For those who dislike Slaughter maps...

[Fairen]

I'm just going to posit one more thing, and that's my absolute certainty that of all the folks talking about what they dislike about slaughter maps in this thread that specifically asked for the opinions of people who dislike slaughter maps...

 

...absolutely none of these people would be barging into a thread asking fans of such maps about what they like about slaughter maps to complain about other people having Wrong Opinions, insisting they're just not gud at the gam, expecting people to waste time doing something they don't like in order to justify having their opinions, or flat-out trawling through people's posting histories for the sake of laughably-petty personal attacks.

[LadyMistDragon]

 

12 minutes ago, Fairen said:

I'm just going to posit one more thing, and that's my absolute certainty that of all the folks talking about what they dislike about slaughter maps in this thread that specifically asked for the opinions of people who dislike slaughter maps...

 

...absolutely none of these people would be barging into a thread asking fans of such maps about what they like about slaughter maps to complain about other people having Wrong Opinions, insisting they're just not gud at the gam, expecting people to waste time doing something they don't like in order to justify having their opinions, or flat-out trawling through people's posting histories for the sake of laughably-petty personal attacks.

 

 

Nobody is barging in anywhere. What's happening is that too many opinions about slaughter maps boil down to "kill thousands of monsters with no strategy involved" or "they're too hard," neither of which are necessarily true and it's only natural that people  will show up to counter said arguments. Nobody is attacking your right to have an opinion. Endless and most other folks who fall more into the 'dislike' can do so without saying "slaughter=bad". I think the main issue is that slaughter defenders might see posts like yours and maybe 1 or 2 others and just see a whole lot of generalizations based on bad experiences. 

 

I don't think there's anything 'laughably petty' in pointing out that a review of Sunlust which for the most part, can not be called full-on slaughter, basically scored it one out of 5 because it was too hard or whatever. You're free not to have the patience to play slaughter maps or challenge maps but state an opinion that's surface level, and you should expect some vigorous defenses telling you 'that you're wrong.'

Edited March 24, 2023 by LadyMistDragon

[Fairen]

5 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

I don't think there's anything 'laughably petty' in pointing out that a review of Sunlust which for the most part, can not be called full-on slaughter, basically scored it one out of 5 because it was too hard or whatever. You're free not to have the patience to play slaughter maps or challenge maps but state an opinion that's surface level, and you should expect some vigorous defenses telling you 'that you're wrong.' 

There's something really magical about calling other people's opinions "surface level" when your own assessment of their opinions are just that themselves.

 

OP asked for people who felt a certain way to share why they held that opinion. Other folks whom the topic was never addressed to began to complain about those opinions and the people who held them.

[LadyMistDragon]

18 minutes ago, Fairen said:

There's something really magical about calling other people's opinions "surface level" when your own assessment of their opinions are just that themselves.

 

 

If it weren't for the fact that evidence of said opinions, both in this thread and on Doomworld, are free for all to see, you might be able to turn that around. But in this case, that simply doesn't work.

 

Anyways, it's a forum where the topic has basically been discussed au nauseum and honestly, I feel there are many people who just get tired of seeing the same generalizations stated over and over. That's why Maribo and others are objecting. I'm not bothered by it so much because I know the thread is not also asking "....so that's while you're wrong," but if one enjoys slaughter maps, it definitely gets a bit more tiring to see the sort of thinly-veiled condescension that has shown up at times.

Edited March 24, 2023 by LadyMistDragon

[innerethos]

16 minutes ago, Fairen said:

There's something really magical about calling other people's opinions "surface level" when your own assessment of their opinions are just that themselves.

 

OP asked for people who felt a certain way to share why they held that opinion. Other folks whom the topic was never addressed to began to complain about those opinions and the people who held them.

Just wanted to thank you for slogging through this thread to reiterate how ironic it is that we were asked for our opinions and then told how they were uninformed or wrong.

[reaction]

How fitting that Fairen got fuckin slaughtered in this thread lol

 

31 minutes ago, innerethos said:

Just wanted to thank you for slogging through this thread to reiterate how ironic it is that we were asked for our opinions and then told how they were uninformed or wrong.

 

There is a big difference between someone brushing off your right to have an opinion vs someone disagreeing with your specific claims about something. If you say "I think/feel X is Y" it's very different to outright saying "X is Y". I'm specifically referring to Farien's review of Sunlust here which is definitely relevant to the thread IMO.

Edited March 24, 2023 by reaction

[Ozcar]

I have bad feelings about this thread...


 

[Benjogami]

55 minutes ago, Fairen said:

There's something really magical about calling other people's opinions "surface level" when your own assessment of their opinions are just that themselves.

 

OP asked for people who felt a certain way to share why they held that opinion. Other folks whom the topic was never addressed to began to complain about those opinions and the people who held them.

There were plenty of people in the thread that expressed distaste for slaughter and didn't get the sort of pushback that you're getting. Why do you think that is?

[Maribo]

I don't know how many times I should have to state that my problems with these threads are the sweeping generalizations. Nowhere have I pulled any kind of Wrong Opinion card, nowhere have I posted any kind of "git gud" statement. I don't know what "expecting people to waste time doing something that they don't like to justify having their opinions" means exactly, but I also don't think that asking people to talk about slaughter maps or slaughter fights on any level more specific than "all slaughter" falls remotely close to expecting people to waste time. I also don't think that DSC got remotely close to a personal attack. It's factually untrue that Sunlust's maps are "spent simply taking out your BFG and holding down the fire button", and I don't really know what to say to anyone who genuinely thinks that's true. It's almost like we played a completely different WAD, and maybe talking about some specific examples would be a good idea? Would it really be so hard to say that you think the secret fight in Map07 is a bad BFG fight because you think the space is too claustrophobic to work in? Do you think the openness of Map18 is frustrating to work around due to the way Archviles are prone to roaming around? Do you think the blue skull key fight in Map15 is annoying because of the awkward way the geometry is composed and the way the stairs mess with your momentum? I don't know why we can't just do this instead of positing that slaughter mappers don't respect players, or that the people who make them don't know what "good design" is and just mindlessly place monsters down in the editor, or insisting that they're all the exact same experience.

[ＤΞＬＴΛ]

13 hours ago, DNSKILL5 said:

People don’t like something, other people do, they argue as if it’s going to change anyone’s minds, then they make it more personal, then the thread gets locked, rinse and repeat. It’s getting old. 

 

No truer words have never been spoken...

[Meowgi]

I dislike slaughter maps because I play Doom to indulge in the power fantasy of indiscriminately killing hundreds (not thousands) of demons. I don't play Doom to solve "combat puzzles" or slog through hour-long maps with thousands of the same enemy. If I wanted to do those things, I would play an actual puzzle game or Dynasty Warriors, respectively. I especially don't play Doom to experience a platforming game, which many slaughter mappers seem to like to throw in as an extra "fuck you" to the player (Why would I play Doom to platform anyway? There's other games for that, like Super Mario and Glover). Slaughter gameplay seems to always be a hodgepodge of the most annoying stuff one can put into a Doom map, and then we're supposed to pretend we enjoy it. Basically, slaughter maps are very clearly not made for the general doom audience in mind, and only made for "Doom Gods" and speedrunners, so it's no wonder I dislike them.

 

(I will admit it can be pretty fun to turn on god mode and give yourself max ammo through them though)

[indigotyrian]

It's okay to not like slaughter. It's a specific type of experience in Doom. I don't particularly go for it myself (though I don't mind it terribly). Not liking or not enjoying slaughter doesn't mean you're "less skilled" or, more importantly, lesser of a video game player or a human being. I for one think it's important that Doom mappers make experiences that aren't entirely slaughter or similarly require a very high degree of skill and knowledge of how to play Doom, and I think that a lot of emphasis in the community is placed on the very hard WADs at the expense of experiences that are less intense and focus on delivering in other ways. FWIW I think the "difficulty for difficulty's sake" kind of design to be tedious.

 

I can't help but think what's going on here is a deep-seated sort of insecurity around the concept of being "filtered" by slaughter. A lot of the invective against slaughter is inaccurate and emotional but it mostly comes from a position of knee-jerk reaction against the prominence and popularity of slaughter design. I hesitate to call it "sour grapes" since I think mastering slaughter-style gameplay is possible for anybody who can beat the IWADs, but nonetheless a big portion of what the classic Doom modding space is celebrated for is gated off for people who can't participate and they react accordingly. Nobody wants to feel left out.

 

Ultimately I think the real solution is that more experiences should be made that focus on other interesting aspects of Doom. Cool aesthetics, interesting map layouts and designs, custom experiences through scripting and dehacked, things that don't involve monster counts in four digits. This stuff exists and is out there, and I hope people seek them out and share them.

[TeK (⌐■_■)]

[reaction]

1 hour ago, Meowgi said:

 I don't play Doom to solve "combat puzzles"

 

I'd say all combats are puzzles to be solved, they just vary in size, scope, style and difficulty. It seems to be a select subset or type of person that specifically sets out to "solve" the most difficult maps which often have slaughter elements or straight up are slaughter. Most of the time the 'puzzle' aspect is obfuscated or distracted from by visuals, momentum, atmosphere etc etc.

[Fairen]

5 hours ago, Benjogami said:

There were plenty of people in the thread that expressed distaste for slaughter and didn't get the sort of pushback that you're getting. Why do you think that is?

Because I made the git-gud clique feel like they're not better than everyone else. But you're right, it's entirely my fault the tryhards have been compelled to trawl through my posting history because they can't actually give real objection to my opinions.

 

You folks should just start a thread and let the rest of us know what opinions we're stupid for having and not allowed to have, that would make discussions go much more smoothly. Hell, you guys can pin my review of Sunlust on that thread, and openly tell your little git-gud clique to send me hate PMs over it. The problem clearly isn't the ridiculous hostility towards people who dislike a certain kind of content that makes you feel better than other players, the problem is that you haven't bullied away everyone with a different opinion than you.

 

(And no, I don't need to justify giving a one-star review of an utterly-joyless experience, because that's what opinions are for. Let's see how you folks would react to people combing through your reviews to hatejerk over every Wrong Opinion you have. Wait, that's right, you folks think your opinions aren't merely "opinions".)

 

Again, to reiterate: Thread asked for opinions. People gave their opinions. Tryhards flipped out because those opinions made them feel less special, and now are pissed off that other people aren't obligated to stfu when they tell them they're not allowed to have their opinions.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Fairen

[DNSKILL5]

Can’t we all just get along? I mean, come on. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by DNSKILL5

[Azure_Horror]

18 hours ago, Dopaminecloud said:

I really suggest Fireking Says No Cheating from BTSX e2, that map is an absolute joy, absolutely falls under the slaughter umbrella and I will be personally impressed with your ability to dislike the combat of a game you love if you find tedium even there.

Can you elaborate, why you suggest this map in particular? I didn't have much time to fully study the map, but it does not appear that special in the grand scheme of things. And its type of hectic start can be off-putting. It has lots of high-damage threats, including chaingunners and cybers, and no clear idea, from there it is best to clear the whole mess. This map is not a BFG spam, of course, but it looks like it fits a mold of "kinda stereotypical slaughter", with monsters everywhere, no reliable cover in sight and all the Fluid Dynamics (thanks, @Shepardus!) that this implies.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Azure_Horror

[Dan87]

48 minutes ago, Fairen said:

Again, to reiterate: Thread asked for opinions. People gave their opinions. Tryhards flipped out because those opinions made them feel less special, and now are pissed off that other people aren't obligated to stfu when they tell them they're not allowed to have their opinions.

 

I don't know of any challenge map player who plays them because they want to feel superior to others.

 

The vast majority of the push back I've seen you get in this thread isn't related to your "opinions" on difficulty at all (nor have I seen anyone tell people they can't have opinions). Can you point to any specific posts in the thread where people have "flipped out" over difficulty?

 

The reason you've copped more flak than others is because you've been stating things that are either factually wrong or gross over generalisations, and labeling your opinions as fact. The majority of your replies in this thread have been unnecessarily combative, and despite what you've preached, your tone has been extremely condescending throughout.

[Fairen]

27 minutes ago, Dan87 said:

The vast majority of the push back I've seen you get in this thread isn't related to your "opinions" on difficulty at all (nor have I seen anyone tell people they can't have opinions). Can you point to any specific posts in the thread where people have "flipped out" over difficulty? 

"They must have really stuck to their comfort zone. I don't think it takes a lot of self-analysis to see the logical flaw in 'I have a strong opinion about this thing I refuse to play.'"

"I think the contradiction is staring people in the face. If you're running around in circles holding down the fire key and you have to grind the RNG 20 times until you win, then what you're doing isn't actually a strategy. Good slaughter maps do require strategic thinking, but people aren't doing that because instead they're running in circles holding the fire key. And then they come to threads like this and say that the intended strategy is luck-based, while completely missing that A) they have no idea what the intended strategy is, B) there may not even be one, because the fight is super flexible and lots of things work except for circle-strafing, and C) they haven't actually engaged with anything that makes the map fun for people who think the map is fun. I mean, I'm not here to skill-shame anybody. ... Sometimes it's fun to figure out how to do things. Sometimes I don't want my fun handed to me on a silver platter. Sometimes I do. What's cool is that you can have both."

"Also, it's pretty annoying that, people just don't admit they suck"

"People suggest easy or introductory level slaughter, no one actually plays the suggested slaughter, rinse and repeat."

"What's interesting is you'll never really hear these kind of generalized complaints over simple easy maps that do the same Knee Deep in the Dead stuff we've all seen for decades. ... And the reason to hate it is for the majority of the time not being good at dealing with it, it's frustrating."

"I think one problem is so many people refuse to play on lower difficulty settings. They want to play on UV no matter what, and I think that should change. If you’re short on time and/or if it is too hard, try a lower difficulty setting."

"Every time there’s a slaughtermap thread I ask the haters to post a non-tas max demo to show their hate isn’t about lack of skill. Are you going to be the first person to actually post a demo?"

"My actual point was the comfort-zone, the sanctity of the zen state and the way distorted focus gameplay such as heavy crowd control takes this away from people as being the source of a sour mood."

 

All quotes from this thread.

[dististik]

11 minutes ago, Fairen said:

All quotes from this thread.

 

I'd hardly call these flipping out, but I'll give you the benefit of maybe I'm reading the tone of these differently from you. What I have to say though is it feels awfully ironic that someone being so persistant on the point that everyone is allowed to have their opinions seems so aggressive towards people they personally disagree with. Must be that tone thing again.

[Bridgeburner56]

Been a while since we've seen a slaughter map opinion flame out thread. Been done to death though.