[MBF21] What Lies Beneath - 11 maps episode from some of the Hellevator/Skulltiverse/Solar Struggle contributors (Official Idgame release)

[ViolentBeetle]

7 hours ago, Book Lord said:

The map set has only one new enemy and most of the behind-the-scenes arrangements looked like Boom voodoo dolls. Maybe the crusher effects, e.g. the lava flush on MAP08, were generalised crushers which could not happen outside -cl 21.

The main MBF21 feature used is the new decorations. There would simply not be enough numbers to cover them and have all the tree variety and whatnot.

The new enemy would also be impossible without MBF21 functionality. Sure, it would be possible to approximate what it does with ordinary codepointers, but not quite.

You are correct about the lava flush, but it's not really a crusher, and wouldn't be as smooth with pre-MBF21 functionality.

 

Thank you for playing, I will read your review in details later.

Edited May 30, 2023 by ViolentBeetle

[Shawny]

7 hours ago, Book Lord said:

Pressing all four switches allowed me to beat the arena quickly and without much frustration.

Thanks for poinitng this out. The thing is there a system to prevent this, but looks like it works just some % of the time.
There is a 2 triggers system in place, but I made the corner switches too lenient so when you press the switch the "effect"
of it is active for 9 seconds and if in that time the other check is activated the "script" progresses. Lowering the effect duration

(which is a timed door) to 1 - 4 seconds should fix this. I am pretty sure that should fix raising the barons issue as well.
 

7 hours ago, Book Lord said:

I was a bit exhausted and typed IDDQD when I saw that more enemies were appearing.

I am not blaming you, the map is a bit overambitious and designed to be a bit lasting.
That being said, the SMM room is not nearly enough as good as imagined so that one should have been done differently.

[Book Lord]

18 minutes ago, Shawny said:

Thanks for poinitng this out. The thing is there a system to prevent this, but looks like it works just some % of the time.
There is a 2 triggers system in place, but I made the corner switches too lenient so when you press the switch the "effect"
of it is active for 9 seconds and if in that time the other check is activated the "script" progresses. Lowering the effect duration

(which is a timed door) to 1 - 4 seconds should fix this. I am pretty sure that should fix raising the barons issue as well.

 

Ok, so I cannot rely on that trick the next time. Is there a way to understand how the platforms will sink?  I really had trouble understanding where to stay to avoid falling in the blood. 10% damage is a lot in this context, even if you supply a Berserk pack and other items to sustain the player. In general, I think that teleporting items is not a good way to support the player, because there is no way to plan ahead if the resources appear that way. This was an issue I had in some Skulltiverse maps as well, but I remember that megaWAD to be more lenient with the provided resources (except MAP26).

 

MAP11 is surely something to replay, but not now. It took me 58 minutes of actual playtime, with only the above mentioned arena requiring me to replay and reload it many times, so it was quite close to the actual time spent on the map (maybe 1h 20 mins in total) and I only found 1 out of 4 secrets: the Blue Armour in the first area of the red wing, a sign that my resolve to search for secrets quickly vanished while playing the map.

[Shawny]

So, the red blood room has 7 patterns* that are always the same and are on the loop.
Basically P1-P7 - (repeat) P1-P7 - (repeat) P1-P7... until all 4 switches are pressed.

There is a delay, that makes sure none of the "scripts" can cancel each other - this is done in multiple parts of the map,
until the blood raises and changes texture and effect. After each press will/start TP(ing) monsters and supplies. These are also fixed.
Platforms with light sequence will be dropping down into the blood pit after few seconds.
Will agree that TPing supplies is not the most elegant way to balance the fight, but in this case is kinda a necessary evil and I was thinkng
how I could do that in a different/better way, but got nothing in the end.

 

*(I have .bmp file of 7 patterns in my PC that I had created while making this map, don´t rememebr if I have put all 7 in at this point.)

 

3 of 4 secrets are rocket launchers you can get fairly quick that help with the early game and are well hidden.
I have seen some people complete the map in 45 minutes, but those are much better at doom than me.
My time for beat the map is also about an hour and yes, it is one of those map I am not too keen to test over and over again.
Such is process of trying different things in mapping. That being said me making maps like these is an exception.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Shawny

[DJVCardMaster]

Stucked in this area in MAP03, I'm playing in Doom Retro, is this normal? I could not find any tags related to any of those sectors indicating it would lower or something.

Edited May 31, 2023 by DJVCardMaster

[Book Lord]

A linedef near the entrance should raise a 16-unit staircase to the YK, but in your playthrough one step seems to be missing.

 

Not sure why this happened. Sec 350 has two adjacent sectors (75 and 683) and they should raise in sequence to form two different steps. It seems that your port raised them as a single step, so the staircase is missing one. Maybe rearranging sectors so that they have only one adjacent step to raise might increase compatibility with the various source ports.

 

It should have nothing to do with this issue since it is a predefined OG action, but does Doom Retro have support for MBF-21 and complevel 21? I do not think so. It supports Boom so most of the voodoo scripts will work, but I am not sure about the additional things mentioned by ViolentBeetle and generalised crushers in MAP04/MAP08.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Book Lord

[ViolentBeetle]

5 hours ago, DJVCardMaster said:

Stucked in this area in MAP03, I'm playing in Doom Retro, is this normal? I could not find any tags related to any of those sectors indicating it would lower or something.

Original doom had a bug in its stair building algorithm that caused this - but it was fixed in Boom. I saw it before on gzDoom due to compatibility flags, so it must be a compatibility issues.

 

[Clippy]

I'm finally able to start this. Fantastic opening map and I will definitely be back for more

 

Someday lol 

 

 

 

[Naarok0fkor]

This WAD deserves new player & monster skins...

[ViolentBeetle]

21 minutes ago, Naarok0fkor said:

This WAD deserves new player & monster skins...

I think original monsters work fine as is, always kinda felt changing them would be confusing.

Not sure what you mean by player skin. If you mean the mugshot, maybe, but not sure what would fit and where to get it.

[Naarok0fkor]

13 minutes ago, ViolentBeetle said:

I think original monsters work fine as is, always kinda felt changing them would be confusing.

Not sure what you mean by player skin. If you mean the mugshot, maybe, but not sure what would fit and where to get it.

What I mean is original weapons for the player. Maybe you should adapt this WAD to Hexen or Heretic. The most wonderful thing to do would be a second WAD with player & monster mods to go with the main WAD...

[myolden]

1 hour ago, Naarok0fkor said:

What I mean is original weapons for the player. Maybe you should adapt this WAD to Hexen or Heretic. The most wonderful thing to do would be a second WAD with player & monster mods to go with the main WAD...

 

If you'd like to play this mapset with mods feel free to install them yourself. 

[Shawny]

To be fair, I can see sprite replacement for monsters and weapons that would look pretty cool, especially with that "Alone in the dark" MAP01 aesthetic.
That being said, I think we are about ready to move on, and that is coming from me...
Also, as mentioned above the mapset should be fine with mods, in fact I want to try High noon drifter with it now.

[AlexIsBadAtDoom]

Full run through with myself and @LordEntr0py Sorry about the audio, we where trying a new way of recording. Fixed it now! 

[Clippy]

@LordEntr0py cool map man

 

Your eye for detail is impeccable 

 

I played super cautiously and either I had a fortunate run or you got a bit nicer but I got through this relatively unscathed 

 

Found some secrets to boot 

 

Also these demons must have been dirty cuz they constantly wanted to wash themselves 

 

 

 

[ViolentBeetle]

Release Candidate 5. This time it's definitely final, but I'm pressed for time to actually finalized.

• MAP11 has spider mastermind fight reworked, Shawny says it's better now
• MAP04 and MAP02 had some adjustments
• I added CREDITS text lump where every mapper and MIDI are listed, I keep forgetting to actually add it to archive, no matter, it'll be on idgames for sure.

[Clippy]

@Pegleg & @ViolentBeetle

 

really cool map - so many devious traps - I had a very fortunate run on it - constantly captivating the whole way through super fun!

 

 

[Clippy]

@DFF cool map not sure if I played one of yours before - amazing design and visuals - just got a lil frustrated with that wacky final fight lol

 

 

[Clippy]

@ViolentBeetle cool map - but I did get frustrated in the scenery, which was beautiful - but I can't see even when I can see so the constant vines and obstructions really messed me up lol - not my ideal setup for monster combat but I do love the mushroom sprites - also found it especially rough blind pistol start - I'll keep on truckin

 

 

[Clippy]

Played a bunch more - all great - spicy and fun - I get it now - all the different themes and the work together-ness required to connect them at the start and finish of each map - cool stuff

 

that lava button was especially fun - more to come (except 11 might be a while before I get to that one)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Clippy]

A few more! Good stuff!

 

 

 

[Clippy]

I finished it, I'll admit when the session started I did not expect it to take this long lol. Long maps make me cranky but there was a lot of clever stuff in here, one part was too clever for me - I could never quite grasp those moving lifts. Anywho cool stuff

 

 

[Shawny]

4 hours ago, Clippy said:

I finished it, I'll admit when the session started I did not expect it to take this long lol. Long maps make me cranky but there was a lot of clever stuff in here, one part was too clever for me - I could never quite grasp those moving lifts. Anywho cool stuff

 

 

Hey, thanks for playing, as I mentioned in the comment section on youtube, will not repeat everything I said there, I do appreciate your honesty
and can relate to your fatigue and frustration playing the map, so no worries. Regardless, thanks for finding some of the small but crucial mistakes
I have made with the rework, these will be fixed.

Again, for more detailed info and my thoughts you can take a look at the comment section on YT.
Thanks and have a good one.

 

Youtube comment dump. This is probably more appropriate here anyway.

Spoiler

Hey, thanks for playing. Lot to unpack here, though will try to be brief.

Bugs first:
7:12 Sky transfer seem to be broken, not sure how that happened but that should be an easy fix.

38:05 That missing texture is caused by me remaking that room at the last minute and I was testing the map with
          resource pack that came with the wad, issue is that merged wad was purged of unused textures and that gate
          texture variation was sadly one of them. VB said he has brought the texture back and all is good now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the progression and slow burn of the map:
Answer is yes, if you haven´t found any secrets. So this is deliberate, there are 3 secret rocket launchers, 2 of those
can be found really early (hence the amount rockets you get from the start) that accelerate the map.
If you don´t get an early rocket launcher the map is more methodical and slower, you can even say tedious and boring.

There is also a super secret way to get an early BFG from the starting room, basically after completing any side.

Secrets are:
6:46 The second bookcase from the left is different and has a small secret that opens a RL closed. That cubby is also
        missing baron head on the texture, that is where the RL is.

21:10 You can see small blue skull switch in the cubby/monster closet on the right wall
        (and yes, it is blending with the scenery, it is a secret after all) and it will also grant a RL.

44:57 Brick texture one the first pillar (the one closer to the player) is lighter and hides a switch that open a room behind
          the bookcase at the end of the path 45:08 with a RL.

45:30 You can see the candles on the top of the bookcases.
          If you follow the candle path you would get a blue armor by using the lion marble face at the end of the path.

Regarding the BFG not secret super secret there are tiny hints in the first major 0:29 room on the map.
It is also done in a way that you can get locked from getting it early so you can´t just stumble into it.
The map is not in any way shape or form balanced around that, so this is more of a bonus if you know what to do.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some of the design thoughts:
0:41 These suppose to teach the player that walls with that particular texture are silent teleporters that player can use.

5:16 These switches also work as a tutorial for how to use them. Basically you can use them as normal switches OR you can shoot
        them from the distance by hitscan weapon, hitting it also work since that is how (G)unfire triggers is set.
        OFC for the teaching purposes you need to do both in that room.
        That mechanic is used in the room at 28:36 and in limited degree in SMM room. Speaking of the "clock" room, you can see
        33:49 the room is shaped as a clock face and it count down each wave
        (numbers 1-9 are white and 10 - 12 are red for better visibility),
        when countdown reaches 12, the fence with the archies and switches lower so player can be ready.
        The ammo and enemies also spawn at set time.

36:17 / 1:01:27 this room is pretty straight forward if you follow the bookcase cover sequence, hit switches that uncover
        along the way  and then you leave and get a key for that particular side. SMM will get killed by script later.
        Or you can kill both SMM yourself and have more space to breathe... you need to press those switches regardless.

49:03 Each corner has a switch that needs to be pressed.
         Blinking platforms will lower after few seconds and if there is platform in the corner a switch in that corner will be revealed
         and if done proper supplies and some new enemies will spawn. There are some measures that prevent pressing buttons
         while not revealed, well, you can press the any time, but the will do nothing, or in theory,
         there is some grace period when pressing the buttons so these measures don´t work 100% of the time.
         That being said pressing the button from the blood pit will work if the button is revealed.
         Press all 4 of them, wait until Boom scripting is done, take about 10 second if I remember correctly and you can leave. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And that is about it... when I said I will try to be brief... I tried to, but I guess I lied, sorry about that.
Anyways, I do appreciate your honesty and I can relate to the fatigue and frustration that was setting in.
I streamed the first released version of the wad and by the time I got to my map I was really not looking forward playing it and felt probably the same while playing it as you were, so no hard feelings.

Cheers, and have a good one.

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Shawny
I change my mind, YT comment dump in the spolier section.

[ViolentBeetle]

We are going to idgames. There's a few more fixes on MAP11, missing texture restored, co-op starts added everywhere, it should be fine.

[ViolentBeetle]

We are now officially on idgames. Link had been added to OP post.

Thanks to everyone who contributed and for support to everyone else.

Edited July 3, 2023 by ViolentBeetle

[ViolentBeetle]

There's some hotfixing coming up (Because of course they are) in the next couple of days.

Hope you weren't recording demos just yet.

[Shawny]

As VB mentioned above, I have played the wad again yesterday, this time with minicharge mod and I found some small issues.
If played with software rendering there are weird lines in the sky in MAP01 and several tiny slime trails in various maps.
There is a chance that in MAP04 a monster/monsters may not teleport into map properly. Got the same imp stuck twice.

Other than that all seems fine.
(I had adjust SMM closet in MAP11 since that monster is change into a flying one in this mod.)

Full playthrough (unlisted with link for now).
I wanted to edit the vod a bit, but editing on my old PC is kinda time consuming and I needed to get this out ASAP.

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Shawny

[ViolentBeetle]

I'm sending the slight update to idgames, you'll know it's been uploaded when "known issues" start having double linebreaks.

This better be the final one.

Edited July 4, 2023 by ViolentBeetle

[ViolentBeetle]

Seems like update went through and hopefully there won't be any more.

[VoanHead]

I've been playing this for the last two days and damn it's pretty good. I'm gonna wrap up map 6 soon and will probably finish it the end of this week. I hope this gets added to the doom wiki for the walkthrough on finding secrets b/c my monkey brain'd self struggled to find the secrets lol. Still, it's a hell of a good time.