Why I will no longer tag my secrets, and You Shouldn't Either: An Essay

[Human Being]

5 minutes ago, Impboy4 said:

[decino youtube video link]

 

Might want to reconsider, stewboy...

 

 

Just saw this video notification on my phone as well. Glad he said something and that someone else thought to post here as well.

[Hege]

I personally in my own mapping make it that if a secret is too obscure or requires a trick that is like one time pull off such as rocket jump or archvile jump, I wont bother marking it as a secret and treat it more as "easter egg"

Tagging secrets still has its own things, to not confuse someone to think the area is like, intended main route, there still should be definition on "yes you dont -have- to go here but you can go here" way.

[Mr Masker]

36 minutes ago, Impboy4 said:

Spoiler

 

Might want to reconsider, stewboy...

Decino brings up some good points in this. I personally am not that bothered by the extended HUD, but I can completely see how it could be a problem in some situations.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Mr Masker

[Tristan]

I think disabling extended HUD on first playthroughs is a good move. Even as someone who doesn't care about 100% it also removes any preconceptions you might have about a map when you first start it, which I think is a good thing. If nothing else it adds to the sense of mystery, but on top of that it also makes me think about a map I've been tinkering with for a set recently. I think it'll end up with a fairly hefty monster count (probably 500+), and I fear that if it gets released, when people see that monster count some will immediately start crying about slaughtermaps or gargantuan adventures and then quit the game or something... I don't want that because it's not really either of those things :/

[Horus]

Credit where credit is due, that is a rational and measured response 

[Eevee]

they're called "secret" because they're hard to find.  expecting to find them all first-try — without any downtime, no less — doesn't make any sense.

 

this feels like a combination of two factors:

 

① uv-max, originally a speedrun category, has become "how you play the game" to some amount of players.  which is fine, except it produces backwards pressure on map authors to make maps that are approachable to uv-max.

 

② there are A Lot Of Maps, and a given player will only play many of those maps once, so there's also pressure to make maps that are satisfying to only play once.

 

put these together and you get pressure on authors to create maps that are reasonable to uv-max on first attempt.  but that's nonsense.  the whole point of secrets is to give you something new to look for when you play through again!  and to encourage you to play again at all!

 

so my stance is the complete opposite: tag all of your secrets, even that horrible obscure one that only contains a single armor bonus or whatever.  actively taunt the player and their non-vanilla hud.  make maps where routing to the exit is very easy, but routing to also get every secret involves a ton of convoluted backtracking.  this is a game to be played and experienced, not a series of numbered hurdles to leisurely hop over.

[faad3e]

great response by decino, i've been playing without caring about 100%ing stuff since the mid 2000s, though im not really a completionist so yeah

[Heretic926]

I kindly disagree. I'm a novice mapper myself and I don't see a point of not using a feature that was in the game since the release. Like, imagine if you're playing iconic The Mucus Flow for the first time and you miraculously found that runny nose secret and... you don't get that feel that you've found something valuable, which is the whole point of "secret" in Doom, I think.

 

Personally I have three important rules of making a good secrets on the map:

1. Obscurity - how to get the secret shouldn't be obvious, but it shouldn't be too obscure either.
2. Reward - obviously, even if the reward is minimal such as a few health bonuses.
3. Necessity - the secret must be made with a purpose. If you don't think there should be a secret in this particular place on the map - don't do it.

In conclusion, I agree with the community here: if you're playing any wad for the first time - don't use extended HUD. But if you do - it's your choice, as well is potentially increasing frustration of not UV-MAX'ing the map (especially if you're a completionist).

Edited April 5, 2023 by Heretic926

[ChaoticReverie]

Blind UV-Max is my usual play style, but very rarely do I ever reach it. I don't even try, I just play as best I can without trying too hard to get 100%. It's not worth the stress.

 

In any map I make, I try to do away with the legacy score mechanics that the game has. I really do think it's something that needs to be left in the past. GZdoom (and other mapinfo supported source ports?) Allow for going a step further than what this thread discusses by completely eliminating the scoreboard entirely. I will be adopting this approach in my future maps along with the ideas discussed here so that no one ever feels pressure beyond having fun.

Edited April 5, 2023 by ChaoticReverie
A word

[OpenRift]

I think the thing about secrets people forget is that when Doom came out, there was no secrets counter while you were in the level. You weren't supposed to know how many secrets you found until you beat the level and saw the percentage in the results screen. The idea of not tagging your secrets because you see people humping walls for 30 minutes trying to 100% isn't so much a byproduct of the map's design, but of Doom's history in demo recording and speedrunning. I mean there are some bullshit secrets sometimes, but honestly it's not really the fault of the mapper if a player decides to go out of their way to get all the secrets. If you ask me, finding all secrets and UVMaxing a map is more for when you've played a map multiple times over, have mastered it, and know all the secrets.

Edited April 5, 2023 by OpenRift

[LouigiVerona]

@stewboy Very interesting thoughts. I definitely agree with this. In fact, I think one can agree with you in some cases, for some maps and decide to mark some secrets for others.

 

But I think your main point, or at least my takeaway, is what is the function of the counter? And is it important to get all the secrets? I think Doom was created back in the time when counters were just standard things people did, whether they were needed or not. Like those games with useless scoreboards.

In fact, I would perhaps say that map designers should ask themselves whether their map requires secrets to begin with. Not all maps need secrets, in my opinion.

[Chalibluefin]

On 4/3/2023 at 6:37 PM, baja blast rd. said:

"I can't help but feel that a lot of the negative comments about the map on Decino's video would have been far milder (though not completely gone) had he spent less time on the map" 

 

About this specifically: people judging a map primarily (or exclusively!) by how fun it is to watch a YouTuber play it is an unfortunate form of idiocy, and a growing one -- but one I think you just have to tune out as noise. Another way to put it is that these comments are not about the map. They are about the playthrough and basically saying Decino's playthrough was boring and frustrating. Decino ""fans"" smh not very loyal. :P

I'm not sure what the fans of decino have to do with this take to be quite frank. People who follow decino will watch and enjoy his content no matter if it's a doom playthrough or analysis. Seems like a weird potshot to make. Most frustrations aren't at decino's play style because...that's what they are there for lol

Inherently some maps aren't just enjoyable to watch "being played" which would reflect on it being played itself. Maybe some people like watching someone play the hellforge branded magnum opus of the month but definitely the fans also enjoy watching the player themselves. Take into account how close decino is with his community before taking the piss out of them. As far as noise and criticisms of maps from a viewer standpoint, I could say viewers simply put themselves in decino or someone else's shoes and determine "wow I would not enjoy this." 

[BlueThunder]

Whether or not someone gets all the secrets or not, is based on someone's play style, and or how they are playing a specific map at that specific time.  One of my favorite things about Doom is you can play it so many ways,  most importantly your way.

[Bauul]

2 hours ago, Tristan said:

I think disabling extended HUD on first playthroughs is a good move. Even as someone who doesn't care about 100% it also removes any preconceptions you might have about a map when you first start it, which I think is a good thing.

 

I remember watching a streamer play through 1000 Lines 2, and upon reaching Map 32 (which is a puzzle level, containing enemies purely as a part of a puzzle) they saw the monster count was in the hundreds and immediately skipped it assuming it was a slaughtermap.  The real-time stats can definitely give the wrong impression of a level.

[Jokin]

I have to admit that at the beginning I was one of those completionists and I would get frustrated when I couldn't find secrets, however it didn't take long for me to skip secrets when I wouldn't find them.

The hud is both a blessing and a curse. The first time it ruined my enjoyment of a level was when it spoiled me plutonia MAP31's fake exit. 

[Flyxolydian]

I quite like Grey Dwarf. It heavily reminds me of Halo 1's Assault on the Control Room, both in atmosphere and in the midi used. Then again, my favourite map from AA is Trinary Temple, so I'm not sure what that says about my preferences...

[MathsDevil]

I really appreciated Decino's comments in his video 'The Biggest Problem With Blind Playthroughs' in which he realised that expecting to find everything in a map first time is the player's problem, not the mapper's. If a map is exploration-based like AA Map 31, the mapper should be disappointed if players find all secrets on their first run. Having more puzzles to figure out is a good thing. While the Stewboy map isn't everyone's favourite, it has its place and Decino's frustration shouldn't make the mapper feel like they failed in some capacity. 

 

[Cruduxy Pegg]

I think you'll hurt your maps if you omit secrets altogether. There are players who never use huds or menus to tell them where to find secrets and how many are left and even disable the notification that they've found a secret; Secrets are one way to tell such players that they didn't find everything the map has to offer if they decide to replay.

 

And yeah seeing monster counters and items absolutely impacts how the player will look at the map. Might even build a negative opinion about the map if they don't like the monster count (too high/low) doesn't match their preference.

[Vi3D]

How about a compromise where you tag big secrets, like ones that include weapons, a lot of ammo, armor, soul/mega/invuln sphere, etc., but not boring secrets like one single box of shells or a medikit.

[Gez]

4 hours ago, Bauul said:

It makes me wonder how much the stat screen influences how some people approach levels.  If they tracked different things, e.g. health picked up, or % of gibbable enemies gibbed, or map units travelled by the player, would we see the way people play the levels change, even though the ultimate objective (find the exit linedef) remains the same.

Very probably. There's a ton of extra stats that could be tracked -- barrels exploded (ScoreDoom did that), damage dealt, accuracy (i.e. percentage of your hitscans and projectiles that have impacted a shootable thing instead of map geometry), health lost, shots fired, average movement speed... And perhaps even how many times you have saved, loaded, or died on this level during the session.

And each stat added would mean new playstyles aimed at either minimizing or maximizing this stat at the end of the level.

 

 

Also I agree with the response video from Decino. The problem isn't tagged secrets, the problem isn't even the secret revealed notification some ports have added, the problem is the in-game tally that tells you how many secrets you still need to find (and how many monsters you still need to kill, how many items you still need to pick). These statistics make perfect sense when you already know a level and are just grinding it to get a better run; but for a first playthrough it spoils the discovery.

[Not Jabba]

I have to respectfully disagree about Lost Souls. They deserve to be punished for being Lost Souls and therefore must all be killed. I play in a port that counts them as kills, but I feel like it's pretty natural to see them that way regardless. 

 

I also sheepishly admit to being a barrel completionist (I don't like leaving any undetonated), even with no stat count whatsoever. I definitely wouldn't fight with a mapper over that one, though.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Not Jabba

[indigotyrian]

4 hours ago, Impboy4 said:

Might want to reconsider, stewboy...

 

Honestly, good on Decino for offering such a level-headed, introspective, and above all thoughtful response.

[philcul]

I honestly think that this will make the blind playthrough videos more fun to watch. And yeah, great response by him. 

[Cybernight Zero]

I tend to like shorter maps and 3 or 4 secrets, but that's my preference. TNT Revilution has way more levels with a ridiculous amount of secrets so not sure what the fuss was with your map. Likely we were just used to like 1 or 2 secrets per map. 

 

Rather than changing tagging secrets, I suggest better telegraphing it to the player to make it easier to find.

[Poncho1]

Pretty late to the party, but my take is simply: make the maps - secrets or not - the way you want. Don't feel like you should alter anything, even if you feel like you're being, well, "bullied" - unintentional/unintended as it may be on their parts - by the opinions of Doom's most prominent online figures.

[Fadri]

35 minutes ago, Not Jabba said:

I have to respectfully disagree about Lost Souls. They deserve to be punished for being Lost Souls and therefore must all be killed. I play in a port that counts them as kills, but I feel like it's pretty natural to see them that way regardless.  

Yes.

Also, getting 100% monster kills is not just for the need to see a full percentage in the intermission screen... it's your duty as Doomguy!
If you leave some of the demons alive, they could escape to Earth and eat some people!

[WashingMachineEnthusiasts]

Magic the Gathering designers have talked about having three archetypes of people who play: those who play to win at all costs, those who play to find the most creative and convoluted combos, and those who just play socially. They've talked openly about releases being failures where they have catered too much to one archetype at the expense of the others.

 

Similarly, I think there are three archetypes of Doom players: people who have to max every map they play (e.g. Decino), people who want to see how much they can break a map open to get the fastest time (e.g. Zero Master) and people who play just to reach the end and have fun along the way.

 

In my opinion, as a designer, one should not over-cater to one archetype at the expense of the others. Removing secrets entirely would be detrimental to the experience of the casual player, just as removing all possible sequence breaking would be detrimental to the experience of the speedrunner.

 

Also, in my opinion, the fact that the majority of streamers and youtubers are in the first archetype makes their opinion overrepresented compared to their actual proportion of the playerbase. Or, put simply, the loudest group is not always the biggest group.

 

I'm not touching on whether a secret is a good secret or not, as that's very subjective.

[Biodegradable]

Like any other kind of creative endeavor, everyone develops methods that work for them. No doubt Stew's idea appeals to some while others find it silly. You've all provided a pretty balanced perspective regarding how people regard and engage with secrets and I've yet to see anything that sounds terribly unreasonable. I feel like the old writing advice I got from school, "write the stuff you'd personally want to read" can very much be applied to Doom mapping and how you go about crafting secrets. Much like a comedian tells jokes they personally find funny, it's best for all you clever Doom landscape artists to just keep doing your own thing and design the kind of maps that excite you by utilizing your ideas and tastes when it comes to the kind of secrets that push the right buttons in your brain. This community's history of what's possible in Doom proves there's no single, absolute way to design a map and that includes how one goes about it with secrets.

 

The most important person you need to impress isn't the streamers, the YouTubers or even specific community members, but yourself. Everyone else's reaction to your work is a positive consequence, but shouldn't be agonized over or seen as a huge driving factor to what you create. While you guys can design a map that can potentially manipulate the player's actions, it's best not to stress too much about controlling how they play in every aspect. Whether you label your secrets or not, whether you make them a fun bonus or particularly important to progression or even use them as an excuse to be a cheeky cunt and troll the player a little; l don't think you can go wrong.

 

Doom it your way, baby.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Biodegradable

[bofu]

32 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

The most important person you need to impress isn't the streamers, the YouTubers or even specific community members, but yourself.

 

This is the best sentence I've ever read on these forums, and I've read a lot of great sentences on these forums. (And some weird ones.)

 

While it's good to take feedback as a creator, not all feedback should be taken equally. Is someone playing your level the way it's intended to be played? When someone's blind UV-MAXing a level, the answer to that is likely to be no unless you designed it explicitly for that purpose. Even someone who has a lot of insight into Doom level design might have better feedback after they play a level a few times than on their first blind playthrough of it, especially if it's a longer level.

 

I also appreciate decino's response to this. It takes a lot of integrity to own up to being unfairly harsh to something on a stream and addressing why that might be.

[DuckReconMajor]

As NotJabba said, I'm glad this thread exists; I hope someday Doom wad archaeologists can point to this moment in time as an inflection point of doomtubers and their maxing habits and how it influenced a generation of mappers to either accommodate them or piss them off.

 

As RonnieJamesDiner said, this is really just a re-heated UV or bust debate. Or the saves debate. Or the pistol start debate.

No one can control the conditions under which their art is consumed.

Maybe the best movie of all time comes out and on that day everyone gets a toothache and gets dumped and it doesn't get the appreciation it deserves. (the script for my video essay on the 1990 DuckTales movie is leaking)

You can't account for that! You can try though and sometimes that is art in itself. There's no right answer and that's why these discussions are fun. 

 

Some more thoughts that probably were said better by previous posts:

1. like several things in prboom/dsda-doom, that HUD was there to facilitate (UV-max🤮) speedrunners was it not? Then a general audience got in there and it affected the way they played. Suddenly everyone is an expert and knows how things are "supposed" to run around here, and the "right" way to play the game. Maybe now the meta shifts and everyone turns off their extended HUD? (not me though, i cbf looking for secrets and a full row of zeroes above the status bar won't change that 🤷‍♀️)
2. Our life is finite. Some imagine themselves on their deathbed fretting about never finding that one secret in Valiant map 3 or whatever. Meanwhile i think of the 3 wads you could have played in the time it took you to comb over a single level! Neither way is correct, some people are just really into the act of exploration (i think it's just a fad). 
3. Getting negative feedback on something you create just plain sucks, there's no getting around it. It's natural to want to please everyone to avoid it, but there will never be an agreed upon standard to accomplish this. Just keep making more stuff, or take a break, and eventually you'll decide for yourself which criticisms you wish to address. Discussions like this one are part of that process and I love to see them, even though no objective "truth" can come out of them.