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Why I will no longer tag my secrets, and You Shouldn't Either: An Essay


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I’ve never been one to care about 100% secrets, and even less about 100% items. I do try to get 100% kills if possible, but the main goal for me has always been to reach the exit alive. If I get all 100%s, cool, if not, oh well. Life goes on. 

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1 hour ago, stewboy said:

So here's my proposition: Don't mark your secrets... but do still put the secrets in!


This immediately eliminates the anxiety caused by getting 'less than 100%' of something.

You write this like everyone who plays WADs with secrets thinks this way, and the truth is that this isn't how it works.

 

Everyone thinks separately from one another. Some people don't mind not getting 100%. Some people do. The issue is is that this just isn't a good idea. The former will think your WAD has less content then meets the eye, and the latter will obviously be dissatisfied with not being able to find any marked secrets, and by extension, get 100% on the end tally.

 

Using Decino as an example as to why things should be changed isn't a good example, mainly due to the fact that he just isn't a good entertainer. Entertainment isn't the intention, in fact, the intention is to provide a walkthrough of the map he's covering. Why should it matter if it takes him an hour (or more!) to complete a map when you're not even understanding the purpose of his videos and streams to begin with?

 

Your post is filled with bad points. Tally counter when you're dying IRL? What point are you actually trying to make? No one thinks this way.

Do you seriously want people to open the fucking WAD in a map editor? People are going to be in the map editor for 30 minutes, looking for UNMARKED SECRETS, mind you. I thought your idea was to "reduce anxiety", not increase frustration.

 

You could have just said "marked secret bad, frustration good". This summarises your post.

Edited by EliDoesStuff
major rewrite

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1 hour ago, stewboy said:

And even without the end tally screen, you might still be able to view the count in other ways - and really dedicated completionists can always open up the map in an editor and count them manually.

 

Yes, this will reduce frustration.

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I was wondering why this post of yours seemed so familiar, @stewboy. @skillsaw had some very similar concerns in the Unpopular Doom Opinions thread regarding Ancient Aliens as well, right about here at "Trigger/Peeve #2" and in particular how it can pressure mappers. It spawned a pretty cool discussion back then, as well - worth checking out! (edit: holy crap, speaking of...!)

 

Spoiler

Loved Grey Dwarf by the way, felt like like a fun trip through a derelict craft.

 

Edited by BGreener
timin'!

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10 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

aa31 is awesome. it's a SECRET LEVEL, so expecting it to cater to everyone's needs is even more silly on top of it. 

 

100%ing should be for people who already know the map or have already beaten it. This notion of needing to cater to someone who wants to 100% a map in one try is absurd. Just my take :)

 

I concur with Andrea. It sounds to me like this topic is being over-analysed. Let designers design how they will, and people play how they will. Because...

 

1 hour ago, MTrop said:

Completionists are already on-board with being masochists

 

100% this.

 

If anything, you would likely have the opposite effect if you adopted this design philosophy. I could imagine a completionist getting pissed because without the secret tags, they have no way of knowing if they truly found everything.

 

42 minutes ago, EliDoesStuff said:

You write this like everyone who plays WADs with secrets thinks this way, and the truth is that this isn't how it works.

Indeed; I don't think I have ever given a damn if I didn't 100% one of the stats in the near 30 years I have played this game.

Edited by Murdoch

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I'm a newbie mapper so I'm certainly doing it wrong, but FWIW in my first released map I've experimented with a hybrid approach including tagged and untagged secrets, so players will generally find something in almost every interesting nook and cranny, even if they don't find a "true" (tagged) secret. That way maxers still have a 100% to shoot for, but everyone gets some kind of reward if they go out of their way a bit.

 

I'm also borderline OCD about texture usage and alignment, which will hopefully make the misaligned/weird ones stand out enough for players to spot them without wall-humping much they wouldn't instinctively try anyway. And just in case, I've set a personal rule that all of the tagged ones at least should be on the computer area map or show their rewards off in plain sight before the real hunt begins (and the map itself is meant to be relatively easy to find).

 

That way folks will probably find almost everything just by looking into interesting corners or humping computer panels or other weird walls, and if they missed anything it should almost certainly be on the map, and for those who dislike looking on the map, will still be behind some misaligned or weird texture. Maybe this might even make it more fun for folks watching the stream too, as they will probably more easily see that misaligned wall the streamer walked right by...

 

Edit: I should mention that to me a secret is something worth finding, not just a tiny closet with no eye-candy and an armor bonus, because there's nothing worse than wall-humping for 5 minutes only to realize it was an obvious computer terminal you missed, and the secret wasn't even worth finding.

Edited by StarTanned

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2 minutes ago, Grain of Salt said:

"completionists are already on-board with being masochists"

 

No they aren't??? Have you ever watched anyone stream doom, ever???

You clearly didn't read the rest of their post.

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Just now, Deadwing said:

IMO, there will always be someone that will (very) harshly complain about a decision you have taken in anything you've worked. :P

Damn straight.

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Maybe just put all the key cards in secret areas, and most of the enemies and items too. The rest of the level doesn’t matter anyways. Nobody wants to walk around corridors and rooms, opening doors, and dealing with demons. Wall humping is what Doom is all about at its core.

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Whatever design decision you make, there will be people out there who don't like it (and conversely, people who do like it).

 

As others have said, your proposal of not tagging secrets is trying to solve something that's not your fault. If the player is getting frustrated trying to 100% the map, that's on them, not you.

 

Having said that, using untagged secrets is a perfectly valid design decision. But you should include them because you actually want to, not to placate 100% players.

Edited by Horus

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5 minutes ago, Fiber Wire said:

Maybe just put all the key cards in secret areas, and most of the enemies and items too. The rest of the level doesn’t matter anyways. Nobody wants to walk around corridors and rooms, opening doors, and dealing with demons. Wall humping is what Doom is all about at its core.

Gave me a good laugh.

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Maybe it’s an age thing but I remember when Doom never told you if you found a secret or not, and much older user maps where anything went, well… you really sometimes could not tell what was truly a secret and what was just tagged as a secret for whatever reason. That’s what made the intermission screen reveal so much fun was to see just how well you actually did, without the game giving you the juicy details while playing. Maybe that’s why I don’t care about getting all 100%s in the end. 

Edited by Fiber Wire

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how many of us are willing go the extra mile (full sicko, king's field mode) and respectfully refuse to telegraph them as well!

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Secrets will always be secrets no matter what. Everyone has different preferences and design tendencies and that wasn't even the hugest problem with Grey Dwarf (probably the best in fact!). Getting rid of any core mechanic or just a tag in this case is really just a case of "but whyyyyyy

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Terrible secret sector mechanic idea that's totally lying as a prototype on my drive - secret sectors are unmissable progression (i.e. certain doorframes), but they cease being taggable via sector effect removal if the player spends too much time getting there :)

 

But yeah, you cannot appeal to the entire spectrum of arbitrary enjoyment lines.

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Your point does have merit but I will not be following your suggestion, making things more accessible does have its benefits...

 

However personally, I find it absurd to disregard an established core mechanic, of which can be found in nearly every Doom wad released, because someone cannot simply let go of a 100% stat.

 

The way I see it is that secrets are rewards to assist players who are vigilant and notice various hints left for them, the secret tally itself is a small pat on the back for finding them (and a way of marking them separately from the map), but ultimately they're completely optional.

 

Personally I'm not going to change how I implement secrets because someone somewhere might be upset they can't find it and make number go big. I think that it is an absurd suggestion and quite frankly that's a them problem, all in all it is just a bit weird.

 

Just make what you want, there is such a thing as worthless feedback and this sounds like it to me.

Edited by mrthejoshmon

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I hate missing stuff, so ig I do what most people on these forums gunning for 100% do:

 

1) Try to find everything myself

 

2) If that takes too long, use the automap cheat in zdoom/gzdoom

 

3) If even that doesn't help, I just look stuff up in the editor

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Hey @stewboy, wanted to comment since I love Map 31, as a huge fan of puzzley games like Myst plus 90's dungeon crawlers and stuff like that, it's obvious that the map would appeal to me.

 

That said, it obviously doesn't appeal to everyone and I think that's just fine.

 

I think it's very important that you don't change your entire mapping style or personal philosophy just because someone didn't like a map.

 

That's the same thing as dobu gabu maru not making puzzles anymore, or making all puzzles easy because someone hated a puzzle. Or insane gazebo not making slaughter maps anymore because someone criticized Sunder. It would be unthinkable, and I find it unthinkable that you would feel forced to change your outlook because decino had a bad experience with your map.

 

I think that, as long as you have a target audience that *does* enjoy the map, and enjoys your work in general, then you should keep at it like you have been. I personally wouldn't want Grey Dwarf to be any other way. I'm a fan of that map. There's a time to listen to criticism and a time to stand your ground. I think it's time for the latter here now, but that's just me. I hope you keep at it.

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Personally speaking, I am not a big fan of AA map31. Though in my case, it has nothing to do with secrets (i think I only bothered to find 8-ish secrets on the map) and more to do with its labyrinth, almost Bungie's Marathon 1 like level design, which I wasn't fan of when I last tried that game.

 

Speaking of which @stewboy, is the map inspired from Marathon. Seems like it to me.l

 

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