[MBF21] What Lies Beneath - 11 maps episode from some of the Hellevator/Skulltiverse/Solar Struggle contributors (Official Idgame release)

[ViolentBeetle]

9 minutes ago, Fly In The Lotion said:

 

Yes, it's set to MBF21 (DSDA). Not sure why, but it's no big deal, so far it seems this only happened to me, so the problem might be on my end, since I haven't seen anyone complain about it in the thread. 

Could it be that your version of DSDA is not new enough to have MBF21 support?

[siege cunt]

amazing mapset!  I 'm up to map7, and the atmosphere and pacing are just wonderful.

 

regarding the map 6 softlock below, i also found it; i did the jump with sr40 the first time, then failed to repeat it and got it the first sr50 i tried, so i think it's pretty reliable.

 

On 4/20/2023 at 8:53 AM, Hasamnas said:

Just reached map 07, this wad is really good! I did find a softlock in map 06, you can use the debris to jump to the megaarmor secret, but if you do you're stuck there.

[ViolentBeetle]

Release candidate 2 is now live.

- Some minor changes to balance and graphical issues fixes across the maps

- Softlock in MAP06 secret should not be fixed. Jump was not intended, but it is now accomodated.

- Korax switches on MAP11 are now a little less inscrutable. Or more specifically, you get trapped in a room with the first 2 until you understand what is going on.

- Decorate lump added to make decorations the correct height in gzDoom. It's not quite the intended way to play, but it's more accomodated now.

Edited April 25, 2023 by ViolentBeetle

[nobleflame]

This looks epic. Will give it a shot!

[Fly In The Lotion]

On 4/23/2023 at 2:07 AM, ViolentBeetle said:

Could it be that your version of DSDA is not new enough to have MBF21 support?

 

It's the most recent one, oldest ones didn't have indexed sector lighting support, so I'm quite positive. I haven't found any other non-intentionally crossable barriers since then , enjoying the set a lot, great work!

Edited April 26, 2023 by Fly In The Lotion

[ViolentBeetle]

On the subject of MBF21 and falling into the pit through the railing - it seems like MBF21 unique line properties are limited to default compatibility only at the moment. Or after unchecking "disable MBF21 features"

[nobleflame]

Played through map 01 and this is already one of the best wads I've played so far this year. I love the attention to detail and the haunted mansion aesthetic. Excellent choice of music too. 

 

You really went all out with the DOOM cute and I'm here for it. 

[Captain Toenail]

Very good I'm up to map04 so far. Love the little sector details like the lab stuff and the teddy bear. The sicko guy at the window made me laugh. Appreciate the use of the new props!

 

I was unable to reach the yellow key on map03 - one of the steps did not raise high enough(?). This may have been user error however - I didn't check the compat modes in GZDoom and it turned out I had Doom Strict on so that may have broken a trigger somewhere.

 

The inside of a crate on map01 has the same texture as the surrounding floor. Otherwise I have not noticed any bugs so far - nice work :-)

[ViolentBeetle]

4 hours ago, Captain Toenail said:

I was unable to reach the yellow key on map03 - one of the steps did not raise high enough(?). This may have been user error however - I didn't check the compat modes in GZDoom and it turned out I had Doom Strict on so that may have broken a trigger somewhere.

Works on my machine (tm)

It's a simple stair-building effect that I'm pretty sure exists since Doom. I don't know what could've gone wrong.

[nobleflame]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I've found an error with the mega armour secret in Map06. The soft lock appears to have been fixed, but now the secret tag doesn't trigger when you collect the mega armour. This means you can only get 3/4 secrets.

[ViolentBeetle]

11 minutes ago, nobleflame said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I've found an error with the mega armour secret in Map06. The soft lock appears to have been fixed, but now the secret tag doesn't trigger when you collect the mega armour. This means you can only get 3/4 secrets.

Big oof. Will be fixed.

[nobleflame]

1 hour ago, ViolentBeetle said:

Big oof. Will be fixed.

Cool, love this map set. Very high quality :)

[leveste]

12 hours ago, nobleflame said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I've found an error with the mega armour secret in Map06. The soft lock appears to have been fixed, but now the secret tag doesn't trigger when you collect the mega armour. This means you can only get 3/4 secrets.

Can confirm. Just finished the map earlier and ran into the same issue. I did a no monsters run right after and triggering the intended way is fine. Honestly, I'm surprised the jump wasn't originally intended, because it's pretty easy to do(got it on my 3rd or 4th try with SR40).

 

Putting that aside, I've been really loving this wad so far. I only picked it up on a whim and it was a pleasant surprise(Map04 is my personal favourite so far).

[ViolentBeetle]

2 hours ago, leveste said:

Can confirm. Just finished the map earlier and ran into the same issue. I did a no monsters run right after and triggering the intended way is fine.

Yeah, I accidentally used the action that clears the effect off the sector. That is meant to remove damaging floors while platform raises, but it removes secrets too.

[David's Flute]

What is the song used in 1st map. It's so beautiful.

[ViolentBeetle]

5 minutes ago, David's Flute said:

What is the song used in 1st map. It's so beautiful.

Lair of the Raven King by Muddy

I'll try to remember ship the next version with a credits.txt file.

[leveste]

Just finished playing it. I started Map06 today and before I knew it, I was already at the final boss. Really loved the atmosphere and fights.

 

Maps 4 and 11 were the best ones. Map 3 was probably my least favourite. It was a good map, but it felt disjointed compared to the rest.

 

Spoiler

I did find it weird though how you had to both press and shoot those switches in Map11, though. Not sure what the though process was behind that. Took me a minute to realise I wasn't actually softlocked at that section

 

Also, a question for Map10

Spoiler

Where exactly is the secret. The stats say there's one, but I couldn't find it. Can't seem to spot it with IDDT either, nor in Doom Builder. Played on Woof(complevel -21), if that helps.

Edit: Forgot to mention, but I really appreciate that you made all the maps easy to backtrack. As a casual completionist, it's nice that I can look for stuff I missed after finishing the fights. I'm sure continuous players will appreciate it as well.

Edited April 30, 2023 by leveste
Additional info

[myolden]

1 hour ago, leveste said:

 

Also, a question for Map10

  Hide contents

Where exactly is the secret. The stats say there's one, but I couldn't find it. Can't seem to spot it with IDDT either, nor in Doom Builder. Played on Woof(complevel -21), if that helps.

 

Spoiler

You can walk into the blood fall next to the plasma gun, where a switch activates the secret.

 

[leveste]

8 minutes ago, myolden said:

 

  Hide contents

You can walk into the blood fall next to the plasma gun, where a switch activates the secret.

 

Spoiler

In hindsight, it should've been obvious. Weird that it didn't show with IDDT until the button's pressed, but I guess that's just a quirk of the game

Thanks for the reply!

[Shawny]

5 hours ago, leveste said:

I did find it weird though how you had to both press and shoot those switches in Map11, though. Not sure what the though process was behind that. Took me a minute to realise I wasn't actually softlocked at that section

 

That section should teach player that later on in the map those switches can be activated by PRESSING them on melee range

OR by SHOOTING them with hitscan weapon (and yes, punch works too).

And yes, everyone else was confused as much as you. In fact, I had do rework that section with a "lock in" to make sure players
are on the same page as me. That being said, I don´t think many wads use setup like this so I am no surprised people are getting stuck
on that section.

At the end of the day... it is what it is. I appreciate you liked the map even though it is a bit flawed and janky.

[leveste]

8 hours ago, Shawny said:

 

That section should teach player that later on in the map those switches can be activated by PRESSING them on melee range

OR by SHOOTING them with hitscan weapon (and yes, punch works too).

And yes, everyone else was confused as much as you. In fact, I had do rework that section with a "lock in" to make sure players
are on the same page as me. That being said, I don´t think many wads use setup like this so I am no surprised people are getting stuck
on that section.

At the end of the day... it is what it is. I appreciate you liked the map even though it is a bit flawed and janky.

Honestly, aside from those two swithces in the great hall, I don't recall ever shooting any of the other ones.

 

Regardless, it was a great map overall, especially with the creativity of the fights(the one with the lowering platforms being my favourite). I also like how there wasn't a backpack until literally the boss fight, since it really forced me to keep an eye on my ammo count(though I imagine continuous players will have a much easier time). Normally, long maps aren't my thing, but it works here since it's supposed to be the big finale.

 

The secrets were really well hidden and I can tell you I didn't find any of them myself. Even with IDDT, I had to open Doom Builder to find the switches(then again, I binged Maps 6-11 in a single day, so I was pretty tired at the end).

 

Some feedback/critique on things that stood out.

Spoiler

Maybe telegraph the "points of no return" better? I didn't get to the switches until I actually looped back to the main hall, because I originally thought those doors would lead somewhere, so I went the other way to explore. Similarly, I missed the section in the library with the Cacos because I instead went for the berserk. It's pretty obvious you can't turn back after you fall from the berserk room, but maybe include a lift or stairs to go back and explore before proceeding?

 

On the subject of the library, I would maybe make the gargoyle secret a bit easier to spot. Walking the bookcase was a good idea, but since the two gargoyles were the same, I didn't pay it much attention. Maybe use a different gaargoyle or give it glowing eyes(like the wall switch at the start of Map06).

 

These are my two cents, but honestly they're more nitpicks. The map as a whole was great and, like I said, tied with Map04 for my favourite in the wad.

[mancubian_candidate]

Howdy all, have a quick question:

Spoiler

Map 11: I can't figure out the Secret behind the bookcase in the "Red" area. Any hints? :)

 

[leveste]

51 minutes ago, mancubian_candidate said:

Howdy all, have a quick question:

  Hide contents

Map 11: I can't figure out the Secret behind the bookcase in the "Red" area. Any hints? :)

 

I'm guessing you're refering to this one right?

Spoiler

 

There's a switch on the other side on the middle piller(you'll notice it's a lighter color). Press use on that and it'll reveal a button that will lower the bookcase.

 

 

[mancubian_candidate]

2 minutes ago, leveste said:

I'm guessing you're refering to this one right?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

There's a switch on the other side on the middle piller(you'll notice it's a lighter color). Press use on that and it'll reveal a button that will lower the bookcase.

 

 

Thats the one, thank you so much - really appreciate it :)

[Captain Toenail]

On 4/28/2023 at 6:02 PM, ViolentBeetle said:

It's a simple stair-building effect that I'm pretty sure exists since Doom. I don't know what could've gone wrong.

 

I'm not sure what happened. Here's the screenshot - this step was too high. 

 

Spoiler

 

[ViolentBeetle]

5 minutes ago, Captain Toenail said:

I'm not sure what happened. Here's the screenshot - this step was too high. 

Is it consistent thing you getting or some freak accident? Because it seems like a step was skipped somehow.

[Captain Toenail]

Freak accident I guess - I loaded up the map again and I am unable to recreate it.

[Shepardus]

10 minutes ago, ViolentBeetle said:

Is it consistent thing you getting or some freak accident? Because it seems like a step was skipped somehow.

I haven't looked at this specific area, but my first thought is that it's a stair builder behavior that was changed in Boom and ZDoom (TNT MAP30 is a notable example that requires the vanilla behavior to work correctly). There's a compatibility flag related to stair builders, try changing that and see if it makes the difference.

[ViolentBeetle]

8 hours ago, Shepardus said:

I haven't looked at this specific area, but my first thought is that it's a stair builder behavior that was changed in Boom and ZDoom (TNT MAP30 is a notable example that requires the vanilla behavior to work correctly). There's a compatibility flag related to stair builders, try changing that and see if it makes the difference.

I don't know where to find this setting, best I could do is to cycle through complevels 2, 9 and 21 and all of them showed the same results.

What was the change, even? The staircase is fully complaint with the logic staircase building effect uses.

[Shepardus]

1 hour ago, ViolentBeetle said:

I don't know where to find this setting, best I could do is to cycle through complevels 2, 9 and 21 and all of them showed the same results.

What was the change, even? The staircase is fully complaint with the logic staircase building effect uses.

In GZDoom it's Compatibility Options -> Map/Action Behavior -> Use buggier stair building (compat_stairs). I just tested it and having that on does break the stairs. The "Doom (strict)" compatibility mode includes setting that flag on, so as a player I would advise not using "Doom (strict)" compatibility when playing this, since after all this isn't a vanilla Doom WAD ("Boom (strict)" works fine). If you really want to, I think you can force the flag off in MAPINFO.

 

In Boom/MBF-derived source ports it's the "comp_stairs" option. In PrBoom+/Woof/Eternity's compatibility menu (which dsda-doom removed in favor of the OPTIONS lump) it's "Use exactly Doom's stairbuilding method." This is off for complevels 9 and up but should be on for complevel 2, so I'm not sure why you weren't able to reproduce it with complevel 2 (if you were using the TNTCOMP cheat, maybe that doesn't work for this?). I was able to reproduce it by launching the game with complevel 2 and noclipping to the room.

 

I don't fully understand the change (or stairbuilders in general), but the ZDoom wiki says the following: "When looking for all tagged sectors to build stairs, Doom.exe resumed the search with the last sector of the current stair, not the one following the starting sector."

 

TNT MAP30 relies on the vanilla behavior, so if you play that map with complevel 9, the stairs to the red skull key don't rise high enough to reach the key. Rather ironic that TeamTNT's source port breaks their own WAD...