Does anyone else feel like Build games are by design worse than Doom/Quake?

[Kinsie]

4 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Were all those issues addressed with Build 2.0 used for Ion Fury?

Ion Fury is literally just EDuke32, with everything that implies. Check out the CON files if you feel like staring directly into the face of madness!

[Rudolph]

8 minutes ago, Kinsie said:

Ion Fury is literally just EDuke32, with everything that implies. Check out the CON files if you feel like staring directly into the face of madness!

Oh? I remember the game being sold as running on Build 2.0.

 

So basically, that was some marketing bullshit and Ion Fury retains all the flaws of its predecessors?

Edited April 14, 2023 by Rudolph

[Gez]

4 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

So basically, that was some marketing bullshit and Ion Fury retains all the flaws of its predecessors?

It's kind of like saying a GZDoom-powered game like, say, Selaco for example, is running on the Doom engine 2.0.

 

EDuke32 is still an advanced port with a lot of extra features. But I think only Ken Silverman could rightfully call something "Build 2.0".

[Rudolph]

Ah, so I must be misremembering things then... Either that or the author of whatever gave me that impression was mistaken themself.

[Individualised]

19 minutes ago, Gez said:

It's kind of like saying a GZDoom-powered game like, say, Selaco for example, is running on the Doom engine 2.0.

 

EDuke32 is still an advanced port with a lot of extra features. But I think only Ken Silverman could rightfully call something "Build 2.0".

In fact, he did: http://advsys.net/ken/buildsrc/build2.htm

[BGreener]

4 hours ago, TasAcri said:

Sure, you are supposed to be on a Mars base but honestly, i wouldn't know. The maps look too abstract and don't really try to be realistic, they just try to be good maps. Same with Quake. I don't even know what these maps are supposed to be, i don't care about lore. But they are amazing maps to play through. They don't have to make sense or follow any construction rules. They just have to look nice and play well.

To emphasize your point, the first episode of the game is supposed to take place on one of Mars’ moons - one of which apparently has an atmosphere I guess? It’s a fun contrast to some of Duke3D’s second episode, which has a level that very clearly takes place on our moon. (It’s also a great level with a nearly perfect mood, it’s called “Dark Side”; it and “Spaceport” are my favorite E2 levels.)

[3ryuki.l]

Unity Games on those unblocked school sites they are not even good ripoffs

[Rudolph]

10 minutes ago, Individualised said:

In fact, he did: http://advsys.net/ken/buildsrc/build2.htm

Oh! That is interesting.

 

I take it the engine was not used for any games, however?

[Individualised]

2 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Oh! That is interesting.

 

I take it the engine was not used for any games, however?

No unfortunately. It was dated by the time of it's release (I believe his first attempt to make a Quake-style engine was in 1994 - 2 years before Quake may I add - and again in 1998 but it was put on the back burner both times)

Edited April 14, 2023 by Individualised

[3ryuki.l]

@Individualised 

Gen-z's will never know the feeling of waiting for Star Craft Or Quake To Slowly Boot Up

[Individualised]

And this is relevant to my posts... how?

[Rudolph]

6 minutes ago, 3ryuki.l said:

@Individualised 

Gen-z's will never know the feeling of waiting for Star Craft Or Quake To Slowly Boot Up

I got StarCraft in 1998 but I do not remember it taking long to launch.

[3ryuki.l]

i probally just had a trash pc 

 

I Had AN Old Imac G3

[Graf Zahl]

24 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Oh! That is interesting.

 

I take it the engine was not used for any games, however?

 

The engine was just as deeply flawed as the original Build, i.e. horrible code design that probably hid lots of serious problems that were never found because it was so dated already.

 

[Individualised]

On 4/11/2023 at 11:12 PM, mrthejoshmon said:

The issue with build, as stated by others already, is that it is a complete jank fest.

For instance, most doors that are "hinged" (pushed open) from one side can, if stood on top of, nuke the entire map's geometry (E4L1 has a pretty good one) by opening them the wrong way:

 

 

And jumping and crouching at just the right time can be used to bypass incredibly small gaps (sorry for the link to fucking Fandom, no actual independent Duke wiki exists). 

 

Build is just barely functioning at most times and is quite jank, so that's probably why Doom feels better. Personally I love Build and have gone out of my way to play all Build games (Yes, a lot of them are total garbage, like Witchaven 2 and NAM, especially NAM).

Also not to mention the newest and only* version of Duke, the 20th anniversary edition, adds even more bugs and irons out literally no pre-existing bugs.

^{* you can buy Atomic Edition on Zoom, the preferable option}

What causes this I wonder?

[MrFlibble]

1 hour ago, Rudolph said:

I got StarCraft in 1998 but I do not remember it taking long to launch.

It certainly took a little while to launch. I had a really slow-ish PC back then (it was originally a 386 upgraded several times to a Pentium 75, with some parts like the video card still chugging along from the 386 days), and I remember that sometime later I found out that Blizzard had put in certain optimizations for low-spec machines, which would reduce the number of frames for some units and alter some animations and the like. It would also spell "loading" in lowercase on the title screen in this mode. When I got a new PC, StarCraft would load significantly faster, and you could still briefly see "Loading" capitalized as the optimizations were no longer necessary.

 

Anyway, I'm a big fan of Build games and of Duke Nukem 3D in particular. It was mind-blowing both when it came out, and when I actually got to play it -- it just so happened that I got introduced to the shareware versions of both Doom and DN3D at the same time, sometime in the late 1990s in our IT class at school. I find the levels very engaging, perhaps because I'm more tilted towards exploration when it comes to playing FPS games. It is not to say that Doom games do not encourage exploration, I had a lot of fun poking for secrets in the levels too (was very proud to have found the secret exit in E1M3 on my own), but it's, in a way, on a different level so to speak. I mean, you won't find any Easter eggs in Doom's E1 for example, or even a secret room that looks drastically different to your typical surroundings, and the techbase theme is becoming a little bit repetitive. And Duke3D had this feeling of being there, with all the details and interactivity. It also felt like moving along a consistent story with a little more meaning to it than just Doomguy rampaging through various Mars bases.

 

From my own experience, I wouldn't chalk too much to the engine's credit though, as I greatly enjoyed HacX when I discovered it, and I'd say it was likely precisely because it, while running on the Doom engine, seems to take a lot of cues from Duke Nukem 3D and the other big Build engine titles.

 

While we're at it, I'd argue that apart from the "big three" and Ion Fury (unless you exclude it for being a new thing), Powerslave is a noteworthy Build title, being somewhere in-between Doom (so far that I'd call it one of the few "true" Doom clones) and the more fleshed out games which came out from under the 3D Realms' wing. I'm not sure if this was an intentional design choice or somehow dictated by the engine's internal workings, but Powerslave, too, leans towards exploration-oriented gameplay with sprawling levels, as opposed to more tight spaces with dense encounters, and never really boils down to the shoot shoot shoot, next room routine. Maybe it's because the designers would set different tasks for the player to progress: here, you need to swim underwater for a bit; there, jump around platforms floating in lava; elsewhere, flip switches and carefully navigate around fireball traps; etc. etc.

 

I will agree that none of the Build engine games seem to feature such large hordes of enemies one can find in the Doom levels. I'm not sure how much the tech itself played a part, or if it's just that Doom would slowly evolve in the direction of massive fights, and back in 1995-96 anyone imitating it would not think of this particular gameplay aspect as the defining trait. I can only tell that back when I just started playing both, similarities between the two games, such as the player's arsenal, the keycards and the enemies' roles, were more obvious to me than the differences, apart from the different setting/theme of course. Somehow, it felt natural that in the more "realistic" environments of Duke3D, enemies would be placed differently compared to Doom, with the latter being more straightforward so to speak, while in Duke you can also try sneaking up on the aliens by crawling vents, using cameras to have a glimpse of their position, or using your environment such as getting an advance warning of an ambush thanks to the bathroom mirror in E1L1. I believe that this, too, encourages a different approach to combat as well.

[Rudolph]

30 minutes ago, MrFlibble said:

It certainly took a little while to launch. I had a really slow-ish PC back then (it was originally a 386 upgraded several times to a Pentium 75, with some parts like the video card still chugging along from the 386 days), and I remember that sometime later I found out that Blizzard had put in certain optimizations for low-spec machines, which would reduce the number of frames for some units and alter some animations and the like. It would also spell "loading" in lowercase on the title screen in this mode. When I got a new PC, StarCraft would load significantly faster, and you could still briefly see "Loading" capitalized as the optimizations were no longer necessary.

I have no recollection of such thing, even though I did have a few technical difficulties with the game. Then again, it was only when I got MechWarrior 4: Vengeance that I started paying attention to configuration requirements, as that one would barely run on my computer.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Rudolph

[Graf Zahl]

18 hours ago, Individualised said:

What causes this I wonder?

 

I once discovered a problem with Duke's setup that the sector effector sprites moving these doors and other items get moved along with the item they move. But due to Build's low precision coordinate system it can happen that they get moved out of the sector they control - and then they wreak havoc all over the map. In Raze I addressed this by not changing their sector because even in the best circumstances it is pointless to do so.

 

[Koko Ricky]

That's a very odd way to move sectors. Was there just not a better solution for moving them in the mid 90s?

Edited April 15, 2023 by Koko Ricky

[Graf Zahl]

There surely would have been better ways, but you must not forget that the Duke developers never got the Build engine source code - they had to work around all the poor design in there.

 

[Koko Ricky]

Wait...Apogee didn't have the source to the engine they were using? How could they purchase the license and not have source access? 

[Redneckerz]

For all the shit Build has gotten, it also got us The AMC Squad. Probably one of the most ambitious games ever in terms of content to grace this planet.

In fact it is so chokeful on content they actually had to create a custom EDuke32 fork to get things going (AMCDuke32), raising engine limits and what not.

• 6 Episodes are planned
• Each episode is basically a game worth of content
• Sci-fi, real-world and even medieval themes
• Hilarious voice acting
• Its Yhugeee
• Also on Itch.io

 

Blurb:

Spoiler

The AMC Squad is a paramilitary group formed by a man whose identity is unknown to all but a select few in the EDF and EAF. Using funds from both agencies, he hired an old friend to track down 7 of the best and most skilled fighters in the Solar System, after the disappearance of Earth's greatest hero. This squad was formed to tackle the most severe threats to Earth's safety, including fighting off the notorious Cycloid race of aliens. However, they inadvertently set into motion a sequence of events that dramatically increase the scale of conflict, and they must soon deal with a threat that is new to even the most supernatural members of the team.

Can you fight as the AMC Squad, and take care of this threat? Will you scour the battlefield, find and acquire research and equipment and tackle the threat strategically, or simply run in guns blazing? Will you choose to play as Sangluss, a warlock with great power who overcame a dark past? Or as Merlijn, a knight from Holland who wields ancient weaponry to deadly effect? As Mikko, the cybernetic leader of MS Corp industries, who brings a range of deadly and hi-tech weaponry to the battlefield? Or as Highwire, who relies only on his good old-fashioned military rifles, and a trusty bottle of Vodka?
 

Features:

• Classic FPS gameplay mixed with modern mechanics.
• Mission-based level structure, spanning 4+ separate episodes, with more than 20 hours worth of content.
• Intricate and highly interactive levels, with many secrets to find.
• A rich story consisting of multiple character arcs and plot threads.
• 8 different character classes with different gameplay styles, with more to unlock as you progress.
• Unique loadout of weapons and items for each character, as well as level-specific weapons to find and unlock.
• Collectibles, weapon replacements and a fully-fledged progress system.
• Upgradeable weapons and character abilities.
• Multiple vehicles, including motorcycles, spaceships, tanks and horses.
• In-game cutscenes and pre-rendered FMV sequences, complete with voice acting and subtitles.
• Original music composed by HiveBoss, TheDavisD, AliCatGamer, and various tracks sourced from OpenGameArt.
• And more features you never thought possible in a Build Engine game!

 

Screen:

Episode 4 trailer:

 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Redneckerz

[Rudolph]

Would it be possible to remake Duke Nukem 3D in GZDoom without the flaws of the original Build engine?

[Mr. Freeze]

Probably but now you got to deal with GZDoom's flaws 

[Rudolph]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Freeze said:

Probably but now you got to deal with GZDoom's flaws 

What would they be in this specific case? Are there things that the Build Engine did that GZDoom still cannot?

[dasho]

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Would it be possible to remake Duke Nukem 3D in GZDoom without the flaws of the original Build engine?

 

Why not just play it in Raze at this point?

[MrFlibble]

3 hours ago, Rudolph said:

flaws of the original Build engine

It's not like it has game-breaking bugs or forces faulty design choices on mappers?

[D4NUK1]

3 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Would it be possible to remake Duke Nukem 3D in GZDoom without the flaws of the original Build engine?

That would be Raze ongoing.

[Graf Zahl]

Build's and Doom's features are not really compatible. You cannot do moving vehicles in Doom but those are a staple of Duke Nukem.

There's also that often overlooked thing that parts of the game depend on the engine's quirks. Otherwise it'd be a lot easier to rewrite it in a more robust fashion.

With Duke we must never forget that it's not only the Build engine at play here but that the actual game code is also in a league of its own when it comes to poor coding.

 

[Human Being]

On 4/11/2023 at 5:24 AM, gipi said:

Build engine games in general seem to be built different (no pun intended), I think, because they tried to be realistic, so enemies are more bullet spongy, and mostly hitscan, and to top it off, environments are often tighter and more cluttered. Quake had basically empty rooms for the most part, with lots of room to maneuver, and while having a lot spongier enemies it had no hitscans so the gameplay loop is entirely different. No amount of one-liners (which are, admittedly, awesome) can change that. And the keycards are lot harder to spot! Especially in Redneck Rampage.

No one seems to point this out, they're just bungled together as le "old school boomer shooters", especially now with the new Build craze.

 

RE: Does anyone else feel like Build games are by design worse than Doom/Quake?

 

Answer: YES

 

Doom & Quake, and their engines, (obviously) are far superior. How active is the DooM / Quake scene for casual gamers? How active for speedrunning? Now compare that to Build Engine games. IMO, the proof is in the pudding. Just my $0.02, and the will of the crowd certainly isn't everything. But I'd say there's a reason Doom/Quake are still so incredibly active 25-30 years after they were introduced to the public.