Why do you not use free look?

[EraserheadBaby]

I play in GZDOOM and use UDB to build.  I build levels with verticality, slopes, water, etc..., but many of my testers did not use free look even though it's recommended in the description (but it's not necessary).  I was wondering if there's just something about the feel of no mouse look that is preferable.

 

Top answers are:

1. Nostalgia

2. Makes the game play unique

3. Makes the experience easier to comprehend

4. Free look makes sprites and textures look bad

5. Ergonomics

6. It breaks the map

 

Useful information.  Thanks

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by EraserheadBaby

[ducon]

Because it sucks with keyboard only.

[thiccyosh]

Ok? I don't have to justify myself for not using a feature. I just don't use it, unless it's a wad that absolutely needs it.

[Fiber Wire]

It’s just how I’ve always played the game. Even though I play plenty of other games with freelook, I don’t see the need to do so with Doom myself. The auto aim works fine for me and keeps the classic feel.
 

Also I play DM often and still prefer this mode for Doom, even when combatting players who do use freelook, I’ve still won many matches anyhow. So why change what works for me?

 

Even if you want to argue it breaks immersion, it really doesn’t for me at least. Looking up and down in levels that weren’t designed with that in mind and not being able to jump and crouch without breaking the level progression in these same levels? For WADs with these features in mind that’s one thing, but for the base games I prefer to play without freelook. 
 

With games like Duke 3D and Quake I’m the opposite and prefer to play with mouselook enabled and Autoaim off. But then again, freelook was always a feature for those games, and also essentially required in order to activate specific switches.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Fiber Wire

[Auxilant]

I've started playing classic doom pretty recently, so it's definitely not about nostalgia for me. I just find the way it handles really unique, kinda like a 2D top down shooter in a 3D form. There is a million true 3D FPS games out there, so I haven't felt much of a reason to go freelook in this one.
I can understand the immersion argument, but I personally don't really care about that. I treat doom as an arcade game basically.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Auxilant

[Stabbey]

I always have free look on and auto-aim off, even if the WAD says to not use free look.

[EraserheadBaby]

9 minutes ago, thiccyosh said:

Ok? I don't have to justify myself for not using a feature. I just don't use it, unless it's a wad that absolutely needs it.

I'm just curious why people do this so I can take it into account during level design.  No need to take it personally. 

[Garlichead]

7 minutes ago, Auxilant said:

I've started playing classic doom pretty recently, so it's definitely not about nostalgia for me. I just find the way it handles really unique, kinda like a 2D top down shooter in a 3D form. There is a million true 3D FPS games out there, so I haven't felt much of a reason to go freelook in this one.
I can understand the immersion argument, but I personally don't really care about that. I treat doom as an arcade game basically.

Completely agree. That is the same reason why I don't use free look. I like the simplicity of having only two directions to aim to.

 

[EraserheadBaby]

7 minutes ago, Auxilant said:

I've started playing classic doom pretty recently, so it's definitely not about nostalgia for me. I just find the way it handles really unique, kinda like a 2D top down shooter in a 3D form. There is a million true 3D FPS games out there, so I haven't felt much of a reason to go freelook in this one.
I can understand the immersion argument, but I personally don't really care about that. I treat doom as an arcade game basically.

Interesting.  A first person top down.  I wonder if a Smash TV style level would be cool.  I guess that's a slaughtermap.

[Fiber Wire]

Let me make it clear that I don’t have an issue with freelook or anything like that. I just don’t see the point in using it myself unless it is a requirement of the WAD. I prefer the classic feel to how Doom controls without Y-Axis aiming. Like I said, multiplayer has people who have freelook +/- autoaim, and people with freelook off with autoaim on. I don’t think it really makes anyone “better” to control it one way or the other, it just makes the individual play better to use their preferred way of controlling the game.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Fiber Wire

[EraserheadBaby]

7 minutes ago, Stabbey said:

I always have free look on and auto-aim off, even if the WAD says to not use free look.

Same.  And I've been designing my maps that way.  But I noticed a lot of play testers do not use free look, even though I recommend it in the descriptions.  I found that curious.  And thanks again for all your feedback on my first two levels.  It really helped me understand what's expected in a map and what's just annoying.

[thiccyosh]

8 minutes ago, EraserheadBaby said:

No need to take it personally.

 

I didn't mean to sound harsh, sorry!

 

I just think autoaim does its job well enough. Of course it's harder to hit enemies when they're on very high ledges, see Map13 in Doom 2, but that is never fun when you actually have to do that.

[Roofi]

Because it's useless most of the time and  I think it's even counter-intuitive sometimes because I feel like players tend to look at the ground when playing with the freelook instead of looking straight.

[Mr Masker]

52 minutes ago, EraserheadBaby said:

but sticking to neck brace doom just seems like rose coloured glasses to me. 

Actually I didn't grow up with old Doom but I still don't use Freelook.

 

For me, it just looks... off, it's hard to describe. The visuals of classic doom look kinda weird when you can look and down, it's not as bad in GZDoom but it still looks unnatural unless I'm playing something like a Total Conversion. I also turn it on for Gameplay mods because a lot of them have stuff like weapon recoil or just presume you have it on

 

Also, some level sets presume you can't shoot switches above you so it can break progression sometimes. I did actually used to use free look, but ever since turning it off it just feels unnatural being able to look up and down in standard doom.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Mr Masker

[Doomy__Doom]

Because it would make gliding really awkward.

 

If you mean vertical autoaim - because what I like in Doom is the collection of small weird mechanics - whether it is infinite height, no reloading, weapon switching, glides, wallruns, infighting... and autoaim is a massive mechanic. The 1024 range limitation, monsters "below" taking hits for those "above" because they're in front - those things are "rules of the game" which have direct effect on encounter design and interactions with environment.

 

If you mean looking up and down (irrespective of autoaim) - having a fixed angle helps me process terrain, monsters and projectiles for "can I move through there" faster when zooming around at doomguy speeds. Similar-sized gaps look consistently same because there is no random vertical angle factor.

[RHhe82]

I’m really used to neckbrace Doom, it doesn’t break immersion. If anything, freelook feels funny to me.

 

I assume by default shootable switches are designed such that you’d break sequence and risk softlocking if you hit them without being on the same level (more or less, SSG gives some freedom there).

 

Of course map could be designed with freelook in mind - if that’s stated in the text file, I’ll use it, no problem. Most often the wads I enjoy assume neckbraced mariner.

Edited April 7, 2023 by RHhe82
Finished one sentence :P

[Ravendesk]

Simply because sprites look ugly as hell from mouselook angles.

[xScavengerWolfx]

The reason why i don't use free look is because i like to keep it simple. Now that don't mean i won't use it every now and then but for me as a mapper and a player i feel like freelook kinda breaks the feel of the old school shooters of the ancient times.

 

Now am i going to be like "i'm boycotting freelook because it's dumb and it ruins doom"? No, no i'm not. I getting at is i don't use freelook because i like the feel of not looking up and down and it's more fun to use the auto aim to hit enemies from afar.

 

So overall why i don't use it is because i want to play doom how it was meant to be played.

[Andrea Rovenski]

I dont use freelook because doom doesn't have freelook :) 

 

if I played a zdoom game that required it, I would

 

y'all do y'all :)

 

also, vert mouse movement is a requirement for me, so anything with freelook is a turn off because I can barely play the game without vertmouse 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Andrea Rovenski

[Klear]

Setting VR aside, which is like freelook on steroids, I tend to play with freelook on, but I turn it off periodically as I test my maps to make sure everything is fine without it. And honestly, by now I barely register the difference in normal gameplay.

[NinthBurn]

I used to feel the same way as you do about this topic, I also preferred to use mouse look. However, as I got to play more wads and to watch other people's playthroughs, I have embraced playing without mouse look. At first it seemed like I was downgrading my experience, but I did so in order to understand and to try to experience what the mappers had intended. Nowadays, I play with the setting turned off, just because it feels... natural.

[Wyrmwood]

I like both, mostly use free-look on PC though but sometimes I like to play older WADs (or where the readme recommends) with it turned off or it's too easy to cheat by shooting switches you shouldn't be able to. Looking down on sprites ain't pretty neither. If I do though I like to play with cross-hair on, set to turn red when targeting or I end up wasting too many rockets on walls, thing I picked up from the Switch version. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Wyrmwood

[Gregor]

It's pretty simple. Most Doom levels are not designed with freelook in mind. Unless something was specifically made for GZDoom (which most releases are not) you're not supposed to have 360 degree vision. So using it is like activating god mode; it's a cheat that gives you abilities to assess your environment that the map maker didn't intended you to have. Ports like GZDoom allow you to turn it on regardless but that doesn't mean it's the "correct" way to go. If the mod was made with freelook in mind, things like Elementalism or Ashes Afterglow for instance, then of course i will use freelook.

But I always try to play a wad the way the map author intended me to first. That's also why i'm not a huge fan of GZDoom overall, it teaches players that all its visual features and gameplay hacks are the default way of playing Doom rather than vanilla. 

 

The second reason not to use freelook is that Doom uses sprites for its monsters and for me it really breaks immersion when it looks like i'm fighting billboards instead of demons.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Gregor

[Human Being]

I think an important distinction to make is: Was the WAD designed to be played without freelook?

The majority of GZDoom WADS use all of the newer features: Freelook, jump, crouch, lighting, floors over floors (actually 3d geometry). But many classic DooM WADS, especially those being speedrun, are mostly applicable to the engine limitations & configurations of the time, and are built accordingly. So If you use jump, crouch, freelook etc. for a WAD that is specifically designed to say, make you find specific places, get specific keys, etc, to be able to shoot a switch that then has another action (and you're not able to do this action without those extra features) - but then you turn freelook on and shoot that switch immediately, you broke the game. You trivialized something that was meant to make you work for it. I'm not referencing any specific WAD or map, but plenty of those situations exist.

So for me, I play the game how the mapmaker/WAD maker intended it to be play. And I mainly play & run WADs that are designed to be used without freelook and with autoaim. because those are the WADS I enjoy the most. And I occasionally play GZDoom WADS that are intended to have the other features, so then of course I turn them on.

 

Ultimately anyone can play however they want. But there are consequences to that way of thinking/playing, depending on which WADs you're playing. Or maybe in some people eyes, it doesn't matter. They just want to play DooM how they want to play DooM.

[Residue]

I really only use freelook if I'm playing an iWAD casually in a sourceport that supports it or if a pWAD absolutely requires it. My reasoning for not using it is that often times the majority of things involving Doom, whether it be community or id made stuff, it was all made with that specific limitation in mind - that you cannot look up or down. It's just how I grew up playing Doom, and I'm fairly certain I'm not alone in that regard. Not only that, but I also believe that having those limitations present gives Doom a unique charm & gameplay spice that aren't as present in most FPS that succeeded it.

[EraserheadBaby]

10 minutes ago, Residue said:

I also believe that having those limitations present gives Doom a unique charm & gameplay spice that aren't as present in most FPS that succeeded it. 

Alright.  I just got so excited by all the UDB options that I didn't even consider the limitation as a unique feature.  I need to pull in the scope of my levels anyway.  I'll consider this on my next build. 

[LadyMistDragon]

It's not always practical or advisable especially unless you want to break a map. Not like I've ever thought freelook has broken a map as such, but on the other hand, it can ruin the surprise of monster placements in spots....which actually isn't such a bad thing in the more frustrating wads.

[indigotyrian]

I don't use freelook since enabling it stretches the sky and makes it ugly. Really silly reason but that's it lol.

[Dweller Dark]

The main reason that I don't use freelook in anything other than a GZDoom mod is that I'm concerned about breaking the level when I don't want to. That, and it adds an element of danger when there's an enemy above or below you that you can't see, like in that Doom 2 level with the skyscraper buildings full of imps. 

[Jiggahertz]

I do use freelook

 

It's a nice QOL improvement