[Community Project] Scythe: Resharpened

[Lorcav]

24 minutes ago, DRON12261 said:

The start location is poorly implemented, even worse than in the original and does not resemble that location at all, it should be completely redone. From the arrows is better to get rid of and just replace it with a long red carpet (in the original, the big arrow resembled him), as well as keep the original color scheme of the place. 

 

 

2. The Map must be similar (but not the same as the map preceding it) in design (not including visuals), length, and difficulty to the map it's made after.

I am happy that my map meets the criteria set in the OP, similar in design but not the same visuals. When @EPICALLL flagged the difficulty issue, I was happy to change it on this basis. 

 

 

28 minutes ago, DRON12261 said:

You should also do a little more work on the ceiling in this arena, it's too flat, make the unevenness and something like stalagmites. 

 

You've suggested making the first section more consistent with the original, then making the latter section less consistent. The original has an almost entirely flat ceiling without stalactites. 

 

 

The only remaining issue is the arrows. I think it's an amusing reference to the original which is perhaps the most well-known floor arrow outside of the official WADS? It's not supposed to be taken seriously, that's why there are so many of them. 

 

 

 

[DRON12261]

2 minutes ago, Lorcav said:

 

2. The Map must be similar (but not the same as the map preceding it) in design (not including visuals), length, and difficulty to the map it's made after.

I am happy that my map meets the criteria set in the OP, similar in design but not the same visuals. When @EPICALLL flagged the difficulty issue, I was happy to change it on this basis. 

 

 

 

You've suggested making the first section more consistent with the original, then making the latter section less consistent. The original has an almost entirely flat ceiling without stalactites. 

 

 

The only remaining issue is the arrows. I think it's an amusing reference to the original which is perhaps the most well-known floor arrow outside of the official WADS? It's not supposed to be taken seriously, that's why there are so many of them. 

 

 

 

Maybe yes, but that doesn't negate the poor design (mostly texturing) of the starting location.

And regarding the fact that the flat ceiling was in the original. The project is a remake, which means a direct improvement in the visual design of the map itself. Absolutely flat ceilings and floors often referred to the weak quality (and in the 90'-00's it was a kind of restriction on the amount of detail, which today we do not have).Otherwise, then the remake makes no sense.

[tsocheff]

here's a screenshot of the starting room

[EPICALLL]

6 minutes ago, stupid (tsocheff) said:

here's a screenshot of the starting room

O_O

 

It's... Perfect.

[tsocheff]

thank you

1 hour ago, EPICALLL said:

O_O

 

It's... Perfect.

 

[EPICALLL]

11 hours ago, DRON12261 said:

Maybe yes, but that doesn't negate the poor design (mostly texturing) of the starting location.

And regarding the fact that the flat ceiling was in the original. The project is a remake, which means a direct improvement in the visual design of the map itself. Absolutely flat ceilings and floors often referred to the weak quality (and in the 90'-00's it was a kind of restriction on the amount of detail, which today we do not have).Otherwise, then the remake makes no sense.

Also, I'd like to point out the OP;

"2. The Map must be similar (but not the same as the map preceding it) in design (not including visuals), length, and difficulty to the map it's made after."

Uhh... Similar ≠ The Exact F****** Same

[DRON12261]

1 hour ago, EPICALLL said:

Also, I'd like to point out the OP;

"2. The Map must be similar (but not the same as the map preceding it) in design (not including visuals), length, and difficulty to the map it's made after."

Uhh... Similar ≠ The Exact F****** Same

 

I did not talk about Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V. The project is a remake, the locations must resemble the original in spirit. In this case, there is almost nothing from the original starting half of the level.

Is this exactly a remake of the scythe? Or the word entered the project by mistake and it's still just a separate work based on the scythe? I think the project should conform to its high-profile name. If it is in fact as such a remake will not be, it makes sense to change the name to a less loud and not misleading. Scythe is not a no-name project. And if it really is a remake, there must be good quality control.

This is an important point, which is worth determining in advance for the project, so as not to break things in the future.

[Heretic926]

The more I see these discussions, the more I am inclined to believe that AD_79 is right. It becomes clear to me that project management is becoming increasingly chaotic. So we gotta address this issues.

 

Quote

"The map must be similar (but not the same as the map preceding it) in design (not including visuals), length, and difficulty to the map it's made after."

This is the main problem. Scythe 1 is megawad made out of basically speedmaps (except maybe two last maps, obviously Erik spent a little bit more time on these), so restricting mappers to make basically the same layout - with same progression, runtime and difficulty - is an alienating decision for that kind of project. Remake is about improving the original, and not just making it more visually appealing. The latter is called a remaster, I believe. If this CP is about making maps not visually boring - then it should've been called a remaster, though I think that anybody would be even less interested in the project than now.

 

If we want to keep this project going, rules should be heavily reworked, if not completely rewritten. It's the least we can do. IMHO, it would be more helpful to invite more experienced mapper(s) to lead the project.

[DRON12261]

I insist that in this case, the project must at least:
- Reproduce all the key points of the maps, it is possible in their own way, it is imperative that these places would be well recognized. It is also allowed to expand the new zones and here you can allow certain innovations, but that they were strictly in the style of the main map and not one step away from it.
- Improve the visual design and balance of battles, in general, to ensure that the project kept the bar high quality from map to map, without "swinging". It is already necessary to introduce a new standard of quality, it would be very rash to allow the detail of the early 00's years.
- Maybe give mappers the opportunity to use third-party textures (eg from 32in24-15_tex), but with strict control over the result, so that when using new textures does not lose the spirit of the original map. But this point still needs to be carefully considered before making this decision.

 

You can not just decide to do a remake of a well-known project from nothing. The fact that the word Scythe appears in the name of this project automatically imposes on all participants in the project a certain area of responsibility and obligations, which in this regard, everyone must comply. Otherwise it will be nothing but an impudent parasitizing on the work of another author, who himself has achieved the significance of his name, in our case it is Erik Alm, not the last man in the doom community. If it were your own project, not based on anything else, that would be a completely different conversation, I wouldn't say a word about it. But in the Scythe project, you can't let things run their course - there must be strict quality control for absolutely everyone involved, with no exceptions.
 

Edited April 25, 2023 by DRON12261

[EPICALLL]

43 minutes ago, Heretic926 said:

If we want to keep this project going, rules should be heavily reworked, if not completely rewritten. It's the least we can do. IMHO, it would be more helpful to invite more experienced mapper(s) to lead the project.

I feel like the problem is exactly that, change. Because it seems to me that not everybody agrees with the changes, which makes it very difficult to find anything to change, not to mention that changing the OP would scramble the purpose of the 10 maps (2 complete, 1 revising, 7 pending). However, I think there's one thing I can confidently say; I do care about visuals, but not nearly to the point of it being the main focus. I forgot who it was that said this, but someone proposed the idea of Scythe 2 in spirit, Scythe 1 In design, which is definitely something I would like to push. However, with that being said... I ask everybody who is even the smallest bit active in this thread this question;

What do I change?

I will put a quality control on in saying that I won't accept a map unless if for one, it meets the criteria, and I do like to point out that @DRON12261 said pretty much exactly what I meant in the OP better than I ever did in saying... quote;

14 minutes ago, DRON12261 said:

I insist that in this case, the project must at least:
- Reproduce all the key points of the maps, it is possible in their own way, it is imperative that these places would be well recognized. It is also allowed to expand the new zones and here you can allow certain innovations, but that they were strictly in the style of the main map and not one step away from it.
- Improve the visual design and balance of battles, in general, to ensure that the project kept the bar high quality from map to map, without "swinging".

Good job, dude.

And two, again what he said... The quality must be pretty high. I, or anyone else for that matter shouldn't be able to point out any glaring flaw upon a first look at the map. Say... E2M3, glaring flaw being that the map is butt ugly. Not to mention the rather uncomfortable combat and strange progression. What I consider a good map is a map that gets it's point across, and at the very least sticks in my memory for a good reason. What I consider a great map is a map that actually makes me think about it when it's over, like misri halek or mucus flow for that matter. I'm not going to pretend that my standards are the best standards... I think we've all collectively made it abundantly clear that the answer is no. Regardless of that being said, if you have a better way to write the OP, then throw it at me, I'll at the very least deeply consider that.

Edited April 25, 2023 by EPICALLL

[DRON12261]

10 minutes ago, EPICALLL said:

What do I change?

 

The best way to convey everyone's desired level of detail is to provide an example as a pair of finished maps. It is impossible to make this point with words.

 

Before start mapping, a new member must go through a demo level and use it as a kind of reference.

 

We already have a good example of a pretty good level of detail, this map by @Heretic926. In addition, I will finish my map in early May, now in terms of geometry and lighting it is ready for 50-60%. If you don't mind, I can later (as soon as I get home from work) go into a bit more detail on some points and tips for map design, which then can be included in the topic header

[EPICALLL]

5 minutes ago, DRON12261 said:

 

The best way to convey everyone's desired level of detail is to provide an example as a pair of finished maps. It is impossible to make this point with words.

 

Before start mapping, a new member must go through a demo level and use it as a kind of reference.

 

We already have a good example of a pretty good level of detail, this map by @Heretic926. In addition, I will finish my map in early May, now in terms of geometry and lighting it is ready for 50-60%. If you don't mind, I can later (as soon as I get home from work) go into a bit more detail on some points and tips for map design, which then can be included in the topic header

Go right ahead. Floor's yours.

[RastaManGames]

I want to try and take MAP04: "Lost Warehouse", but don't expect from me something unreal, please.

[RichardDS90]

1 hour ago, EPICALLL said:

I forgot who it was that said this, but someone proposed the idea of Scythe 2 in spirit, Scythe 1 In design, which is definitely something I would like to push. However, with that being said... I ask everybody who is even the smallest bit active in this thread this question;

What do I change?

 

Not sure if you were referring to me or the person that posted above me that also said it. But personally. I would say go for Scythe 2's episode system, so there is a new theme every 5 maps but keeping the themes similar to what Scythe 1 had, such as UAC base for 1, underground for 2, hellish base for 3, future for 4, hell for 5 and the fire and ice system including a city for the final. All while keeping some references to the maps they're based on.

Edited April 25, 2023 by RichardDS90

[EPICALLL]

3 hours ago, RastaManGames said:

I want to try and take MAP04: "Lost Warehouse", but don't expect from me something unreal, please.

You're in, RastaMan. And also, did NOT expect to see you here, but it's a welcome surprise.

[DRON12261]

4 hours ago, EPICALLL said:

Go right ahead. Floor's yours.

Sorry, I won't be able to send you the info today, probably by the weekend. Today and the next three days will be extremely busy for me so far.

I'll try to finish the geometry and lighting of the map this weekend, but without combat. And I will drop this version off to serve as a reference for the mapper. And also attach a number of notes and comments on certain points to be considered.

Edited April 25, 2023 by DRON12261

[EPICALLL]

3 hours ago, RichardDS90 said:

Not sure if you were referring to me or the person that posted above me that also said it. But personally. I would say go for Scythe 2's episode system, so there is a new theme every 5 maps but keeping the themes similar to what Scythe 1 had, such as UAC base for 1, underground for 2, hellish base for 3, future for 4, hell for 5 and the fire and ice system including a city for the final. All while keeping some references to the maps they're based on.

Sort of... I think we should still follow a more Scythe 1 style episode system, as straying even further from the source material might not do this project all to well... However, maybe a more gradual thematic transition would work.

 

I was referring to whoever said that the combat design and level progression should more resemble Scythe 2... yknow?

[EPICALLL]

1 minute ago, DRON12261 said:

Sorry, I won't be able to send you the info today, probably by the weekend. Today and the next three days will be extremely busy for me so far.

I'll try to finish the geometry and lighting of the map this weekend, but without combat. And drop this version off to serve as a reference for the mapper. And also attach a number of notes and comments on certain points to be considered.

Sounds good, dude. Work > Hobbies

[DRON12261]

3 hours ago, RichardDS90 said:

Not sure if you were referring to me or the person that posted above me that also said it. But personally. I would say go for Scythe 2's episode system, so there is a new theme every 5 maps but keeping the themes similar to what Scythe 1 had, such as UAC base for 1, underground for 2, hellish base for 3, future for 4, hell for 5 and the fire and ice system including a city for the final. All while keeping some references to the maps they're based on.

The first Scythe has a definite breakdown into sub-episodes as it is. In addition, changing the setting and theme would be a radical departure from the source material, which is already against the requirements.

Edited April 25, 2023 by DRON12261

[Heretic926]

1 minute ago, EPICALLL said:

Sort of... I think we should still follow a more Scythe 1 style episode system, as straying even further from the source material might not do this project all to well... However, maybe a more gradual thematic transition would work.

 

I was referring to whoever said that the combat design and level progression should more resemble Scythe 2... yknow?

I said that. Technically Scythe consists of three episodes (each one consists of 10 levels) that has that gradual difficulty curve: first one is relatively easy, second is challenging but fair and third one is the hardest. So we don't really need to stray further from that.

[EPICALLL]

10 minutes ago, Heretic926 said:

I said that. Technically Scythe consists of three episodes (each one consists of 10 levels) that has that gradual difficulty curve: first one is relatively easy, second is challenging but fair and third one is the hardest. So we don't really need to stray further from that.

Indeed.

[RichardDS90]

37 minutes ago, EPICALLL said:

Sort of... I think we should still follow a more Scythe 1 style episode system, as straying even further from the source material might not do this project all to well... However, maybe a more gradual thematic transition would work.

 

I was referring to whoever said that the combat design and level progression should more resemble Scythe 2... yknow?

Ahhhh I'm with you now, yeah, I defintely would love the sound of that to be fair.

[RonLivingston]

Ah yes, Scythe, This is my favorite mod just like Scythe 2 and Fragport, I can't wait to see this mod resharpened!

[RastaManGames]

Oh, this map is definitely something, I must say.
Here is a basic layout that was made from scratch.

Not a copy/paste, but something close to original, I hope...

 

Spoiler

Gonna add more details here & there along with crates, since it is a "Lost Warehouse".

[EPICALLL]

50 minutes ago, RastaManGames said:

Oh, this map is definitely something, I must say.
Here is a basic layout that was made from scratch.

Not a copy/paste, but something close to original, I hope...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Gonna add more details here & there along with crates, since it is a "Lost Warehouse".

Looks pretty solid so far.

[A2Rob]

Map Name: Surge Disposal
Author: A2Rob
Enemy Count (without lost souls): 131
Enemy Count (with lost souls): 131
Multiplayer Compatibility: Four Coop Starts / Four Deathmatch Starts
Map Description: That level with the slimy tunnels

[RastaManGames]

First iteration are here...

 

Map Name: "Haunted Warehouse"
Author: @RastaManGames
Enemy Count (without lost souls): 28
Enemy Count (with lost souls): 31
Multiplayer Compatibility: Yes (additional cooperative starts and few deathmatch starts)
Map Description: You have no any intention to stay for too long in this spooky warehouse that has crates with unknown content and other stuff like "Tarzan" painting or bunch of cursed marble pillars. For your bad luck, while trying to reach the way out, you need to encounter some baddies in the dim-lit areas, but you are experienced soldier and nothing can spook you. Or?..
Author's Notes/Hindsight: It was really hard, to be honest. Original map looked like DM level that was turned into SP one. The texturing of some places was kinda boring and two "secrets" wasn't secrets at all. I kinda change these, so they are can be considered as secrets, since player might need to "think" a little in a way to obtain them. As for first iteration, I have all things from original map and few additional ones (like decorations) with intention not to ruin balance of original map. I am just hope that I did not break anything that worked alright at the first place.

 

Comparison:

Spoiler

 

Download V1 (Google.Drive)

 

Additional Credits: @leejacksonaudio for "Warehaus" track.

Edited April 26, 2023 by RastaManGames
V1 -> V2

[DRON12261]

23 minutes ago, RastaManGames said:

First iteration are here...

 

Map Name: "Haunted Warehouse"
Author: @RastaManGames
Enemy Count (without lost souls): 28
Enemy Count (with lost souls): 31
Multiplayer Compatibility: Yes (additional cooperative starts and few deathmatch starts)
Map Description: You have no any intention to stay for too long in this spooky warehouse that has crates with unknown content and other stuff like "Tarzan" painting or bunch of cursed marble pillars. For your bad luck, while trying to reach the way out, you need to encounter some baddies in the dim-lit areas, but you are experienced soldier and nothing can spook you. Or?..
Author's Notes/Hindsight: It was really hard, to be honest. Original map looked like DM level that was turned into SP one. The texturing of some places was kinda boring and two "secrets" wasn't secrets at all. I kinda change these, so they are can be considered as secrets, since player might need to "think" a little in a way to obtain them. As for first iteration, I have all things from original map and few additional ones (like decorations) with intention not to ruin balance of original map. I am just hope that I did not break anything that worked alright at the first place.

 

Comparison:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Download V1 (Google.Drive)

 

Additional Credits: @leejacksonaudio for "Warehaus" track.

 

That's a great result. Perhaps here in some places even too strict adherence to the original, but it does not contradict the requirements in any way. I think that this map can already be put in the header of the topic as a reference map.
 

The only thing I have a couple of small remarks to correct, all of them concern a few moments of lighting:

- This is where you should do the shimmering light, as it was in the original. It was one of the most memorable moments of this map (at least for me).

Spoiler

 

- Here you forgot to tweak the light levels on the barrel and the box.

Spoiler

 

- Overall there are not enough light sources in this room for it to be that bright, maybe you should add lamps.

Spoiler

 

- And it's too bright in this little aisle too, maybe you should add a shadow cast from the open side of the aisle with the lighted room.

Spoiler

Otherwise I don't have any more comments, the map is representative.

[RastaManGames]

I've made few small fixes according to @DRON12261's feedback:

• Now this fancy lamp in the "center" of the map is crazy again. Be careful and try not to be hypnotized by its mesmerizing flashes!
• Fixed wrong light level of some decorations near red keycard.
• Added light sources to red keycard room.
• Tweaked light levels a bit in the computer halls.

Download V2 (Google.Drive)

[DRON12261]

I will see the changes from @RastaManGamesand the map itself from @A2Rob tonight (About 13 hours later), now while I'm at work [bruh].

Edited April 26, 2023 by DRON12261