Does anyone else feel like Build games are by design worse than Doom/Quake?

[gipi]

Build engine games in general seem to be built different (no pun intended), I think, because they tried to be realistic, so enemies are more bullet spongy, and mostly hitscan, and to top it off, environments are often tighter and more cluttered. Quake had basically empty rooms for the most part, with lots of room to maneuver, and while having a lot spongier enemies it had no hitscans so the gameplay loop is entirely different. No amount of one-liners (which are, admittedly, awesome) can change that. And the keycards are lot harder to spot! Especially in Redneck Rampage.

No one seems to point this out, they're just bungled together as le "old school boomer shooters", especially now with the new Build craze.

[Biodegradable]

Given the many different kinds of design philosophies, dev teams, goals, themes and levels of success/execution behind all the different games we know made with Build past and present; I feel like you're speaking a bit too broadly here in regards to Build engine games alone, regardless of how they compare to their predecessors Doom and Quake. It's unfair and pretty silly to try and lump all Build games together and paint them with such a broad brush.

 

The mere fact that Blood and Redneck Rampage for example happened to be made using the same engine is not much of a comparison when contrasted with, well, literally every aspect of both games. Hell, it's even unfair to compare the two of them in general given how the former is one of most beloved 90s shooters ever conceived while the latter is a fetid pile of hot wet garbage that people only think of as a joke. Regardless, those two alone are like chalk and cheese and the fact they were both made with Build feels rather trivial at best.

[PinkFlamingo]

For me, the biggest difference between Build and Doom engine games is enemy behavior. In Doom, enemies 'wake up' when they hear a sound and start actively hunting down the player. In Build, enemies are always static until they 'see' the player. This is super obvious for the player, as enemies often take a full second to react. After some time, Build enemies also 'go asleep' again: they stop moving until the player re-appears in their line of sight. Doom enemies, however, keep moving around forever. This makes a huge difference in the style of gameplay between both engines (much more than hitscan vs projectile). Gameplay in Doom games simply feels more dynamic, evolving, while in Build games it feels much more static and all about pre-planned scripted encounters.

 

Another big difference is that monsters in Build games don't infight, and I believe they can also just walk through eachother, making slaughter maps somewhat underwhelming.

 

As a mapper, I actually love the Build engine more than the (classic) Doom engine: you can have room-over-rooms, slopes, you can use the same textures on walls, floors, ceilings, even as sprites to create fake bridges. You can create exploding walls, breakable windows, moving sectors, colored sectors. Basically all the stuff modern UDMF does now, except in Build you could already do it in 1996. If only enemy behavior was more like Doom :-/

[Rudolph]

@gipi Yeah, I have always struggled with Build games myself too. 

 

Another flaw that you did not mention is the increased verticality of games like Duke Nukem 3D and Shadow Warrior 1997 combined with the paper-thin sprite-based enemies can make some fights unecessarily frustrating. Even Ion Fury has failed to completely address it: for some reason, despite introducing a voxel-based enemy like the Deacon, it still features annoying flying sprite-based enemies like the Bony Whoop and, last I checked, the Ion Bow weapon has some weird hardcoded auto-aim that prevents shooting at certain angles.

 

Even GZDoom with mouselook on plays better than them in my opinion. It is really odd.

[CoolerDoomeR]

The biggest difference is Quake is newer and it is 3D but Doom/Other build engine are older and are kinda 2.5D.

But another difference I can feel in Build Engine games is they feel clunky but Doom engine is kinda choppy.

But I still love Redneck Rampage, It is still one of my favorite games from 90s era.

[leejacksonaudio]

...then again, I've heard there's something to be said about the music in a couple of the Build engine games, namely Duke Nukem 3D and Shadow Warrior... <evil grin>

[Individualised]

It's a game engine. It's unfair to paint all Build games in the same light when most of them had nothing to do with each other.

 

Quake's strong enemies but little amount of them was a compromise made for performance. When PCs started being able to handle rendering more at once games started to reintroduce having more enemies in a smaller space but they didn't turn the difficulty down. See Half-Life, which runs on the Quake engine. In other words, Quake would have had the same thing if it wasn't for technical reasons.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Individualised

[BGreener]

That trio of 90s build shooters may have some of my favorite level design and progression from that era for an FPS. Combat may not be as tight as IdSoft standards but it’s still fast and satisfying across all three of them, there’s quick switches and plenty of options to reduce various healthbar sizes, and quality weapon animations through-out. The music helps establish a wonderful mood, big awesome kudos to @leejacksonaudio for most of it. There’s plenty of port options for them as well.

 

Despite posting some cool shots of Redneck Rampage awhile ago, I’ve still yet to finish it. There’s also Ion Fury which is particularly fun and high-quality.

 

Also: While the one-liners can be fun, for me it’s been all about the explosions. So many things explode in these Build games.

Edited April 11, 2023 by BGreener

[Rudolph]

48 minutes ago, leejacksonaudio said:

...then again, I've heard there's something to be said about the music in a couple of the Build engine games, namely Duke Nukem 3D and Shadow Warrior... <evil grin>

Yeah, it is a shame that you never got to fully score a Doom game, unlike Bobby Prince. :(

[Professor Hastig]

The main difference is that Quake was more about the new technology while most of the Build games focussed more on the content.

So whatever you deem more important will inevitably decide which one may think is better.

 

I am definitely more of a content guy, and as a game Quake was a bit too much on the simple side for me, better engine tech nonwithstanding.

 

 

 

[Rudolph]

5 minutes ago, Professor Hastig said:

I am definitely more of a content guy, and as a game Quake was a bit too much on the simple side for me, better engine tech nonwithstanding.

Even with the expansion packs?

[Professor Hastig]

Duke's expansion packs were better than Quake's. :P

 

It doesn't really change how I feel about the game. If it had had more techbases and less gothic castles it may have fared better but at the end of the day I really prefer the Build games - at least the 4 big ones - over Quake. The entire level design just appeals more to my tastes.

 

 

[Rudolph]

18 minutes ago, Professor Hastig said:

Duke's expansion packs were better than Quake's. :P

Even Nuclear Winter? :x

 

I brought up the Quake expansions as they introduced more content, including new enemies and weapons.

[Guff dotD]

1 hour ago, Professor Hastig said:

Duke's expansion packs were better than Quake's. :P

Honestly, IMO, Duke's Expansions are somewhat hit-and-miss (specifically Duke it out in D.C.)

Quake's expansions are nothing groundbreaking, but IMO are a much more consistent experience.

Not to mention, but many Build mappers worked on Scourge of Armagon (Levelord comes to mind).

But the best of Duke3D's expansions are really good, especially the Caribbean one.

47 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

I brought up the Quake expansions as they introduced more content, including new enemies and weapons.

The Caribbean expansion has a whole lot more content (all new textures, weapon and enemy graphics) than SoA or DoE.

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, Guff dotD said:

The Caribbean expansion has a whole lot more content (all new textures, weapon and enemy graphics) than SoA or DoE.

Does it? All I remember is just tropical-themed reskins of vanilla assets.

 

It is nothing like Quake expansions introducing entirely new weapons, enemies/bosses and items.

[Majin]

yeah

[Mr. Freeze]

Build games are worse than Doom/Quake because Doom/Quake are the kings of the hill. 

[Koko Ricky]

I've been playing through Blood again and everything about it is awesome. I love how the levels seem big and complex; and yet, the running speed is insane, and the layouts are easy to follow. I can start the same map over and over, slowly mastering it until I can power through it without saving. Never once needed a walk-through, though some of the secrets are especially cryptic. 

 

Now, Redneck Rampage? What a pile of shit, in terms of layout and combat. The unique setting, strong art direction, and infectious sense of humor are all negated by maps that are bland, confusing and barren feeling; meanwhile, gunplay never feels right, there's not enough enemy types, and collision detection is super wonky. 

 

Build isn't the best 2.5d engine; it's a bit unstable, overlapping sectors can be glitchy, and its flexibility is dwarfed by UDMF. However, it's a well-crafted engine that unfortunately was used in several underwhelming titles. Anyone remember NAM?

[LadyMistDragon]

I mean, kind of? Action has better flow in Doom/Quake, but I'm not sure it can really be said that the maps necessarily have worst design. They were some of the first to balance realism with playable spaces and in that aspect, they might be just as well designed. Once again, Duke 3D's E2 is one of the best examples of 3D Realms' design philosophy consequently having far less to fall back on, due to the weaknesses of most maps being dark and cramped. 

[gipi]

@Biodegradable @Individualised I apologize for the misunderstanding, I of course didn't mean to say that all Build games are the same, or that they are bad (of course they aren't), I only wanted to point out some shared flaws between them which I believe are due to the engine. And yeah, it is due to technical limitations, but considering where we are right now in terms of tech, we can evaluate these games with respect to gameplay only. 

 

 

[Spooner5020]

3 hours ago, Professor Hastig said:

Duke's expansion packs were better than Quake's. :P

 

It doesn't really change how I feel about the game. If it had had more techbases and less gothic castles it may have fared better but at the end of the day I really prefer the Build games - at least the 4 big ones - over Quake. The entire level design just appeals more to my tastes.

 

 

Quake had expansions that were practically new games. Malice and X-men.

[Ludi]

2 hours ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Build games are worse than Doom/Quake because Doom/Quake are the kings of the hill. 

 

Blood being the exception, the build games just don't have that rock-solid foundation that Doom and Quake have. Build games feel like they'll fall apart if I sneeze in their direction, whereas the Id games feel like they'll never break from under you. 

[Fiber Wire]

I don't think BUILD games are "by design worse than" Doom or Quake. They're just different FPS games and not by Id Software.

 

It seems the fact that the editor requires you to remember key bindings has turned so many people away from the engine because it isn't a carbon copy of Doombuilder. I think these same people would have struggled in the early days of Doom level editing, too. At least BUILD always had a 3D map view.

[LadyMistDragon]

17 minutes ago, Ludi said:

 

Blood being the exception, the build games just don't have that rock-solid foundation that Doom and Quake have. Build games feel like they'll fall apart if I sneeze in their direction, whereas the Id games feel like they'll never break from under you. 

Couldn't have said it better myself! Actually, I don't think anyone could've!

[Koko Ricky]

2 hours ago, Ludi said:

 

Blood being the exception, the build games just don't have that rock-solid foundation that Doom and Quake have. Build games feel like they'll fall apart if I sneeze in their direction, whereas the Id games feel like they'll never break from under you. 

I first realized this when I saw a video demonstrating how easy it was to break Duke 3D. With a few simple moves the geometry just fell apart. I guess it's not surprising considering the engine was developed almost entirely by one person. 

[Rykzeon]

Those games are just fun. Though sometimes I don't like certain parts of those games, it is still fun.

^{Note: I mean BUILD Engine games are Blood, Shadow Warrior, and Duke Nukem 3D. Redneck Rampage and NAM is still decent in certain parts (such as graphics and sound effect, but I had problem with some of RR's map progression and overall difficulty in NAM). Witchaven just sucks.}

[mrthejoshmon]

The issue with build, as stated by others already, is that it is a complete jank fest.

For instance, most doors that are "hinged" (pushed open) from one side can, if stood on top of, nuke the entire map's geometry (E4L1 has a pretty good one) by opening them the wrong way:

 

 

And jumping and crouching at just the right time can be used to bypass incredibly small gaps (sorry for the link to fucking Fandom, no actual independent Duke wiki exists). 

 

Build is just barely functioning at most times and is quite jank, so that's probably why Doom feels better. Personally I love Build and have gone out of my way to play all Build games (Yes, a lot of them are total garbage, like Witchaven 2 and NAM, especially NAM).

Also not to mention the newest and only* version of Duke, the 20th anniversary edition, adds even more bugs and irons out literally no pre-existing bugs.

^{* you can buy Atomic Edition on Zoom, the preferable option}

Edited April 11, 2023 by mrthejoshmon

[Ludi]

Another thing, Doom just doesn't have much that can be fucked up. The features that make Build more "advanced" end up knee-capping it's stability.

[Nevander]

8 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said:

(video)

Him just casually turning around to blow up one single assault trooper is the funniest thing I've seen in a while

Edited April 12, 2023 by Nevander

[ReaperAA]

19 hours ago, Professor Hastig said:

Duke's expansion packs were better than Quake's. :P

 

I can disagree with that. I actually like vanilla Duke3D's maps over vanilla Quake's maps. But Quake's expansions are much better than Duke's expansions. Duke Carribean is alright I guess (though I am not into the reskins much), Duke DC's maps are too long and sloggy (looking at you Smithsonian Terror) and lets not speak about Nuclear Winter.

 

In contrast, I like Scourge of Armagon even more than vanilla Quake, and Dissolution of Eternity is also pretty solid.

Edited April 12, 2023 by ReaperAA