[Community Project] Scythe: Resharpened

[EPICALLL]

Oh lord

There goes my lunch

[RastaManGames]

@EPICALLL It is OK to claim more than 1 slot? 👀

[DRON12261]

@A2Rob It's a good map. I guess I would single it out as an example of as much departure from the original as possible. It doesn't bring up as much of the original map at first, but as you go through it, you start to notice a number of subtleties that were in the original. I think that's a pretty good approach.
 

The current version of the map has only one very critical problem, which is very easy to solve - you need to place more suits, and preferably in the most poisonous area. It's almost guaranteed to run out of suits before you've completely cleared that location. And the player will be forced to take damage while going through the level, which is a very bad thing in terms of leveldesign.
I think 2-3 extra suits equidistant in the zone itself would be a great solution. One of them should definitely be in the yellow key arena itself.
 

Also, there are points with unaligned textures, they need to be corrected as well. Otherwise good. Amused how you turned one machine gunner from the very end of the original map in a whole influx of "liquidator squad")

Spoiler

 

Regarding a little advice on texture alignment, I'll now duplicate one more of my recent posts below on the subject.


 

Map by @RastaManGames now has a perfect state. The lamp is really hypnotizing.

[EPICALLL]

27 minutes ago, RastaManGames said:

@EPICALLL It is OK to claim more than 1 slot? 👀

Yes, it is

 

I'll check both of your maps when I get home in 3 hours, I'll mark yours (rasta) complete now, as I have no doubt in my mind that I'll like it.

Edited April 26, 2023 by EPICALLL

[RastaManGames]

Just now, EPICALLL said:

Yes, it is

Then I want to try my best with MAP03: "Up And Around"...

[EPICALLL]

1 minute ago, RastaManGames said:

Then I want to try my best with MAP03: "Up And Around"...

Ok then, have at it!

[DRON12261]

Duplicate my post about texture alignment from another thread, take note, perhaps for someone it was not obvious point. In general, the topic of texture alignment is very important in mapping, such a seemingly small detail can greatly affect the perception of your map only in a positive way:

Try to pay more attention to texture alignment, make sure the textures are seamless, don't tear off halfway through, and also don't bend on the corners of the walls, where they probably shouldn't bend after all. Control the alignment of the textures can be additional partitioning linedef on sub-linedef, and have each set the correct alignment, while at the same time making sure that the texture on the splits seem to be looped.

(in the spoiler a small example from my WIP map about texture alignment)

Spoiler

[Heretic926]

@A2Rob Played through your level on UV - good job. Detailing is nicely done, especially I like your work with light. Comparing to the original, the layout is barely recognizable, but in good way; the only thing I remembered in the original was the starting point. Combat is engaging - I like the emphasis on hitscanners, sprinkled with imps, demons and specters here and there. Caco debut near the end is nice, and final ambush with lots of chaingunners is unexpected, but peekaboo-shootable.

 

Noticed couple of things that would be nice to correct:

Spoiler

Misaligned textures here in the right tunnel.

And here near the yellow key trap.

Ladder on the second screenshot has lamp textures in glowing areas, but on first screenshot there's no lamp textures, but light glows anyway?

 

[EPICALLL]

11 minutes ago, DRON12261 said:

(in the spoiler a small example from my WIP map about texture alignment)

  Hide contents

Cool map, man. REALLY cool.

[DRON12261]

29 minutes ago, EPICALLL said:

Cool map, man. REALLY cool.

Thank you. I hope I can get it released in May. The map itself won't be particularly long (I guess I haven't put the combat into it yet), but I've tried to pay a lot of attention to various details and raise the quality bar compared to my last release.
More screenshots (not entirely up to date, though), you can check out in this post.
 

Well, the feedback itself, I think I'll collect it on the release, for here started offtop)

[RastaManGames]

Started to work on layout.

Open area was made a bit wider, since it was a bit too cramped (as for me).

Also half of hallways needs proper texturing, since it seems that walls just was transferred from the outside area.

 

Spoiler

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by RastaManGames

[EPICALLL]

@A2Rob
The problems with your map have already been mentioned, so... Fix those, and I'll consider the map complete.

 

2 hours ago, RastaManGames said:

Started to work on layout.

Open area was made a bit wider, since it was a bit too cramped (as for me).

Also half of hallways needs proper texturing, since it seems that walls just was transferred from the outside area.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Noice area.

[RastaManGames]

Here is my try on MAP03...

 

Map Name: "They Spin Me Right Round"
Author: @RastaManGames
Enemy Count (without lost souls): 43
Enemy Count (with lost souls): There is no lost souls over here.
Multiplayer Compatibility: Yes (additional cooperative starts and few deathmatch starts)
Map Description: What is this area? It might be some old facility where UAC tried to learn more about Hellish beasts, so this is the main reason, why they are locked down containment area. The dim lighting are pressing on my nerves, but my fingers are bored w/o proper shooting to demons. I know that they are here. They are everywhere I go and this place isn't exception to the rules.
Author's Notes/Hindsight: Some of hallways & rooms was very sad in a way of texturing, like author forgot to change these walls to something different than outside area, so I was brave enough to alter few small areas a bit to give them "modernized" look. Encounters are pretty much same as in original, but I only added few more monsters & ammo here & there, so I hope that it is not the level of difficulty like in "Chillax".

 

Comparison:

Spoiler

 

Download V1 (Google.Drive)

 

Additional Credits: @Jimmy for "Slaughterhouse Jive" track.

Edited April 26, 2023 by RastaManGames
V1 -> V2

[EPICALLL]

6 minutes ago, RastaManGames said:

Here is my try on MAP03...

 

Map Name: "They Spin Me Right Round"
Author: @RastaManGames
Enemy Count (without lost souls): 43
Enemy Count (with lost souls): There is no lost souls over here.
Multiplayer Compatibility: Yes (additional cooperative starts and few deathmatch starts)
Map Description: What is this area? It might be some old facility where UAC tried to learn more about Hellish beasts, so this is the main reason, why they are locked down containment area. The dim lighting are pressing on my nerves, but my fingers are bored w/o proper shooting to demons. I know that they are here. They are everywhere I go and this place isn't exception to the rules.
Author's Notes/Hindsight: Some of hallways and rooms was very sad in a way of texturing, like author forgot to change these walls to something different than outside area, so I was brave enough to alter few small areas a bit to give them "modernized" look. Encounters are pretty much same as in original, but I only added few more monsters & ammo here & there, so I hope that it is not the level of difficulty like in "Chillax".

 

Comparison:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Download V1 (Google.Drive)

 

Additional Credits: @Jimmy for "Slaughterhouse Jive" track.

Honestly, I have nothing to complain about. I guess that means that the map's been added, then.
If you want to pick another slot, go right ahead, dude.

[RastaManGames]

A quick fix of entry for MAP03, since there was few mid-textures that bleed out.

Now all is okay and they are bleeding no more...

 

Download V2 (Google.Drive)

[EPICALLL]

1 minute ago, RastaManGames said:

A quick fix of entry for MAP03, since there was few mid-textures that bleed out.

Now all is okay and they are bleeding no more...

 

Download V2 (Google.Drive)

aight then, NOW it's added.

[RastaManGames]

@EPICALLL I want to grab MAP16: "Burial Grounds" by now...

[EPICALLL]

1 minute ago, RastaManGames said:

@EPICALLL I want to grab MAP16: "Burial Grounds" by now...

Burial Grounds, eh? Well then, I'm curious to see what you'll do with this one. Have at ya!

[tsocheff]

after im done with map 23 i wanna do map 13

Edited April 27, 2023 by stupid (tsocheff)

[EPICALLL]

Just now, stupid (tsocheff) said:

after im done with map 23 i wanna do map 13

you are so lucky that the guy who had it left lol

[tsocheff]

 

30 minutes ago, EPICALLL said:

you are so lucky that the guy who had it left lol

i guess im just that cool, people leave because of me

[RastaManGames]

3 hours ago, EPICALLL said:

I'm curious to see what you'll do with this one.

 

For now it isn't that much, since I spent some time on outside area (since it is most difficult for me to make):

Spoiler

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by RastaManGames

[DRON12261]

@RastaManGames This time I couldn't find anything to complain about, heh.
 

Well, while MAP04(RastaManGames) followed too strictly the original, and MAP05(A2Rob) allowed itself to depart from the original as much as possible, but I think still within acceptable limits, this MAP03 is about what I myself would like to see from all the other maps, and I am now making a map in about that vein myself:
 

You recreate the same locations from the map, but kind of differently, in a slightly different your way. You can slightly change the global geometry of the level (resize it, change the layout of paths and rooms a bit, add more new paths and locations (as long as you have the key points of the original map implemented)), but they should still be similar and resemble the original quite well. And of course with raising the bar for quality. RastaManGames this bar has shown: 
- Proper texturing (alignment (a post about tips on this topic I posted a little earlier), selection of a good color scheme and following the original color scheme (this is also very important), there are transitional textures, etc.) 
- Sufficient level of geometric detail, there is no "absolutely flat" rooms, all locations are filled with something, everywhere there are points of interest that may catch the player's attention. If you stop almost anywhere on the map and start looking at it, you can start to see more and more of the seemingly small things, but they all combine to make a good visual.
- Attention is paid to working with lighting, everywhere in his rooms there are both the light sources themselves (lamps, sky, mb some lava at someone, etc.), and the light itself, coming from them. And the light shouldn't come in a single solid sector. At the edges of it should be scattered additional sectors that go all the lower level of brightness, ie lighting gradient (good work with lighting as demonstrated by A2Rob, he had moments when from a lit location under the sky were pits leading into the dark pieces of location, and the light at the bottom of the pit was a nice gradient).
- Corrected errors in the original map. Let's be honest, today Scythe has a huge amount of "flaws" and a few bad decisions, both in terms of balance, and in terms of visual and overall leveldesign. That's why this remake exists. We should not just make maps beautiful, we should make maps good in terms of leveldesign and fix all the shortcomings of the original.
- Good balance. Scythe may have had moments where it was overly easy or overly difficult. These moments (going back to the last point) need to be corrected as well. We need to build a good difficulty curve both within the level itself and within the megawad itself.

@EPICALLL

I believe that it is MAP03 that every mapper should take as a basis, MAP04 is one boundary with maximum adherence to the original, and MAP05 is a second boundary with maximum departure from the original. However, it is not recommended to go to such extremes, and you should rely more on MAP03. And also follow all the text described above.

Edited April 27, 2023 by DRON12261

[EPICALLL]

32 minutes ago, DRON12261 said:

I believe that it is MAP03 that every mapper should take as a basis, MAP04 is one boundary with maximum adherence to the original, and MAP05 is a second boundary with maximum departure from the original. However, it is not recommended to go to such extremes, and you should rely more on MAP03. And also follow all the text described above.

Perfect. I will say, I have a personal preference to something between rob and rasta's designs, but yes. I do agree with this statement, and as such, will now add that to the OP

[Heretic926]

9 hours ago, RastaManGames said:

A quick fix of entry for MAP03, since there was few mid-textures that bleed out.

Now all is okay and they are bleeding no more...

 

Download V2 (Google.Drive)

I have no complaints too. Though getting secret berserk is odd - you have to jump out of the window where the candle was placed? I thought you need to press "use" key on the lights or shoot at them, but realized I was my mistake. I'm dumb sometimes LOL

[RastaManGames]

5 minutes ago, Heretic926 said:

Though getting secret berserk is odd - you have to jump out of the window where the candle was placed?

 

On original map there was only one window and if you are entering the exit area, this windows is closing.

And since berserk is lowering only by going into that window - it can be missed.

 

Yeah, it is not fatal and only UV-maxers gonna suffer, but on my recreation there was three windows and only secret one is marked with candle (since many Doomers considering candles as hint for finding secrets).

Also I got rid of that closing action, since it was kinda useless...

[RastaManGames]

This is V1 of MAP16... Oh, man, I might need some proper rest after this one...

 

Map Name: "Disposal Site"
Author: @RastaManGames
Enemy Count (without lost souls): 52
Enemy Count (with lost souls): There is no lost souls over here too.
Multiplayer Compatibility: Yes (additional cooperative starts and few deathmatch starts)
Map Description: You need to reach out some ancient catacombs, but seems that proper church is not only possibly was taken by hostile forces, but also sealed very hard. You need to find your way thru the area full of awakened spirits and unseal this place that was holy in the past, but now devilish in the present. Beware of greedy wizards that is very dangerous enemies.
Author's Notes/Hindsight: I changed encounters on the graveyard a bit to make it more interesting. Also that "super secret" mega-armor is now really hidden in the secret place. With this I added one "light" secret and one "usual", so you might want to explore this map properly.

 

Comparison:

Spoiler

 

Download V1 (Google.Drive)

 

Additional Credits: @Crunchynut44 for "Brimstone Alley" track.

Edited April 27, 2023 by RastaManGames
V1 -> V2

[DRON12261]

14 minutes ago, RastaManGames said:

This is V1 of MAP16... Oh, man, I might need some proper rest after this one...

 

Map Name: "Disposal Site"
Author: @RastaManGames
Enemy Count (without lost souls): 52
Enemy Count (with lost souls): There is no lost souls over here too.
Multiplayer Compatibility: Yes (additional cooperative starts and few deathmatch starts)
Map Description: You need to reach out some ancient catacombs, but seems that proper church is not only possibly was taken by hostile forces, but also sealed very hard. You need to find your way thru the area full of awakened spirits and unseal this place that was holy in the past, but now devilish in the present. Beware of greedy wizards that is very dangerous enemies.
Author's Notes/Hindsight: I changed encounters on the graveyard a bit to make it more interesting. Also that "super secret" mega-armor is now really hidden in the secret place. With this I added one "light" secret and one "usual", so you might want to explore this map properly.

 

Comparison:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Download V1 (Google.Drive)

 

Additional Credits: @Crunchynut44 for "Brimstone Alley" track.

Three maps in two days. Looks like RastaMan locked himself in the basement and whipped himself for maximum productivity)))))
 

Well, I'll be able to watch it in about three hours.

[EPICALLL]

2 hours ago, RastaManGames said:

This is V1 of MAP16... Oh, man, I might need some proper rest after this one...

 

Map Name: "Disposal Site"
Author: @RastaManGames
Enemy Count (without lost souls): 52
Enemy Count (with lost souls): There is no lost souls over here too.
Multiplayer Compatibility: Yes (additional cooperative starts and few deathmatch starts)
Map Description: You need to reach out some ancient catacombs, but seems that proper church is not only possibly was taken by hostile forces, but also sealed very hard. You need to find your way thru the area full of awakened spirits and unseal this place that was holy in the past, but now devilish in the present. Beware of greedy wizards that is very dangerous enemies.
Author's Notes/Hindsight: I changed encounters on the graveyard a bit to make it more interesting. Also that "super secret" mega-armor is now really hidden in the secret place. With this I added one "light" secret and one "usual", so you might want to explore this map properly.

 

Comparison:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Download V1 (Google.Drive)

 

Additional Credits: @Crunchynut44 for "Brimstone Alley" track.

Since I don't have much to say about the quality of the design, I instead would like to speak about things I liked a lot about the map. (I will say though, maybe swap the positions of the yellow key and teleporter, as I ended up missing the key the first time I took the porter.)

1. The music fits really, really well. I like how it's almost perfectly paced with the level progression, slowly turning from hellish echoes to at the end being a triumphant swan song.

2. The execution of the graves was really cool, I like how they kind of stray from Erik's design, having almost all of them contain enemies of some sort instead of just being graves.

3. The design of the church is really cool, and definitely feels more foreboding than any church Alm ever made.

4. The combat design is great, as just like in the original, it seems to contain a whole bunch of monsters that can't help but infight, which makes for some pretty fun fights.

5. The secrets are well hidden and fun to find, you really hit the sweet spot, here.

Yeah, overall I once again have not much to say about the map, it's just solid through and through. However, I will mark this "Pending Review" right now, as I have to leave for my Trigonometry class in like 15 minutes, which means I won't be able to add it to the WAD file. But if you want to start ANOTHER map, go right ahead, I'll still have the forums open on my phone every other hour.

[DRON12261]

4 hours ago, RastaManGames said:

This is V1 of MAP16... Oh, man, I might need some proper rest after this one...

 

Map Name: "Disposal Site"
Author: @RastaManGames
Enemy Count (without lost souls): 52
Enemy Count (with lost souls): There is no lost souls over here too.
Multiplayer Compatibility: Yes (additional cooperative starts and few deathmatch starts)
Map Description: You need to reach out some ancient catacombs, but seems that proper church is not only possibly was taken by hostile forces, but also sealed very hard. You need to find your way thru the area full of awakened spirits and unseal this place that was holy in the past, but now devilish in the present. Beware of greedy wizards that is very dangerous enemies.
Author's Notes/Hindsight: I changed encounters on the graveyard a bit to make it more interesting. Also that "super secret" mega-armor is now really hidden in the secret place. With this I added one "light" secret and one "usual", so you might want to explore this map properly.

 

Comparison:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Download V1 (Google.Drive)

 

Additional Credits: @Crunchynut44 for "Brimstone Alley" track.

Looks like RastaMan has some weaknesses after all. Or he is just tired (especially after such a rush). There's really a lot of work to be done here.
 

Let's start with the critical "bugs":
- Here you can fall into the grave and get a softlock.

Spoiler

- It looks like you were trying to make deep water, and it broke a little too. You can see how the shore sector breaks off at the edges.

Spoiler

- You should make the passage a little more spacious in height here, the player will constantly bang his forehead against the ceiling as he descends and "pinball" will start in the passage.

Spoiler

Now for the main point. The outdoors section looks more like a mock-up than a finished location. You seem to excel at some locations built by people rather than chaotic locations shaped by "nature" (well, or maybe you're just tired). To the church part with the archvile I have no complaints, it is done in your style. But the outdoors part needs a lot of work, it's not ready:
- It almost repeats the original map in detail (except just with smoother walls). You can actually see this even in the comparison screenshots. It's hard to tell where the original is and where the remake is.
- Poor texturing, there's not much to catch the eye this time, not much detail, the whole screen is occupied by this beige texture of stones.

Spoiler

But at the same time here was an attempt to dilute this monotony:

Spoiler

I think you should take a little break after two days of extreme mapping. And if you suddenly don't want to take the rework afterwards, I could rework these points with your permission (preserving the original authorship of the map, of course). I managed to free up my evening a little tonight.
 

Edited April 27, 2023 by DRON12261