[Community Project] Scythe: Resharpened

[EPICALLL]

13 minutes ago, DRON12261 said:

I like the "Scythe: Re-Sharpened" version with the meaningful wordplay. I can also suggest "Scythe: Re-Forged" or "Scythe: Re-Casting" from similar ones.

I guess, but that more so suggest that this is like a revival of scythe, a scythe 4 if you will instead of a remake of the original

[DoctorNuriel]

Scythe: Laceration

[cannonball]

Personally I looked at the OP and immediately thought “Scythe - In Name Only” but with even more stringent rules regarding the midi selection.

In the end it is great to see people wanting to express their gratitude to a truly influential mapper, but for me I am in the camp of wanting to express this in other ways. Best of luck on this project, there seems to be plenty of people who want this to happen.

[spineapple tea]

I know it's been one day since signing up for it, but I'd like to drop my MAP30 slot. Since it's approaching the end of the school year for me, maybe I'll be doing my own personal project related to Scythe soon. Good luck to whoever wants the slot.

[Axuris]

WIP screenshots of my map

[Ludi]

On 4/10/2023 at 9:44 AM, AD_79 said:

I'd be a lot more interested in the end result if it was something more along the lines of "create new maps that feel like Scythe. Produce something Alm could have possibly made himself". What you're asking for sounds more like "Scythe, a thing that already exists but remixed slightly", which is far less compelling. Following the original right down to the map names and music choices feels really uninspired, and to me would provide far less reason to play it over the original.

 

Gotta agree, isn't it better to move forward rather than make something derivative of a classic work?

 

(I am very aware of the irony of saying this)

[EPICALLL]

2 hours ago, spineapple tea said:

know it's been one day since signing up for it, but I'd like to drop my MAP30 slot. Since it's

got it, farewell.

[EPICALLL]

1 hour ago, Axuris said:

WIP screenshots of my map

Dayummmm
Keep it up, man!

[Zion]

On 4/10/2023 at 11:44 AM, AD_79 said:

I'd be a lot more interested in the end result if it was something more along the lines of "create new maps that feel like Scythe. Produce something Alm could have possibly made himself". What you're asking for sounds more like "Scythe, a thing that already exists but remixed slightly", which is far less compelling. Following the original right down to the map names and music choices feels really uninspired, and to me would provide far less reason to play it over the original.

 

I think from a mapping standpoint I like to remake and enhance classic wads, and since the visuals and decorating of the original scythe isn't all that pretty (even the original creator said it was an afterthought) I think giving it a new look would be fun.

Now I can see why someone wouldn't want to play a wad like this considering it won't change that much from the original, perhaps it would be more exciting if the mappers would have more freedom like making it in UMDF, so you could play the original scythe with GZDoom enhancements.

[General Roasterock]

If you're really looking to make a Scythe inspired project, I don't believe there's a "sickle.wad" on idgames yet. The name is tangential to farming tools, it's less than eight characters long, and it sets out the set as more than just "making the whole thing again"

 

Also, as it stands, I'm still confused by the lack of hard numbers in the rules, with caveats that seem to break them.

 

1. You have to keep the same name in music for your map, or you can just not?

2. The map has to have a similar composition except it doesn't cause I guess you don't like The Lords?

3. You have to have a completion demo/video ONLY if you take Map 30?

4. What exactly qualifies as an update? I'm guessing a screenshot of progress, but it's not defined.

 

Parroting everyone here, I do think it would be far more interesting to have guidelines as to what Erik did that made Scythe great, require mappers to work within THOSE constraints instead of simply copying landmarks from each of the maps, and then separate them visually with the episode cutoffs. As much as I love Scythe, restricting people to make them use the music if they want to share a title is automatically knocking the wind out of the level. 

[EPICALLL]

2 hours ago, General Roasterock said:

If you're really looking to make a Scythe inspired project, I don't believe there's a "sickle.wad" on idgames yet. The name is tangential to farming tools, it's less than eight characters long, and it sets out the set as more than just "making the whole thing again"

 

Also, as it stands, I'm still confused by the lack of hard numbers in the rules, with caveats that seem to break them.

 

1. You have to keep the same name in music for your map, or you can just not?

2. The map has to have a similar composition except it doesn't cause I guess you don't like The Lords?

3. You have to have a completion demo/video ONLY if you take Map 30?

4. What exactly qualifies as an update? I'm guessing a screenshot of progress, but it's not defined.

 

Parroting everyone here, I do think it would be far more interesting to have guidelines as to what Erik did that made Scythe great, require mappers to work within THOSE constraints instead of simply copying landmarks from each of the maps, and then separate them visually with the episode cutoffs. As much as I love Scythe, restricting people to make them use the music if they want to share a title is automatically knocking the wind out of the level. 

1. The rule is, if you change the music or map name, both have to change. You can't just change one, for the sake of not sounding like a Rip-Off

2. Similar, yes. The same, no. The Lords is way too short, spineless, and ugly for it's own good for me to really go "Yeah sure, make the lords again"
Generally how the rule goes is that you just have to keep the spirit of both the map and Erik Alm.

3. Yeah, because MAP30 is very difficult in Scythe 1.

4. You got it, but videos, or walls of text work too. Really anything that notifies me that you are still working on the map.

Generally, I want to preserve the essence of Scythe. Notice how Erik never re-uses a track? And outside of Garden Base II? Was it? From Scythe 2, he doesn't re-use or rip off names that much either. I might change it if more people working on the project have something to say, but as it stands, I'm not budging unless if the mappers get riled up, after all, they know more than anyone else of the consequences/causes of following these rules.

[Bobby :D]

1 hour ago, EPICALLL said:

2. Similar, yes. The same, no. The Lords is way too short, spineless, and ugly for it's own good for me to really go "Yeah sure, make the lords again"
Generally how the rule goes is that you just have to keep the spirit of both the map and Erik Alm.

Whats the point of "using the original concept" if you are just going to change it? Set some actual rules for the project if you are going to ignore them yourself

[EPICALLL]

Just now, Bobby "J said:

Whats the point of "using the original concept" if you are just going to change it? Set some actual rules for the project if you are going to ignore them yourself

the op says the lords is the exception for that exact reason.

[Bobby :D]

Just now, EPICALLL said:

the op says the lords is the exception for that exact reason.

Great precedent for a project where the project lead makes rules for their own maps

[EPICALLL]

1 minute ago, Bobby "J said:

Great precedent for a project where the project lead makes rules for their own maps

I never said they couldn't remake the lords. Yes, I strongly suggested changing things up, but I don't think I ever said you HAD to not remake the lords.

[Shepardus]

1 hour ago, EPICALLL said:

1. The rule is, if you change the music or map name, both have to change. You can't just change one, for the sake of not sounding like a Rip-Off

How is it not a ripoff if you use the same music and map name, but it is if you change one of them? I don't understand what this rule seeks to accomplish.

[EPICALLL]

Just now, Shepardus said:

How is it not a ripoff if you use the same music and map name, but it is if you change one of them? I don't understand what this rule seeks to accomplish.

You've got a point there. I will admit. Honestly, I wanted to see more creative energy than anything, erm, through adversity. I wanted to make a project where people are sorta forced to think a bit outside the box when making their maps. Or in other words, finding said shortcuts or holes in the information like you guys have, and building off of them instead of tearing them down.

[Bobby :D]

6 minutes ago, EPICALLL said:

I never said they couldn't remake the lords. Yes, I strongly suggested changing things up, but I don't think I ever said you HAD to not remake the lords. 

What does that even mean to change things up? Make it not short? Part of what makes scythe great is it's short. Spineless? It's scythe, what do you expect from the first episode. If you want something difficult and as faithful as possible, the lords remake in Machete already does that amazingly. Ugly? Again, it's scythe, the maps for the most part aren't great visually outside of the non-speedmaps. It sounds like what you want from the project is scythe but with all it's charm stripped from it.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Bobby "J

[GarrettChan]

4 hours ago, General Roasterock said:

If you're really looking to make a Scythe inspired project, I don't believe there's a "sickle.wad" on idgames yet. The name is tangential to farming tools, it's less than eight characters long, and it sets out the set as more than just "making the whole thing again"

It's funny that I said Sickle to somebody else when I was talking about this project with him lmao.

[EPICALLL]

3 minutes ago, Bobby "J said:

What does that even mean to change things up? Make it not short? Part of what makes scythe great is it's short. Spineless? It's scythe, what do you expect from the first episode. If you want something difficult and as faithful as possible, the lords remake in Machete already does that amazingly. Ugly? Again, it's scythe, the maps for the most part aren't great outside of the non-speedmaps. It sounds like what you want from the project is scythe but with all it's charm stripped from it.

Maybe it's just me not being a fan of the lords, like, at all. I don't know. Yeah, spineless is a lot of scythe 1, but like... I meant in a uniquely boring way. I guess what I find wrong with the lords is that it's too much scythe. Just takes all of the flaws that make an otherwise boring wad charming, and makes an entire level out of only those flaws.

Edited April 12, 2023 by EPICALLL

[Bobby :D]

23 minutes ago, EPICALLL said:

Maybe it's just me not being a fan of the lords, like, at all. I don't know. Yeah, spineless is a lot of scythe 1, but like... I meant in a uniquely boring way. I guess what I find wrong with the lords is that it's too much scythe. Just takes all of the flaws that make an otherwise boring wad charming, and makes an entire level out of only those flaws.

I mean if you find Scythe by itself boring, maybe making a wad based entirely on it's preexisting material is a bad idea?

[EPICALLL]

24 minutes ago, Bobby "J said:

I mean if you find Scythe by itself boring, maybe making a wad based entirely on it's preexisting material is a bad idea?

It's more so just that specific map, really.

[MoiraHeart]

Iunno (Torn), I think it's up to the mapper to interpret what Scythe means to them. It's a celebration of 20 years of the WAD, of all the memories we shared playing it. If The Lords means "4 barons" for you, then go ahead. If you remember it as a short and snappy boss map, then do that. That's the spirit of community remakes, express what we remember the original for - very familiar, yet with an added twist of our own interpretation of what makes a map great/memorable.

Edited April 13, 2023 by MoiraHeart

[UltimateDecaf]

MAP 31: I dunno Torn

Played the original map, liked the bfg trap, and the path to another secret exit. I want the traps and encounters to be a tad more difficult though. Also, I want to spruce the place up. Havenn't started the actual layout, I want to be more familiar with nuts and bolts of the original.

[tonytheparrot]

Honestly, I don't like the way this thread is going RN. I am dropping out of this project. Good Luck for the rest!

[Axuris]

2 minutes ago, tonytheparrot said:

Honestly, I don't like the way this thread is going RN. I am dropping out of this project. Good Luck for the rest!

Same here.

[UltimateDecaf]

18 hours ago, EPICALLL said:

Maybe it's just me not being a fan of the lords, like, at all. I don't know. Yeah, spineless is a lot of scythe 1, but like... I meant in a uniquely boring way. I guess what I find wrong with the lords is that it's too much scythe. Just takes all of the flaws that make an otherwise boring wad charming, and makes an entire level out of only those flaws.

 

I replayed the Lords, and I think it's not a bad map at all. Akin to Dead Simple, it's sort of an intermezzo in between more expanded maps, and presents a fairly beatable challenge limiting player's movement. I don't mind playing an expanded version of it that stays true to some parts of the layout and visual presence. Of course it's short, but I would link that to Doom 2 being a 32-level game. Creating equally large maps even without a strict deadline is a tough task. 

 

Also, I think for average Doom enjoyers like myself, who didn't get much exposure to oldschool Doom before, the whole Scythe 1 was a very nice introduction to the variety of difficulty one could present in a mapset. With episode 1 being very beginner-friendly to later maps really challenging the player.

Edited April 13, 2023 by UltimateDecaf

[Zion]

1 hour ago, tonytheparrot said:

Honestly, I don't like the way this thread is going RN. I am dropping out of this project. Good Luck for the rest!

Sadly I started to feel the same way and will drop out too.

[baja blast rd.]

The Lords's issue is not really length and bodycount because people have done pretty fun, good maps with similar numbers of monsters and similar length (and similar detail level in this case). Also aesthetically, you can definitely do a 'rocky catwalk in a lava basin' map with an adjoining tech stock-up room while not looking as ugly as the original, not using much more design fidelity, and also not being identical to the original in concept.

 

If there's no freedom to vary substantially from The Lords and do much better while holding "design (not including visuals), length, and difficulty" (as the OP says) similar, to the extent where the project needs a special exception for it, then that's maybe an underlying tipoff of the project's premise expecting too much similarity to the point of being stifling. Because it would otherwise seem obvious to me that a map can do that. Maybe also indicates a kneejerk "this map is bad" without thinking about why and how it can do much better within the parameters provided.  

[EPICALLL]

9 hours ago, tonytheparrot said:

Honestly, I don't like the way this thread is going RN. I am dropping out of this project. Good Luck for the rest!

 

9 hours ago, Axuris said:

Same here.

 

8 hours ago, Zion said:

Sadly I started to feel the same way and will drop out too.

Farewell, and thank you for your contributions, however big or small. I wish you well on future endeavors!