Why I will no longer tag my secrets, and You Shouldn't Either: An Essay

[stewboy]

No idea which forum this belonged in, I just put it here by default.

 

I've been thinking about this topic for years, but I was inspired to make this post after Decino's stream where at one point he spends over an hour on map31 of Ancient Aliens. I would estimate probably at least 20 minutes of that was spent hunting for every last secret (and every last item pickup, but that's a topic for another day). Now, I do understand how he (or anyone) would hate that, and I can't help but feel that a lot of the negative comments about the map on Decino's video would have been far milder (though not completely gone) had he spent less time on the map, forcing them to watch him hump every last computer terminal.

But of course, I've also seen this complaint elsewhere. Quote from mtpain27: 'There are 13 secrets, most of which I don't need and really don't enjoy finding.' Quote from a youtube video I remember seeing once but can't find now: 'Fuck. This. Map.' (That person was also 100%'ing it, IIRC.) Most of the positive responses to the map I've seen were in the DW megawad club thread on it - and there's one thing that most of these responses had in common: They didn't insist on going for all of the secrets! It seems that while you won't necessarily enjoy a given map by playing it 'normally', you almost definitely won't enjoy it if you feel like you're just running down a list of boxes to tick off - especially if there's a lot of them.

Why 13 secrets, anyway? I'll be the first to admit I'm absolutely an exploration kind of guy, and I mean in real life too. I'm never satisfied seeing a door without knowing what's behind it, or seeing a balcony without knowing how to get up to it. Talk to my friends and you'll hear stories about me accidentally removing a light bulb from a nightclub, finding the secret golf ball storage at minigolf, hiding in the cupboard at parties, or getting kicked out of the RCM in London after walking in off the street past security and getting caught playing the percussion there. I like exploring things and investigating things and I tend to assume that everyone else likes it too. That's why 13 secrets!

Where does that leave the people who don't love exploring as much as me? This is where the problem arises. Wanting to 'complete' something, and wanting to see a number go up, are instincts most people have; and as the more ethically challenged game designers know, players will force themselves through almost any amount of tedious gameplay, monetary loss, or even actual physical suffering if it means they can watch a little firework display as a number goes up. The Doom completionists aren't hunting secrets because they love exploring, they're hunting secrets out of obligation. And that's never fun.

What's more, I do kind of empathise. Here's a personal anecdote: I don't get a huge amount of time to play games these days (people keep asking me to write music for some reason...), but one game that I loved recently and that kept my attention all the way through was Amid Evil. You know what made me feel good in that game? Finding a secret through exploration. You know what didn't make me feel good? Finishing a level and being told I didn't find all the secrets. I'm not a completionist by any means and yet I still felt a slight sense of failure - and the moment I started to consciously hunt secrets to avoid that failure, I lost that pure joy of exploration that I treasure so much in my day to day life.

So here's my proposition: Don't mark your secrets... but do still put the secrets in!

This immediately eliminates the anxiety caused by getting 'less than 100%' of something. Aside from the very extreme completionists (who I am a bit conerned about and would love to have a deep conversation with in a pub sometime over a pint or three), I'm willing to wager that even if someone knows for sure that they haven't seen everything there is to see, they'll still feel like they've achieved something just by beating the map, as long as they're not presented with definitive evidence of their 'failure'. After all, there's only so much time that each of us has on this earth to enjoy life, but which would you prefer: that on your deathbed, you get to reflect on your own unique memories? Or that on your deathbed, a giant number flashes up in front of you telling you that you only experienced 2% of life?

Would this lack of secret marking make them less rewarding to find? Well, the topic of what makes a good secret comes up every now and then, and there's plenty of ideas. To summarise: At its most basic, a secret can give you useful supplies. Perhaps a unique item or weapon. But it can also reward you by giving you a unique experience. A fun extra fight. A whole extra map. Perhaps you solved a very interesting puzzle in order to find it. Or perhaps none of these, and the reward is simply the exploration itself - getting to see more of the map, or to see it from a new perspective. You know what doesn't seem to get mentioned in these threads? 'The thing that makes a secret fun is that you get to see a number go up at the end of the level.'

Will people know the secrets are there if they don't get explicitly told? Well, in many cases, no. They will miss out on small parts of every map simply because they didn't know about them. But there are three ways someone can know to be on the lookout for secrets: firstly, they find one by accident; secondly, they can literally see an area or item they ought to be able to get to, but can't; and thirdly, that the map designer has already used the first two methods to instill in the player the idea that there's interesting stuff to be found. In other words, they should look for secrets just because 'well, it seems like something the map designer would have put in'. In fact, this aspect can actually increase the joy of finding a secret, because the player feels like they've found something that very few other people might have found. Perhaps they get to feel like they 'broke the rules' of the map. I don't know about you but for me, finding things out through breaking the rules sounds a lot more fun than finding things out through following a pre-determined checklist.

Will we miss the 'A secret is revealed!' message? Do we need the firework display every time we achieve something? Well... maybe, and maybe. After all, games know they have to pick at the reward centre of the brain. There's loads of analyses out there that go into detail about this - the right sound for a gun, a physics-inaccurate screen shake when something blows up, a satisfying little music jingle when we finish a puzzle or beat a level. A little 'Well done!' goes a long way. But all that this means is that we'll have to design our secrets more thoughtfully, to make sure they're actually worth finding. And that will involve designing our levels more thoughtfully. I think that can only be a good thing.

And even with the above issue - an obvious solution would be to have the player be notified of a secret, but to then not be shown the count at the end. That way, even if the player knows that they missed a secret, they wouldn't be reminded of it, and it wouldn't feel as though they weren't playing the game properly. Now I know there'll be ways to achieve this in advanced ports, but I don't know if there's ways to do this in the more 'oldschool' ports. And even without the end tally screen, you might still be able to view the count in other ways - and really dedicated completionists can always open up the map in an editor and count them manually. Perhaps the best solution really is to just get rid of the 'secret' tag altogether. But you know what? I think this particular sacrifice is worth making. If the choice is between having secrets feel just slightly less fun to find, or risking having them actually detract from the entire experience of the map, I think it's obvious which way we should go.

 

 

Postscript: Yes, I started writing this post as a partial defence of a 7-year old map of mine, but I'm aware there's plenty about the map to criticise outside of 'I didn't enjoy hunting for 13 secrets even though nobody was forcing me to except myself'. It's no misunderstood masterpiece, it's a map in a wildly different style to the rest of the wad, less visually interesting, and I definitely didn't put in as much effort as the other mappers did (though to be fair, it would have been very hard for me to!). But I also do still like the map, so there. This topic isn't really about the map anyway - I do genuinely think that the concept of secrets and completionism is worth analysing.

Incidentally, there's two secret stashes in AA map31 that are unmarked. They're nothing game breaking, but if you managed to find them, congratulations - you've found areas that even the completionists might not have found. I regret not making all the secrets like that.

Edited April 3, 2023 by stewboy

[MTrop]

I respectfully disagree.

 

Completionists are already on-board with being masochists - they will still try to turn over every stone regardless of the amount of stones designated as the right ones to overturn. The labelling of the areas off the beaten path as "special" will not deter this type of gameplay, and its omission will mislead those who believe that they have seen everything there is to offer in a map.

There is also no proper way to play a map, and how you feel about how you play a map is just that - your own personal takeaway from that experience. I empathize in not having the time to obsessively secret-hunt, but at the end of the day, those secrets are just gonna hide some helpful baubles, and rarely anything worthy of FOMO, so I don't really mind when a get a secret rate below 100%.

 

Decino's habits aside - if he includes his exhaustive hunt in every blind playthrough, it isn't because the map is wrong or his method of play is wrong, it's because he's bad at entertaining an audience. And if somebody hates a map because they can't find everything in it, that's on them for making the optional not optional.

 

On the topic of not marking secrets, we made 3 "ultra-secrets" in The Adventures of Square Episode 2, which use a special item not flagged as an item, so it's entirely invisible from stats. And they are really hard to find, too. In revealing this, how many people who played it now feel like they missed out? Is it now worse that, as of this writing, they aren't even documented on the Doom Wiki?

 

At the end of the day, expectation is at the heart of this conundrum, on both the finder and the placer. Secrets are just that - secrets. If you feel left out because you didn't find them all, that's on you, but to leave them unmarked does a disservice to those that like the hunt.

[Fiber Wire]

I’ve never been one to care about 100% secrets, and even less about 100% items. I do try to get 100% kills if possible, but the main goal for me has always been to reach the exit alive. If I get all 100%s, cool, if not, oh well. Life goes on. 

[IncompA]

1 hour ago, stewboy said:

So here's my proposition: Don't mark your secrets... but do still put the secrets in!

This immediately eliminates the anxiety caused by getting 'less than 100%' of something.

You write this like everyone who plays WADs with secrets thinks this way, and the truth is that this isn't how it works.

 

Everyone thinks separately from one another. Some people don't mind not getting 100%. Some people do. The issue is is that this just isn't a good idea. The former will think your WAD has less content then meets the eye, and the latter will obviously be dissatisfied with not being able to find any marked secrets, and by extension, get 100% on the end tally.

 

Using Decino as an example as to why things should be changed isn't a good example, mainly due to the fact that he just isn't a good entertainer. Entertainment isn't the intention, in fact, the intention is to provide a walkthrough of the map he's covering. Why should it matter if it takes him an hour (or more!) to complete a map when you're not even understanding the purpose of his videos and streams to begin with?

 

Your post is filled with bad points. Tally counter when you're dying IRL? What point are you actually trying to make? No one thinks this way.

Do you seriously want people to open the fucking WAD in a map editor? People are going to be in the map editor for 30 minutes, looking for UNMARKED SECRETS, mind you. I thought your idea was to "reduce anxiety", not increase frustration.

 

You could have just said "marked secret bad, frustration good". This summarises your post.

Edited April 3, 2023 by EliDoesStuff
major rewrite

[dasho]

1 hour ago, stewboy said:

And even without the end tally screen, you might still be able to view the count in other ways - and really dedicated completionists can always open up the map in an editor and count them manually.

 

Yes, this will reduce frustration.

[BGreener]

I was wondering why this post of yours seemed so familiar, @stewboy. @skillsaw had some very similar concerns in the Unpopular Doom Opinions thread regarding Ancient Aliens as well, right about here at "Trigger/Peeve #2" and in particular how it can pressure mappers. It spawned a pretty cool discussion back then, as well - worth checking out! (edit: holy crap, speaking of...!)

 

Spoiler

Loved Grey Dwarf by the way, felt like like a fun trip through a derelict craft.

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by BGreener
timin'!

[skillsaw]

I posted a similar rant a while ago in the unpopular opinions thread (https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2540390), though it was more in response to the tendency for players to expect to be able to always blind UV-max maps, and lash out when it turns out that it's possible to be locked out of content. I, for one, have no problem missing stuff and am instead happy to find secrets whenever I am lucky enough to do so.

 

Checking things off a to-do list isn't something I enjoy in games, and so I avoid games that encourage compulsively checking things off a list. Having seen plenty of streamers and Doomtubers getting frustrated while humping every computer panel and mistextured wall in a map to reveal one last secret, anecdotally it's pretty clear that many of them often don't enjoy it either, but compulsively do it out of obligation or expectation. As MTrop says, that's their problem, not yours.

 

One last thing: the original release of Doom did not provide in-map percentages for kills and secrets (or items, but [almost] no one cares about item percent). Counters on the automap and/or status bar were added as a quality of life feature to source ports by community developers. Orignally, the player had to complete a map to see how what percentage they found -- in light of that, I really believe they were intended to add replay value, or to show off your mastery of the game, not just to be something you check off a list on your first playthrough.

 

P.S. FWIW, I'm a fan of Grey Dwarf!

[Andrea Rovenski]

aa31 is awesome. it's a SECRET LEVEL, so expecting it to cater to everyone's needs is even more silly on top of it. 

 

100%ing should be for people who already know the map or have already beaten it. This notion of needing to cater to someone who wants to 100% a map in one try is absurd. Just my take :)

Edited April 3, 2023 by Andrea Rovenski

[baja blast rd.]

"I can't help but feel that a lot of the negative comments about the map on Decino's video would have been far milder (though not completely gone) had he spent less time on the map" 

 

About this specifically: people judging a map primarily (or exclusively!) by how fun it is to watch a YouTuber play it is an unfortunate form of idiocy, and a growing one -- but one I think you just have to tune out as noise. Another way to put it is that these comments are not about the map. They are about the playthrough and basically saying Decino's playthrough was boring and frustrating. Decino ""fans"" smh not very loyal. :P

[Murdoch]

10 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

aa31 is awesome. it's a SECRET LEVEL, so expecting it to cater to everyone's needs is even more silly on top of it. 

 

100%ing should be for people who already know the map or have already beaten it. This notion of needing to cater to someone who wants to 100% a map in one try is absurd. Just my take :)

 

I concur with Andrea. It sounds to me like this topic is being over-analysed. Let designers design how they will, and people play how they will. Because...

 

1 hour ago, MTrop said:

Completionists are already on-board with being masochists

 

100% this.

 

If anything, you would likely have the opposite effect if you adopted this design philosophy. I could imagine a completionist getting pissed because without the secret tags, they have no way of knowing if they truly found everything.

 

42 minutes ago, EliDoesStuff said:

You write this like everyone who plays WADs with secrets thinks this way, and the truth is that this isn't how it works.

Indeed; I don't think I have ever given a damn if I didn't 100% one of the stats in the near 30 years I have played this game.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Murdoch

[Grain of Salt]

"completionists are already on-board with being masochists"

 

No they aren't??? Have you ever watched anyone stream doom, ever???

[StarTanned]

I'm a newbie mapper so I'm certainly doing it wrong, but FWIW in my first released map I've experimented with a hybrid approach including tagged and untagged secrets, so players will generally find something in almost every interesting nook and cranny, even if they don't find a "true" (tagged) secret. That way maxers still have a 100% to shoot for, but everyone gets some kind of reward if they go out of their way a bit.

 

I'm also borderline OCD about texture usage and alignment, which will hopefully make the misaligned/weird ones stand out enough for players to spot them without wall-humping much they wouldn't instinctively try anyway. And just in case, I've set a personal rule that all of the tagged ones at least should be on the computer area map or show their rewards off in plain sight before the real hunt begins (and the map itself is meant to be relatively easy to find).

 

That way folks will probably find almost everything just by looking into interesting corners or humping computer panels or other weird walls, and if they missed anything it should almost certainly be on the map, and for those who dislike looking on the map, will still be behind some misaligned or weird texture. Maybe this might even make it more fun for folks watching the stream too, as they will probably more easily see that misaligned wall the streamer walked right by...

 

Edit: I should mention that to me a secret is something worth finding, not just a tiny closet with no eye-candy and an armor bonus, because there's nothing worse than wall-humping for 5 minutes only to realize it was an obvious computer terminal you missed, and the secret wasn't even worth finding.

Edited April 3, 2023 by StarTanned

[IncompA]

2 minutes ago, Grain of Salt said:

"completionists are already on-board with being masochists"

 

No they aren't??? Have you ever watched anyone stream doom, ever???

You clearly didn't read the rest of their post.

[Deadwing]

IMO, there will always be someone that will (very) harshly complain about a decision you have taken in anything you've worked. :P

Secrets are something that can have multiple ways of approaching, and simply not marking them, imo, is a very valid one and interesting design-wise. More recently I've been thinking of going a bit in the opposite way and maybe make secrets more accessible so players are encouraged to pay more attention at their surroudings and look after them. It's kind of a different solution to the same problem, tbh, but both are funs way of approaching level design challenges. But for very obscure secrets it might indeed be better to mark them off, which is what I've done in some of the Ozonia maps.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Deadwing

[IncompA]

Just now, Deadwing said:

IMO, there will always be someone that will (very) harshly complain about a decision you have taken in anything you've worked. :P

Damn straight.

[Fiber Wire]

Maybe just put all the key cards in secret areas, and most of the enemies and items too. The rest of the level doesn’t matter anyways. Nobody wants to walk around corridors and rooms, opening doors, and dealing with demons. Wall humping is what Doom is all about at its core.

[Horus]

Whatever design decision you make, there will be people out there who don't like it (and conversely, people who do like it).

 

As others have said, your proposal of not tagging secrets is trying to solve something that's not your fault. If the player is getting frustrated trying to 100% the map, that's on them, not you.

 

Having said that, using untagged secrets is a perfectly valid design decision. But you should include them because you actually want to, not to placate 100% players.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Horus

[IncompA]

5 minutes ago, Fiber Wire said:

Maybe just put all the key cards in secret areas, and most of the enemies and items too. The rest of the level doesn’t matter anyways. Nobody wants to walk around corridors and rooms, opening doors, and dealing with demons. Wall humping is what Doom is all about at its core.

Gave me a good laugh.

[Fiber Wire]

Maybe it’s an age thing but I remember when Doom never told you if you found a secret or not, and much older user maps where anything went, well… you really sometimes could not tell what was truly a secret and what was just tagged as a secret for whatever reason. That’s what made the intermission screen reveal so much fun was to see just how well you actually did, without the game giving you the juicy details while playing. Maybe that’s why I don’t care about getting all 100%s in the end. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Fiber Wire

[Maribo]

Some food for thought, a small collection of maps with untagged secrets of varying usefulness:

 

Sunlust

Spoiler

 

First image: Hidden walrus in Map07. Locating it or having knowledge of where it is also lets you safely defuse an otherwise devious cave trap.

Second image: Spare megaspheres in Map14. Very useful

 

Wormwood: Expanded Universe

Spoiler

Both are from Map04 and found at the very edges of the map.

First Image: A regular shotgun, functionally useless by the point you reach it.

Second image: A spare megasphere. Requires SR50 to reach, very useful going into the final fight of the map.

 

Wormwood IV - The Final Chapter

Spoiler

From Map07. Sector art only visible by acquiring a time-sensitive key and opening the door it goes to. No other reward.

 

[heliumlamb]

how many of us are willing go the extra mile (full sicko, king's field mode) and respectfully refuse to telegraph them as well!

[LadyMistDragon]

Secrets will always be secrets no matter what. Everyone has different preferences and design tendencies and that wasn't even the hugest problem with Grey Dwarf (probably the best in fact!). Getting rid of any core mechanic or just a tag in this case is really just a case of "but whyyyyyy

[Doomy__Doom]

Terrible secret sector mechanic idea that's totally lying as a prototype on my drive - secret sectors are unmissable progression (i.e. certain doorframes), but they cease being taggable via sector effect removal if the player spends too much time getting there :)

 

But yeah, you cannot appeal to the entire spectrum of arbitrary enjoyment lines.

[mrthejoshmon]

Your point does have merit but I will not be following your suggestion, making things more accessible does have its benefits...

 

However personally, I find it absurd to disregard an established core mechanic, of which can be found in nearly every Doom wad released, because someone cannot simply let go of a 100% stat.

 

The way I see it is that secrets are rewards to assist players who are vigilant and notice various hints left for them, the secret tally itself is a small pat on the back for finding them (and a way of marking them separately from the map), but ultimately they're completely optional.

 

Personally I'm not going to change how I implement secrets because someone somewhere might be upset they can't find it and make number go big. I think that it is an absurd suggestion and quite frankly that's a them problem, all in all it is just a bit weird.

 

Just make what you want, there is such a thing as worthless feedback and this sounds like it to me.

Edited April 3, 2023 by mrthejoshmon

[Firedust]

I hate missing stuff, so ig I do what most people on these forums gunning for 100% do:

 

1) Try to find everything myself

 

2) If that takes too long, use the automap cheat in zdoom/gzdoom

 

3) If even that doesn't help, I just look stuff up in the editor

[taviow]

Hey @stewboy, wanted to comment since I love Map 31, as a huge fan of puzzley games like Myst plus 90's dungeon crawlers and stuff like that, it's obvious that the map would appeal to me.

 

That said, it obviously doesn't appeal to everyone and I think that's just fine.

 

I think it's very important that you don't change your entire mapping style or personal philosophy just because someone didn't like a map.

 

That's the same thing as dobu gabu maru not making puzzles anymore, or making all puzzles easy because someone hated a puzzle. Or insane gazebo not making slaughter maps anymore because someone criticized Sunder. It would be unthinkable, and I find it unthinkable that you would feel forced to change your outlook because decino had a bad experience with your map.

 

I think that, as long as you have a target audience that *does* enjoy the map, and enjoys your work in general, then you should keep at it like you have been. I personally wouldn't want Grey Dwarf to be any other way. I'm a fan of that map. There's a time to listen to criticism and a time to stand your ground. I think it's time for the latter here now, but that's just me. I hope you keep at it.

[indigotyrian]

I can't help but be reminded of that YouTube video essayist guy who played Super Mario Odyssey to completion, getting a 100% save file, twice in a row for his channel, which naturally made him grow to hate the fuckin game.

 

To a degree I empathize with the completionist frustration. Slamming your dick in the proverbial car door trying to 100% a map can suck. It can totally kill the vibe. But -- and I think this is pretty important -- that's not the fault of the mapper. The desire to go in blind and 100% a map is absolutely a gameplay restriction placed on the player,. Setting up a collection of secrets and offering up a percentage is no more demanding of the player to find every nook and cranny than the "par time" on the intermission demanding that the player speedrun the map.

 

While we're talking about MtPain27 let's talk about his AUGUR;ZENITH review. Specifically when he talks about MAP04: Meat Mincer.

 

 

I think it's pretty self-evident that this is not meant to be played like a standard Doom map. You're not meant to play this to 100% kills, 100% secrets, 100% items on a pistol start in Ultra-Violence. This is designed to be a Sonic Adventure map; you go Real Fast and blast what's in your way and make a mad dash to the exit. The lack of detailing is fine and even good here; you're moving too quickly to notice Doomcute or ornate sectorwork. The different paths with different enemies that become a huge drag on a 100% run are just a fun little decoration when this map's played properly. Playing Meat Mincer the way you're meant to play it is a short and exciting little trip between MAP03 and MAP05.

 

MtPain27 didn't play it the intended way. He played it his way: pistol start, 100%, Ultra-Violence, twice over. He fuckin' hated it. Now I ask you: Is that Joe-Ilya's fault, or MtPain27's?

 

I'll tell you right now that my reaction to getting a sub-100% Secrets in the intermission isn't disappointment, it's intrigue. That tells me there's more map for me to find! I love that shit. I love playing maps over and over again because they're fun! Even if I 100% them they're still exciting to play!

 

You can't control how people are going to play your map. As game designers this is one of the most exciting things about our chosen medium. We need to remember, however, that not only can you not control this, you're also not responsible for it.

[RonnieJamesDiner]

Tangentially related, but:

 

If y'all really want to help the 100 percenters have a more consistently enjoyable experience with your maps, cease and desist your use of Sniper Imps. Those Imps (and it really is almost always Imps) perched in high places at distances that make autoaim awkward, and shotgun damage unreliable, so you gotta tap... tap... tap... tap... your chaingun, cause you got no rockets or plasma, and your will to live is fading. The map is otherwise clearable with 100% kills by simply just playing the thing, but nope, there's all these lofty loiterers who (let's be honest) provide approximately zero threat or pressure, just chillin', laughin' at ya from their balconies, and cliff edges, and literal boxes cut into the wall for no reason. Stop it.  

[Shepardus]

I think the best solution is to mark every sector as a secret so completionists can run around painting their automap like it's a game of Splatoon.

[ReaperAA]

Personally speaking, I am not a big fan of AA map31. Though in my case, it has nothing to do with secrets (i think I only bothered to find 8-ish secrets on the map) and more to do with its labyrinth, almost Bungie's Marathon 1 like level design, which I wasn't fan of when I last tried that game.

 

Speaking of which @stewboy, is the map inspired from Marathon. Seems like it to me.l