gameplay is highlighted you'll have people bouncing off of it. Focus on platforming, resource management, mazes, puzzles, space restriction, crowd control (most slaughter is here), weapon limitation, hazards or even light hindrance and you'll have someone hate it.

And the reason to hate it is for the majority of the time not being good at dealing with it, it's frustrating. Frustration leads to getting bored. These are the primary complaints we see for slaughter here. Obviously all of these things can be executed poorly, but generally it's difficulty that causes the problem. But the difficulty isn't just that it's "hard", it's being forced out of the comfort zone. I believe because balanced regular maps are the most common they invite the development of a kind of zen playstyle; a large part of doom's appeal becomes the ease at which it induces flow state during play. Having that taken away from you is off-putting which makes for an easy transition into poor reception when combined with repeat failure.

At least that's what I think is going on.

...no. You absolutely will see people criticize WADs for being too easy.

 

And frankly, you're just flat-out saying that "people who don't like a thing just suck at it". I've played slaughter maps. I've beat those slaughter maps. That experience with slaughter maps is why I can say that slaughter maps are more tedious than challenging.

 

When someone's opinion is "your opinion is wrong and you only have that opinion because you're not good at it", that implies that they believe they're better than other people for playing and enjoying that kind of content. Pointing out the common problems with slaughter maps, and daring to suggest that they're not purely down to skill and talent, thus puts that belief into question—and results in such people taking criticism of that thing that makes them "gud" as a personal attack on their perceived skills.

[Azure_Horror]

Ok, full disclosure, I quite like slaughter.

 

I find it very sad, that the thread gets flooded by over-generalized assumptions and hurt feelings. And both Slaughter Enthusiasts and Slaughter Skeptics do this. Slaughter Enthusiasts an Slaughter Skeptics keep talking past each other and keep getting defensive of their opinions. This leads to unhelpful generalizations being thrown all over the place, and flooding some genuine attempts to start a more nuanced discussion.

 

Both Enthusiasts and Skeptics do this!

 

For example:

Saying that "all slaughter combat is a huge BFG-fiesta" is an over-generalization. But saying that "no, slaughter combat is not a BFG fiesta" kinda misses the point! BFG fiestas are part of slaughter genre. I am yet to play a dedicated slaughter mapset, where BFG fiestas do not happen. There is much more to slaughter, of course, don't get me wrong. But BFG fiestas are there too, and denying that looks silly.

 

Worse still, sometimes "not a BFG fiesta" fights look kinda disturbing on a first glance:

The fiesta part is right there all right, however there is no BFG! Such set ups sometimes feel like "ha-ha-ha, gottem! It is not BFG-fiesta, cause no-BFG, lalala!"*. And encountering such things can feel very cheap, especially if lack the detailed knowledge about slaughter problem-solving strategies. And guess what? Slaughter skeptics play slaughter rarely (Duh!). They naturally know less about more tricky starts (Duh!).

Thus, the feeling of "ha-ha-ha, gottem! It is not BFG-fiesta, cause no-BFG, lalala!"* may appear much more brazen for Slaughter Skeptics than for, say, me.

 

*Footnote: such feeling arises as knee-jerk reaction. Often times, it is completely misguided. However dismissing a knee-jerk reaction as "misguided", or "irrelevant" is often counterproductive, especially when we are talking hobbies. Instead, it is better to explain, what other fun stuff can be found there.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Azure_Horror

[Biodegradable]

On 3/22/2023 at 4:46 AM, Fidchell said:

What don't you like about slaughter maps?

 

For me personally, I find the style simply too overwhelming. I can handle a slaughter encounter here and there as a set-piece in an otherwise Classic style map, but when it's the entire map's focus and is a constant onslaught with huge waves of meat filling every nook and cranny of the screen, I can't cope with it very well. It feels like information overload, sends me into a panic and makes my brain melt. Simple as that, honestly.

 

I do try to explore these kind of maps whenever a new one comes out because I always have - and probably always will - want to check out every new thing that comes out of the Doom creativity pipeline out of sheer excitement and curiosity, but I'd be lying if I said I was a fan of this particular mapping style. I've improved a lot as a Doomer these past two years in my Baptism by Fire in regards to community-made WADs and always try and take up the challenge and will never hold anything against the mapper should I find the map a bit too much. I've even managed to actually pull off miracles and beat a few slaughtermaps that @NoOne has shared with us over the past year or so, giving me the practice I need for future challenges I may decide to take on in the future. At this current stage though, based on my own sensibilities regarding the kind of Doom maps I enjoy playing, slaughter is something I regard as fine in very small doses, but much too overwhelming if it's the main focus.

 

That all being said, I very much understand the appeal of the mapping style and from watching people build these kind of maps and others play them, there's definitely skill involved as both a mapper and a player. Just like the Classic style, people who make these kind of maps and pour hours into them can pull off some amazing feats of creativity and ingenuity. The works of @Bridgeburner56 and @Insane_Gazebo, even if you're a card-carrying Slaughtermap Hater, have to admit the things they've pulled off are simply incredible. I sincerely hope I eventually develop a better taste for the mapping genre just to be able to experience their work to the fullest at some point.

 

At the end of the day though - like a lot of other people have mentioned - while I do relish a good challenge and overcoming them can be exhilarating at times, I play to unwind and have fun after a long day and the stress and anxiety I usually find myself tussling with when playing a slaughtermap is simply not fun for me. Not yet, anyways. ;^)

Edited March 23, 2023 by Biodegradable

[Professor Hastig]

I cannot stand maps that constantly keep me on edge without even a small moment of rest in between. Slaughter maps are the most prominent example of this, but it's something I encountered in less extreme maps as well.

[Misty]

I can't say that I dislike slaughter maps, there's niche for everything and everyone around. I'm simply not the target audience for it and that's fine by me. Besides, I don't have much time as used to be like few years back, sometimes I just want load maps, play few of them mindlessly, to relax my mind and close port for the day before doing something else. 

[enigma101]

I think that a lot of people see slaughter maps as just being mindless or boring, but I've played a lot of slaughter maps that have challenged how I play Doom, or how I prioritize monsters in fights. I can see why some people write off slaughter maps, as some are just "here's 150 monsters and an SSG, deal with it", but a large amount of maps have a lot of effort put into them, both with the design of the map and how the player has to deal with the monsters.

[heliumlamb]

Spoiler

hold up let me cook

i don't eat plates filled with just peppers, and only peppers now. if you want to construe this as an overarching disdain for peppers, that is your imperative. if you wish to hassle folks time and time again with astounding recursion over whether or not you and they like high quantities of peppers, that is your highly misguided activity.

 

i think peppers are good! and i have peppers, in one form or another, in just about every one of my meals. i grow peppers too! but a plate that solely consists of peppers is no balanced dish (not like my meals are incredibly balanced anyway). sometimes, i'll vary the amount of peppers if it's one of my regular recipes. mood and taste are always a life factor in flux. sometimes a raw pepper on its own here and there is a neat treat. but peppers on their own, all the time, is practiced futility, and not particularly nutritious. many factors, many textures, many materials safe for human consumption must go into consideration when assembling a meal. and many meals can turn out disastrous, but i mostly cook for myself and my own sustenance, so maybe one the 8billion+ humans could've liked any of my disastrous dishes. there are many ways in which a pepper (or two, or three, or four, or five, or * ) could work within a dish, maybe you want to make a pepper-centric dish? awesome! it absolutely is possible to construct a dish that has a focus on peppers. but a dish that is nothing but peppers is practiced futility and not nutritious. what's going alongside your peppers? for me, it's some sort or assortment of beans, some sort or assortment of grains, some sort or assortment of spices (some but not all of which may, themselves, be pepper-derived), and whatever other photosynthesized materials i have on hand to round its composition out (if you eat blood-based food, feel free to mentally add that to the preceding sentence if it helps you relate and understand). if one were to take a dish of mine (and since i cook for myself 99% of the time, this does not happen) and only focus only on the peppers, and not that which contains the peppers (the whole), to the point where the peppers are in their mind the sole focus of that dish, regardless of pepper quantity, i would at first be confused, then disappointed. not disappointed at their perception of said dish, mind you, but disappointed in myself for not providing something substantial to work in conjunction with and sufficiently supplement those peppers they are inclined to pinpoint. but sometimes, i'll be feinding for a dish heavy on the peppers, and with some hard hitting peppers too. but a plate that consists solely of peppers and nothing to work with those peppers is no balanced dish, and not incredibly nutritious. practiced futility. nuts!! (as in bonkers, not as in seeds) i do however, need to eat for sustenance. i cook what i like to eat, but i had to figure that out by eating, first.

 

and some people may think that mayonnaise is spicy. you know what!? those aren't my taste buds, so why should i care?

feel free to:

crucify/dogpile me for my individual thought patterns and maintaining a perception that is not your own, truncate my statements to generalize - remove context and ultimately deride them (either directly or through implication), and call into question my ability to eat food based on my choice and desire to not eat just peppers and only peppers. keep in mind that i like to keep the seeds in during preparation and cooking if they're fresh, and i often use quantities that may induce perspiration during consumption

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by heliumlamb
where >> were, + "peppers."

[TimeOfDeath666]

5 hours ago, Fairen said:

And frankly, you're just flat-out saying that "people who don't like a thing just suck at it". I've played slaughter maps. I've beat those slaughter maps. That experience with slaughter maps is why I can say that slaughter maps are more tedious than challenging.

 

When someone's opinion is "your opinion is wrong and you only have that opinion because you're not good at it", that implies that they believe they're better than other people for playing and enjoying that kind of content. Pointing out the common problems with slaughter maps, and daring to suggest that they're not purely down to skill and talent, thus puts that belief into question—and results in such people taking criticism of that thing that makes them "gud" as a personal attack on their perceived skills.

Every time there’s a slaughtermap thread I ask the haters to post a non-tas max demo to show their hate isn’t about lack of skill. Are you going to be the first person to actually post a demo?

[DNSKILL5]

People don’t like something, other people do, they argue as if it’s going to change anyone’s minds, then they make it more personal, then the thread gets locked, rinse and repeat. It’s getting old. 

[Dopaminecloud]

7 hours ago, treulosetomate said:

Like a dancer practicing a dance choreography in order to perform it flawlessly. What a waste of time.

I'm not sure videogames are your thing if you look in terms of productivity at a pastime. It's an experiental value, to spend time learning the absurd is a luxury not everyone gets.

 

6 hours ago, Fairen said:

And frankly, you're just flat-out saying that "people who don't like a thing just suck at it". I've played slaughter maps. I've beat those slaughter maps. That experience with slaughter maps is why I can say that slaughter maps are more tedious than challenging.

 

When someone's opinion is "your opinion is wrong and you only have that opinion because you're not good at it", that implies that they believe they're better than other people for playing and enjoying that kind of content. Pointing out the common problems with slaughter maps, and daring to suggest that they're not purely down to skill and talent, thus puts that belief into question—and results in such people taking criticism of that thing that makes them "gud" as a personal attack on their perceived skills.

 

Oh relax. I've just personally never seen a stigma against easy maps the way people get hung up over slaughter. Even you beat some lengthy but easy maps and then equate the whole format to be tedium, it's a silly stance. I don't think I'm better at all, I'm not that good at them to begin with but I know for a fact I'm more reasonable in disliking on case by case basis instead of forming allergies to big rooms with a lot of enemies. My actual point was the comfort-zone, the sanctity of the zen state and the way distorted focus gameplay such as heavy crowd control takes this away from people as being the source of a sour mood. I mention that any concept can be executed poorly, but slaughter as a whole shouldn't be judged by poor examples obviously.

I really suggest Fireking Says No Cheating from BTSX e2, that map is an absolute joy, absolutely falls under the slaughter umbrella and I will be personally impressed with your ability to dislike the combat of a game you love if you find tedium even there. The initial reaction to the shenanigans, the pain of realization, the slow development of strategy up until great victory over the process of several hours is BEAUTIFUL in that map.

[Lucius Wooding]

There are good and bad slaughter maps for sure. But what is really rare is a thread about them that doesn't become as negative and repetitive and divisive as the maps are accused of being themselves. After a few posts of interesting conversation it makes me go "I've seen this before" and move on, in the same way killing a group of 20 revenants makes me not care to slay the redundant 980 that remain. Obviously a lot of people can't get enough of slaughter and there's no point trying to argue or pick a right side. 

 

For me the slaughter label is usually a sign to shy away, mainly because I like blind friendly and short maps; they can have some variation in styles and still be very enjoyable for me. But usually for a slaughter map to be blind friendly it'll just be spoon feeding the player, and generally the higher population typical of the genre adds to the length a fair bit, especially if going for all kills. So it's difficult to conform to the slaughter genre entirely and still be in my wheelhouse. I don't mind if a map is fairly tough but I don't like monsters being shoveled on me for 20+ minutes. I play without saves and I like going at my own pace. 

[mrthejoshmon]

They're not my style, I do not enjoy them and I do not wish to consume them as a medium.

 

There is no nuance to my opinion, this is quite literally all there is to it.

[Azure_Horror]

On 3/21/2023 at 8:46 PM, Fidchell said:

• What don't you like about slaughter maps?
• What type of gameplay do you typically prefer?
• What do you consider your favorite WAD of all time and what do you love about it?

This is all purely out of curiosity and I'm not against anyone who dislikes slaughter. Thanks for your time!

Ok, technically I do not exactly qualify, 'cause I do enjoy many slaughter maps. However, I don't love them unconditionally, so there go my answers...

 

What do I dislike about slaughter maps?

When a slaughter maps fails to be fun, the failures are quite impactful. Slaughter maps are extreme by design, and this makes my favorite slaughter maps (like Struggle map 27, or Down the Drain map 31, or Fractured Worlds map 04) extremely fun to play and replay. However, when a slaughter map has some kind of subjectively un-fun (for me) element, that element still needs to be engaged with! And this element still demands a lot of time and attention, because slaughter maps tend to be colossal in scope.

Two reocuring examples are:

a) Lengthy clean up after "Disarming" the main part of the fight.

b) Half-Meme archvile hordes, like the BFG fight of Fractured Worlds map 02, or the final big battle of Ray Mohawk 2 map 19.

 

What type of gameplay do I typically prefer?

I don't have any concrete preferred gameplay type. I like slaughter, I like Plutonian combat, I like 'modernist' gameplay sub-genre, I like nostalgic old-school stuff, I like maps focused on the journey and the mood.

 

What do I consider your favorite WAD of all time and what do I love about it?

My favorite WAD of all time? It is a tough question...

It is either Ozonia, or 180 Minutes Pour Vivre. That said, Struggle and Eviternity are not that far behind. And Wormwood III, while not exactly my most favorite WAD, does feel very special to me too... Is there anything that those 5 WADs have in common? Maybe a trifecta of Aesthetics, Genre Diversity and Unique Encounter Design Approach?

[Roofi]

I may be defining slaughtermaps too broadly but honestly, I don't know if it's possible to not like the genre at all. Didn't you ever get a kick out of blasting hordes of imps with the rocket launcher? Spamming the BFG after having a sphere of invulnerability? Or just having big guns and lots of ammo? 

 

I suppose lot of people consider slaughter as a synonym as hard. 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Roofi

[dististik]

1 hour ago, Roofi said:

I suppose lot of people consider slaughter as a synonym as hard. 

 

That honestly does seem to be a big part of I guess the problem(?) with discussion around slaughter. Quoting MtPain27 a bit here, but often times it does just feel like the overarching definition of "slaughter map" to a not insignificant number of people can be boiled down to at some point someone said "Wow this is really fucking hard" and leaves out the parts of the genre like microslaughter or easy (by design) slaughter.

 

I also used to hold the opinion of slaughter is no fun and unfair because what the hell am I supposed to do, but also I'd play stuff like 1 Monster and get a kick out of rocketing loads of imps to death. Sounds like a load of revenants or hell knights all dying at once from a rocket launcher or BFG are really, really satisfying but a lot of the time I see people think slaughter as a whole is just Sunder. And sure, there's something to be said about the huge influence that wad has had over the genre, it'd be silly to say slaughter mappers aren't usually inspired by Gazebo's work, but like people who write off genres of music because they only heard what was played on the radio I think it's awfully silly to say all slaughter is x y and/or z and deciding to dislike the whole lot.

[reaction]

This has been one of the most interesting threads on DW to read through. I agree with others in that a lot of strife in the discourse about "slaughter maps" is due to semantics and lack of definition.

 

Personally, I find I enjoy slaughter maps more when they are specific maps in a larger mapset, rather than the being the whole mapset being slaughtermaps. It's very satisfying when I figure out the 'trick' to each encounter after it's kicked my ass a few times. I have enjoyed some slaughter sets but very rarely do I actually finish one. 

One problem I have with slaughter maps is a lack of trust. When I see someone I don't recognize post a slaughter map there's a niggling thought in the back of my mind that gives me trepidation "I wonder if this is actually beatable and not full of shitty design". I think that comes from my lack of proficiency when it comes to slaughter in that I don't feel like I can recognize when it's a good map that's hard or when it's a shit map that's unreasonably hard.

 

I think the whole discussion might boil down to if the player gets sufficient enjoyment from killing large masses of similar monsters with a small handful of weapons. That shit gets me off but I can totally see that it might be boring for other people.

[Fairen]

10 hours ago, TimeOfDeath666 said:

Every time there’s a slaughtermap thread I ask the haters to post a non-tas max demo to show their hate isn’t about lack of skill. Are you going to be the first person to actually post a demo?

I only post demonstrations of my skills to people who themselves prove their own, by doing a no-death TGL mode run of The Guardian Legend without using Enemy Erasers and while singing the chorus of Andy Gibb's "An Everlasting Love" over and over. Only once a person has cleared this arbitrary hurdle do I consider their opinions on "skill" and lack thereof to be valid (unless, of course, I already agreed with what they were saying beforehand).

[DynamiteKaitorn]

So the main issues I have with Slaughter wads is more on how its handled. I've played several and some range from "Lots of enemies but good movement means you take less damage" to "Pog! I Plasad 600 reVonAntz In a HallWaY w1tH 1 PaTh1?!"

 

For the first category, they don't bug me so much. At least I can enter them and try to enjoy them... but when you're asking me to take down several barons and archviles with nothing more than a basic shotgun, I'm not going to stick around to find out.

 

As for the other half. NO. No I WONT fight several enemies in a super-cramped room. ESPECIALLY REVENANTS!

[DSC]

15 hours ago, Fairen said:

a bunch of "slaughter map bad" rants

After seeing your extreme insistence in arguing against slaughtermaps in this thread, I decided to take a look at one of your reviews of a popular slaughter/combat puzzle wad (Sunlust, specifically). And oh boy... Is it hard to take you seriously after reading that. Here is said review of you want to take a look at it.

 

You start by giving immediately one out of five stars, like... What? Is this a fucking 1994 boxy and flat wad? Putting aside the gameplay aspect of Sunlust (which you argue against too with some extremely shitty points, but we'll get to that in a bit), have you seen how fucking well-detailed and just gorgeous Sunlust is? Have you ever stopped for a split second to think about the amount of time Ribbiks and dane spent painstakingly building those maps? And you just immediately come down shitting on top of all that hard work and effort and give it the lowest possible score to something miles above a 1994 STARTAN hell just because the gameplay's not your style? For someone who cries a lot about people not respecting your opinion you don't seem very capable of practicing what you preach.

 

But anyways, moving along... You start immediately by stating Sunlust is just BFG spam. Wow, extreme over-generalizations already, what a good sign. You say "Many of these maps are spent simply taking out your BFG and holding down the fire button". No mention of the fact many Sunlust maps don't give you the BFG outright and you have to fight your way to get it, instead making you rely on other weapons like the rocket launcher or the plasma rifle? No mention of the fact that, in the situations in which you do have the BFG, you still have to maneuver around the enemies and their projectiles, taking into account the enemy placement? Even the "when you get the BFG all you have to do is hold down fire" is completely wrong: there are many scenarios in which you have to consider carefully where to fire your shots to make sure it kills the enemies that need to be killed first. This is Sunlust, one of the harder Doom mapsets: why are you even talking as if you only need to press a single button down to beat it at all?

 

You continue with "the maps often eschew complex encounters based around level design in favour of simply throwing massive hordes of enemies at you. Naturally, a large number of these hordes consist entirely of revenants. When Sunlust isn't doing this, it's fond of warping in or opening monster closets directly behind you, trapping you in cramped arenas, and placing hitscanners in cheap locations and overabundance." Well... First of all, the revenant thing is just a flat out lie. Sunlust makes a very balanced use of Doom's enemy roster and there are plenty of memorable fights with demons besides the bony boys. But other than that... Bloody fucking hell, where do I even start?! Your extreme arrogance and lack of humility talking shit about the works of two of the most talented community members is astounding. "the maps often eschew complex encounters based around level design in favour of simply throwing massive hordes of enemies at you", are you saying with a straight face that they just took a shit on top of Doom Builder and went along with it? You seriously don't think they took a massive amount perfecting the level layouts? And building the enemy encounters inside of them? If you look at things like the famous circular room of MAP29 and your conclusion is that their mapping attempts are just monkeys throwing their shit around randomly, I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be allowed to review Doom levels anymore. You even fucking mention the arenas that trap you inside, a very clear usage of level design to make the fights more challenging revolving around the change and modifications of the level layout around you. You contradict yourself in your own shitty argument.

 

Next paragraph: "Though the map recommends UV only for "ubermensch doom-gods", lower difficulties change almost nothing about how the maps play. You're still having massive hordes throw themselves at you(r BFG), with the only differences being that the hordes are a bit smaller and some of them are replaced with weaker enemies." This concern is understandable, but you have to remember its impossible to properly balance a map for every single difficulty setting. Balancing an entire 32 map megawad on UV once is hard enough, imagine doing it three times! Besides that, a map is always going to be defined by the difficulty it was mostly balanced around: a hard Sunlust map is always going to have the design elements of a map especifically created to be difficult, and vice-versa with easier maps.

 

Last  paragraph...: "While it didn't start terribly, Sunlust quickly devolved into a joyless experience, where almost every major fight turns into the same repetitive chore and victory felt less like a result of skill and strategy than "okay, now I know what BS happens here". It's a perfect example of how trying to design a WAD around "challenge!" often overlooks making encounters and levels interesting, unique, or just plain fun." Again, I have already pointed out how stupid the "Sunlust doesn't create encounters around its level design" thing is before. But this " almost every major fight turns into the same repetitive chore and victory" statement just feels so wrong... Sunlust has such an incredible variety of encounters, so many different scenarios it comes up with. "victory felt less like a result of skill and strategy than "okay, now I know what BS happens here"", reading this is like reading a review from a strange alternate universe where Hitchcock and Wells only made shitty low-brow comedies. Every encounter in Sunlust is different, every solution is different and using your head to figure out what the strategy is for each single encounter is a big part of the fun and the appeal of this kind of wads. People have even coined the term "combat puzzle" to describe this kind of design. Talking like its just pure luck and randomness just feels so wrong to me.

 

After this long rant, you might expect me to want you crucified for disliking Sunlust. But you know what? I believe disliking Sunlust is perfectly fine. Its definitely not a wad for everyone. One of the other reviews in there, from Doomkid, states the same thing. It wasn't his cup of tea either. But you know what sets his review apart from yours? He still gave Sunlust much praise for being a work where a lot of work, heart and soul went into it. Not everybody can enjoy the same thing, and that's alright, its just how we humans are. But even when you don't appreciate something, that doesn't mean there wasn't any care put into it. Extreme metal is not for everybody, but calling it stupid and talentless when things like growling and drumming very fast require a lot of effort and dedication is just flat out wrong. For someone who preached a lot in your rants about "respecting others opinions" you don't seem to accomplish that very well. Yes, the enjoyment someone takes out of anything is subjective. The effort, blood, sweat and tears and the respect that should come from it isn't.

[Grassy chunks]

11 hours ago, TimeOfDeath666 said:

Every time there’s a slaughtermap thread I ask the haters to post a non-tas max demo to show their hate isn’t about lack of skill. Are you going to be the first person to actually post a demo?

This video of yours might be one of the best non-tas uv-max demos of any wads I've seen so far.

(A little biased since you were the one who made this slaughtermap.)

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Grassy chunks