Civvie 11 FINALLY Does TNT: Evilution

[Kinsie]

✈

 

 

[Maximum Matt]

Larry David Doom.  Someone get on that.

[Zulk RS]

I'm honestly kinda surprised Civvie didn't like Mt.Pain. I mean he is playing continuous but still.

[Murdoch]

15 hours ago, Faceman2000 said:

Watching any Civvie video in front of my daughter is probably ill-advised, but this one was an especially poor choice.

 

Oh dear. Awkward.

[Faceman2000]

4 hours ago, Murdoch said:

 

Oh dear. Awkward.

She is far too young to have understood any of it - she’s not even speaking yet - but it still made me very uncomfortable haha!

[Kyka]

2 hours ago, Faceman2000 said:

She is far too young to have understood any of it - she’s not even speaking yet - but it still made me very uncomfortable haha!

 

One can only imagine what her first words are going to be after watching civvie with you. :D

 

I feel she is going to be calling you "Randy" before she calls you "Daddy".

 

God I hope not.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Kyka

[Faceman2000]

50 minutes ago, Kyka said:

 

One can only imagine what her first words are going to be after watching civvie with you. :D

 

I feel she is going to be calling you "Randy" before she calls you "Daddy".

 

God I hope not.

Probably "sewer count"! XD

[LadyMistDragon]

yep "DISASTER AREA," was probably the absolute nadir of the entire megawad due to its sheer cringe and that includes the end of "Metal" and that stupid pool of slime near the beginning of "Habitat."

Edited April 27, 2023 by LadyMistDragon

[Kyka]

58 minutes ago, Faceman2000 said:

Probably "sewer count"! XD

 

Yes! I hope she also does a passable impersonation of that quake monster moan sound when the sewer count number pops up.

[Maximum Matt]

On 4/25/2023 at 11:56 PM, Kwisior said:

Icarus and Eternal Doom (which was started by another team) are considered classics and superior to Evilution.

Yes I was joking about that - I have played Icarus and also consider it way cooler than Evilution.  It would've been awesome to have had that alongside Plutonia instead

5 hours ago, LadyMistDragon said:

yep "DISASTER AREA," was probably the absolute nadir of the entire megawad due to its sheer cringe and that includes the end of "Metal" and that stupid pool of slime near the beginning of "Habitat."

Am I gonna be the only defender of that part? Sure the 'sewer' is boxy and orthogonal, but you have to do the ol' "rush through and try to find the way out before your rad suit runs out" thing, it's not very often you see actual TEXT in and IWAD level, and there's SPIDERWEBS, people!! SPIDERWEBS!!!

Edited April 28, 2023 by Maximum Matt
Steve

[Zulk RS]

I don't hate the "Disaster Area" like one of the parts of Mt. Pain that I don't like is the sewer but I always liked the Disaster area that was at the end of it. I like it.

 

Every single part of Metal and Habitat are worse than the Disaster Area.

[TheCaneOfTheTophat]

The only thing that makes Metal good for me is that awesome flaming skull switch texture. I'd pay to see that skull switch, and Metal's just showing it to me for free.

[Stupid Bunny]

I like the Disaster Area sign, it's quirky and silly and I enjoy that.  Like @Maximum Matt I don't even mind the sewer bit, when by all rights I should.  Those janky spiderwebs are awesome I only wish there were some arachnotrons around to have spun them

 

EDIT: And sure enough he likes the last remaining Casali map

 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Stupid Bunny

[Faceman2000]

11 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

Am I gonna be the only defender of that part? Sure the 'sewer' is boxy and orthogonal, but you have to do the ol' "rush through and try to find the way out before your rad suit runs out" thing

I quite enjoy this section for that reason - combined with the midi, being able to just sprint wildly adds to the adrenaline of that level of me.

[Zulk RS]

3 hours ago, Stupid Bunny said:

EDIT: And sure enough he likes the last remaining Casali map

 

 

At this point, watching the Shorts felt less like a review and more like staring into a mirror.

 

I don't really know if this is real or it's just a feeling I am having but watching the video series made me think that TNT is actually way more different than Plutonia and not just in the difficulty and level design. I mean it feels like TNT and Plutonia are two different schools of Doom Mapping. I got this feeling too when I played Icarus, where it felt like the very thought process of how a Megawad and the maps should be designed was completely different from Plutonia.

 

Now I do not like Plutonia. I like TNT. Watching Civvie rip into TNT felt like watching the opposite of my feeling towards Plutonia. I dislike Plutonia for it not being TNT (to grossly simplify). Civvie hates TNT because it isn't Plutonia. The casali maps of TNT have a more Plutonia flavor to it and he likes it because it's more "Plutonia".  That's why it felt like staring into a mirror to me. Then again maybe I'm completely off my rocker and it's all my imagination and I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

P.S: I actually didn't like Heck that much. I mean I don't dislike that map. It's pretty cool. I just don't like it as much as a few of the other TNT maps.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Zulk RS

[Stupid Bunny]

Heck wasn’t one I ever played much. I can’t say I have strong feelings about it, I probably like it better than River Styx but much less than Mt. Pain which is one of my favorite iwad maps.

 

As ever, I get why he and so many others are bored by TNT and unimpressed by it’s often improvised feel as compared to the much more polished and refined combat scenarios in Plutonia. For my part I’ve always loved how experimental and creative a lot of TNT feels, whether the ideas are completely successful or not. Plutonia is great, I think, but it’s also a bit too mechanical sometimes and the maps don’t really put me into a world or place or reality the way TNT can, even if TNT’s reality is warped and surreal sometimes. Administration Center is indeed a long and weirdly laid out map but I’ve never forgotten the experience of playing it or coming suddenly to that huge open area with the strangely shaped building for the first time. There was a sense of adventure to the O’Brien maps and to many of the others too, and even if the combat was slow and the custom textures jank as shit it was a formative experience for me as Doom is concerned.  People malign Dead Zone for having a confusing nonsense layout to the central building, but frankly I find that much more interesting many times than a "map" map where everything is right where it needs to be, everything runs like clockwork and nothing unnecessary is in the way.  It's the same reason I like finding secrets that have no material gameplay value.

[Zulk RS]

Same. I feel like TNT and Icarus both went for a more "Adventure" and environmental feel. It wasn't an arena. It was a bizarre scenario where you're fighting demons. I felt similarly (but to a lesser extent) when I played Ancient Aliens. 

[Firedust]

Tbf I really enjoy Civvie constantly meme on TNT and Quake 2 in his videos xD

[TheCaneOfTheTophat]

3 hours ago, Zulk RS said:

Same. I feel like TNT and Icarus both went for a more "Adventure" and environmental feel. It wasn't an arena. It was a bizarre scenario where you're fighting demons. I felt similarly (but to a lesser extent) when I played Ancient Aliens. 

One point that fortifies this: the textures. Plutonia had it's bricks, which look cool but they aren't really that different from the standard Doom textures, some mossy lookin' textures, and that weird looking "MC" texture that changes from green to brown. Simple, abstract, and universal, but nothing really interesting or anything that gives Plutonia's maps any sense of location.

What does TNT have? Cobwebs, saws, reels, animated computers, sandstone, Egyptian murals, that awesome flaming switch, tyres, metal fences, windows, mid-texture cavern openings: mostly gimmicky textures with very little use cases, but they all build on the charm of TNT greatly. And then you have just beautiful looking textures like the night sky with the nebulae. Simply put: TNT's textures are delightful.

[Maximum Matt]

5 hours ago, TheCaneOfTheTophat said:

What does TNT have? Cobwebs, saws, reels, animated computers, sandstone, Egyptian murals, that awesome flaming switch, tyres, metal fences, windows, mid-texture cavern openings

Don't forget 'ROMERO' written in goddamn blood 

[Breezy]

Because of this video series Civvie made, I’m feeling like putting these levels on a tier list.

 

Spoiler

S - Pharaoh, Caribbean, Heck, Wormhole

A - Steel Works, Deepest Reaches, Storage Facility, Shipping/Respawning, Lunar Mining Project, Hanger, System Control

B - Mount Pain, Central Processing, Human BBQ, Power Control, Ballistyx, River Styx, Open Season, Stronghold, Quarry, Dead Zone, Processing Area, Mill, Barons Den, Last Call

C - Crater, Nukage Processing, Prison, Redemption, Habitat

D - Metal, Administration Center

 

[Maximum Matt]

Yes.  River Styx is quite a good one. 

[ReaperAA]

22 hours ago, Stupid Bunny said:

For my part I’ve always loved how experimental and creative a lot of TNT feels, whether the ideas are completely successful or not. Plutonia is great, I think, but it’s also a bit too mechanical sometimes and the maps don’t really put me into a world or place or reality the way TNT can, even if TNT’s reality is warped and surreal sometimes.

 

To be fair, I find Plutonia very experimental and creative too. Although in Plutonia's case, the creativeness is not focused around the environments design or aesthetics, but rather the enemy encounters. The Chaingunner + hidden resurrector archvile combo as seen in Map10, the teleporting barons on Map20, the circular arena with death pit at the end of Map09, the archvile maze of Map11 based on a dream etc.

 

Although with that said, the one area where TNT vastly excels over Plutonia is being a sense of adventure. Some TNT maps have the doomcute stuff in them to do so, but even the maps that don't generally add to the adventure feel. I am not the biggest fan of Drake O Brian's maps and I absolutely loathe Map21, but with that said, his maps in particular feel the most TNT-ish of all TNT maps. TNT wouldn't be same without his maps.

 

What lets down TNT is the general amateurishness of the level design at certain points. If TNT had same polish as Plutonia, I likely would have preferred it over Plutonia. In fact, while I take Plutonia over TNT, I actually prefer TNT's sequels (Revilution and Devilution) over Plutonia's sequels (PL2 and PRCP) because TNT's sequels actually fixed the bad points of TNT and are polished wads while also offer a nice sense of adventure, while Plutonia's sequels don't do much except being bigger/badder versions of Plutonia for most part.

[Zulk RS]

I agree. Plutonia went in with enemy encounters in mind and TNT went with environment and adventure in mind. I prefer the latter.

 

I disagree with the sequels though. I haven't played Devilution so no comment on that but with Revilution, it felt to me personally more like a TNT + Plutonia Fusion. I feel like Icarus is closer to TNT sequel in spirit than Revilution. I'm not saying Revilution is bad. It's a great wad with great mapping talent on display. But outside of maybe one or two maps, it felt to me personally, like TNT: Plutonia Edition. Maybe that's just me.

 

I have wondered this in the past but Civvie's videos make me wonder again. If TNT had been the more popular of the two Final Doom wads, what would the Doom mapping scene look like today?

[TheCaneOfTheTophat]

1 hour ago, Zulk RS said:

I have wondered this in the past but Civvie's videos make me wonder again. If TNT had been the more popular of the two Final Doom wads, what would the Doom mapping scene look like today?

Depending on how TNT would've gotten more popular than Plutonia. If it was just that they kept their promise on not making it a commercial release, probably nothing would've changed. If it were more polished and professional, however... Then yeah, the mapping scene would have probably much more different than what we have currently.

[Maximum Matt]

11 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

I am not the biggest fan of Drake O Brian's maps and I absolutely loathe Map21, but with that said, his maps in particular feel the most TNT-ish of all TNT maps.

Probably because they are the biggest maps in the whole WAD so there's the most TNT shenanigans up in there.  

God bless Drake. 

[Breezy]

1 hour ago, Maximum Matt said:

Probably because they are the biggest maps in the whole WAD so there's the most TNT shenanigans up in there.  

God bless Drake. 

Drake the type of dude to place Central Processing and Administration Center together in a WAD

[Maximum Matt]

LOL

And he the type to insist that they go back to back in the mapset for maximum impact

[ReaperAA]

12 hours ago, Zulk RS said:

it felt to me personally more like a TNT + Plutonia Fusion.

 

Probably exactly why I like Revilution :p. It took the strengths of TNT and combined it with Plutonia's more thoughtful combat (and not just have a half dozen zero threat enemies in a giant room like some TNT maps do).

[Maximum Matt]

WHOOP WHOOOOOOP!!!!!