Steam stops supporting Windows 7 and Windows 8

[Mr Masker]

51 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Excellent opportunity to upgrade to a non-Microsoft operating system for anyone who hasn't yet.

I'd get something like Linux but right now Windows 10 hasn't been that big an issue for me. If something happens to Windows 10 or something similar happens, then maybe I'll consider my options there. Although I wouldn't mind trying Linux just for a bit at some point.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Mr Masker

[BBQgiraffe]

23 minutes ago, Mr Masker said:

I'd get something like Linux but right now Windows 10 hasn't been that big an issue for me. If something happens to Windows 10 or something similar happens, then maybe I'll consider my options there. Although I wouldn't mind trying Linux just for a bit at some point.

if you're looking to hop in I'd recommend something beginner friendly like LMDE running in a VM just to learn how Linux filesystems and commands work

 

also if someone recommends you Ubuntu, don't lmao, it's slowly just becoming Windows

[Individualised]

I suppose if you're used to it then it seems fine. But I don't like operating systems that do things on their own, like uninstalling software that the user has installed, or performing software updates with no official way to disable them. I also don't like operating systems that have major flaws, such as enabling a "fast boot" option by default which essentially causes your computer to never have downtime, causing things to not run very very quickly. Yes I know there's ways to workaround all of these things but the point is they should be "fixed" right out of the box.

[Mr Masker]

3 minutes ago, BBQgiraffe said:

if you're looking to hop in I'd recommend something beginner friendly like LMDE running in a VM just to learn how Linux filesystems and commands work

 

also if someone recommends you Ubuntu, don't lmao, it's slowly just becoming Windows

Interesting, I've been thinking of trying Virtual Machines so I'll give that a shot. Appreciated!

Edited May 4, 2023 by Mr Masker

[Individualised]

3 minutes ago, BBQgiraffe said:

if you're looking to hop in I'd recommend something beginner friendly like LMDE running in a VM just to learn how Linux filesystems and commands work

 

also if someone recommends you Ubuntu, don't lmao, it's slowly just becoming Windows

I run Ubuntu and I don't have any issues with it. I've had less issues with it than I have with Windows 10 and Mac OS combined. If you think Ubuntu is anywhere near as bad as Windows, use it as your sole operating system for a while and then try to come into contact with a PC running Windows 10 or 11, you will be in shock. I know they've been making decisions lately that people don't like but it's absolutely nothing compared to the mess that is Windows. You can still actually control what's going on with your PC.

 

Is there anything I should know about? Now I'm curious.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Individualised

[Graf Zahl]

38 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Is there anything I should know about? Now I'm curious.

 

Sure there is. Many people stick to Windows because the software they use does not exist for Linux.

 

Also, Apple isn't any better than Microsoft - on the contrary - they throw even more old software under the bus with their frequent incompatibilities.

I had to ditch an old Macbook last year because they suddenly decided not to allow OS updates on it anymore which half a year later meant I couldn't run the 'supported' version of XCode anymore, rendering the system useless.

 

[Individualised]

11 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

Sure there is. Many people stick to Windows because the software they use does not exist for Linux.

 

@BBQgiraffe was implying that there was something wrong/Windows-like with recent versions of Ubuntu, that is what I was asking about.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Individualised

[LexiMax]

My motto is YOSPOS - Your Operating System is a Piece Of Shit.

 

Which OS?  Your OS.  Yes, your OS.  No matter which OS you use, you're going to run into problems.  I've used all three OS's in anger for extended periods of time, and they all suck for different reasons.

 

Linux has a cultural issue where it is expected that 99% of Linux software should be provided by the distro, and binary distribution of applications is an enormous pain in the ass.  There is also a culture of forking and getting 100% of what you want instead of collaberating and putting more wood behind fewer arrows.  The GNOME/Freedesktop ecosystem is actually very nicely put together, but last time I used it had some strange omissions in functionality - I couldn't set my default sound device and have it be saved from session to session.

 

Apple's UI makes a great first impression and seems very well put together, but when things break they break in confusing, unknowable ways that are impossible to debug.  They also deprecate API's way too quickly and if you are a crossplatform developer they don't give a single fuck about you and make your life difficult for no reason.

Edited May 4, 2023 by LexiMax

[DrinkyBird]

2 hours ago, Individualised said:

Excellent opportunity to upgrade to a non-Microsoft operating system for anyone who hasn't yet.

I think I'll wait until Win10 is EOL before buying a dock for my MacBook...

[Individualised]

8 minutes ago, DrinkyBird said:

I think I'll wait until Win10 is EOL before buying a dock for my MacBook...

Maybe I should have said non-Apple too

[Azuris]

Well, i am a bit sad about Win 8, as it runs pretty neat on my older Laptop and i don't see a reason to upgrade.

 

When Steam turns off Win 10, i'll be out of Windows and change to Linux Mint as Main OS.

[DrinkyBird]

54 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Maybe I should have said non-Apple too

Then we've exhausted all of the options that can run the programs I need...

[Individualised]

8 minutes ago, DrinkyBird said:

Then we've exhausted all of the options that can run the programs I need...

Wine + Proton

[DrinkyBird]

18 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Wine + Proton

are incapable of running the programs I need, or any non-game software made in the past fifteen years or so really.

[Individualised]

7 minutes ago, DrinkyBird said:

are incapable of running the programs I need, or any non-game software made in the past fifteen years or so really.

Such as? I'm curious. I've had great compatibility with all the software I use.

[LexiMax]

15 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Such as? I'm curious. I've had great compatibility with all the software I use. 

 

Unless software explicitly and emphatically states their support for running under Wine/Proton, you cannot depend on it.  Any problem or glitch that you run into with the software that you report, 99 times out of 100 you'll get a form response from the developer asking you to run it in a supported operating system instead - even if it's genuinely a bug in their program.

 

Proton is not an acceptable substitute for native ports, and the fact that Linux has not been able to attract ports of many critical pieces of software due mostly to the myopia and self-inflicted gunshot wounds of the Desktop Linux community should be seen as a Failure with a capital F.  Do you realize how embarrassing it is that the most stable ABI on Linux is Win32?

Edited May 4, 2023 by LexiMax

[Individualised]

7 minutes ago, LexiMax said:

 

Unless software explicitly and emphatically states their support for running under Wine/Proton, you cannot depend on it.  Any problem or glitch that you run into with the software that you report, 99 times out of 100 you'll get a form response from the developer asking you to run it in a supported operating system instead - even if it's genuinely a bug in their program.

 

Proton is not a substitute for native ports, and the fact that Linux has not been able to attract ports of many critical pieces of software due mostly to the myopia and self-inflicted gunshot wounds of the Desktop Linux community should be seen as a Failure with a capital F.

I get what you're saying but it also seems a bit blown out of proportion. My experience so far has been almost perfect.

 

If anything Proton is the stepping stone to getting more native ports of games, as it has attracted many to Linux (also the Steam Deck). The more gamers there are on Linux, the more likely we'll start seeing more native ports. Again I get what you're saying, it's not ideal at the moment but I believe given time we will start seeing much more native support.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Individualised

[DrinkyBird]

4 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Such as? I'm curious. I've had great compatibility with all the software I use.

How about any professional creative software? Namely the Adobe suite. Stuff like Premiere Pro and After Effects are simply off the table. So you'd have to use an archaic version and deal with less features, a million workarounds, no hardware acceleration, and general jankiness - or pick a Linux-native alternative, and have to learn an entirely new workflow and sacrifice plugins, features, performance, interoperability...

Even stuff like Paint.NET won't work at all. Even Notepad++ has issues!

And in terms of game tools, UDB supports Wine officially, and still isn't perfect. And I can't work on my Source engine mod because the tools have random render glitches under Wine. (though, to be fair, the Source SDK is barely functional on Windows as well)

And I really like Linux. It's so nice for programming, and good for playing games too. But I do other things as well, and I'd like to keep doing those things - instead of relearning everything in a different program, having to screw around with getting stuff to work, or sitting and crying because it won't work at all.

[Individualised]

5 minutes ago, DrinkyBird said:

How about any professional creative software? Namely the Adobe suite. Stuff like Premiere Pro and After Effects are simply off the table. So you'd have to use an archaic version and deal with less features, a million workarounds, no hardware acceleration, and general jankiness - or pick a Linux-native alternative, and have to learn an entirely new workflow and sacrifice plugins, features, performance, interoperability...

Even stuff like Paint.NET won't work at all. Even Notepad++ has issues!

And in terms of game tools, UDB supports Wine officially, and still isn't perfect. And I can't work on my Source engine mod because the tools have random render glitches under Wine. (though, to be fair, the Source SDK is barely functional on Windows as well)

And I really like Linux. It's so nice for programming, and good for playing games too. But I do other things as well, and I'd like to keep doing those things - instead of relearning everything in a different program, having to screw around with getting stuff to work, or sitting and crying because it won't work at all.

Oh yeah Paint.NET was a big one for me, I forgot about that. There is a clone called Pinta but it's pretty unstable. I ended up just learning GIMP, I don't really like how things are done on there and if I could go back to Paint.NET I would but it's good enough for me. Adobe never even crossed my mind because I use alternatives anyway.

 

UDB runs natively on though, I used the Windows version through Wine before that and it gave me issues, so someone here pointed me to the native version. It is missing a nodebuilder though so you have to do that externally (unless I just didn't set it up properly), but it's not crash central and you can actually use the clipboard.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Individualised

[LexiMax]

4 minutes ago, Individualised said:

I don't really understand your point about Proton either. If anything Proton is the stepping stone to getting more native ports of games, as it has attracted many to Linux (also the Steam Deck).

 

Valve used to actually encourage and promote native ports of Linux games, but they sold so poorly and bitrotted so quickly - leaving developers with a bad taste in their mouth - that once the incentives dried up, so did the influx of ports.

 

Their support of Proton over native ports is an admission that the binary distribution ecosystem of Linux is so broken that the only way they could possibly ship a Steam Deck without Windows was to go with a compatibility shim that required almost no actual porting effort from developers.

[ENEMY!!!]

6 hours ago, HavoX said:

 

The other issue... Edge. I had to uninstall it with HiBitUninstaller because it took up some space, but... each week, Windows decides to act like a dick and reinstall it WITHOUT MY FUCKING PERMISSION.

That's no browser, that's a virus that won't go away.

I think that's a major reason why Microsoft was keen to push compulsory automatic updates with Windows 10.  Their official line was that it was for security, but another major factor was that with Windows 7/8, they couldn't get away with using automatic updates to do things like reinstalling Edge when it is removed, because it could lead to more users turning off automatic updates and not regularly updating manually, which would present security problems.  Since Microsoft removed the ability to turn off automatic updates, they haven't had to worry about that, and so they have taken full advantage, to try and increase user compliance with Microsoft default settings that are optimised for Microsoft's profits.  I remember that in the early versions of Windows 10, they also made automatic updates turn Fast Startup back on if users disabled it, but that proved to be a step too far.

 

I've been in discussions on this on the past and others have quite often cited this as a necessary evil to legislate for idiots who change settings when they really shouldn't, or fail to update their systems frequently, and present security risks and complain to customer support.  But I'm seeing a general trend towards users accepting more and more losses of user control and lock-ins to default settings as a necessary evil for this reason.  As long as it happens slowly and in small increments, users will accept it, and that means more and more scope for big tech to abuse the extra control that it gives them.  (It's not just Microsoft - Google, Facebook/Meta, Apple, they all do it).

 

I can understand people wanting to stick with Windows 7/8 on these grounds, but the problem, as others have mentioned, is that they are increasingly obsolete and incompatible with a lot of modern stuff, so I don't really object to Steam removing support for them.  (I use Windows 10 by the way).

Edited May 4, 2023 by ENEMY!!!

[Individualised]

Just now, LexiMax said:

 

Valve used to actually encourage and promote native ports of Linux games, but they sold so poorly and bitrotted so quickly - leaving developers with a bad taste in their mouth - that once the incentives dried up, so did the influx of ports.

 

Their support of Proton over native ports is an admission that the binary distribution ecosystem of Linux is so broken that the only way they could possibly ship a Steam Deck without Windows was to go with a compatibility shim that required almost no actual porting effort from developers.

Good points. I see it as a second chance though, honestly. We'll see how things play out I guess.

[Individualised]

1 minute ago, ENEMY!!! said:

I think that's a major reason why Microsoft was keen to push compulsory automatic updates with Windows 10.  Their official line was that it was for security, but another major factor was that with Windows 7/8, they couldn't get away with using automatic updates to do things like reinstalling Edge when it is removed, because it could lead to more users turning off automatic updates and not regularly updating manually, which would present security problems.  Since Microsoft removed the ability to turn off automatic updates, they haven't had to worry about that, and so they have taken full advantage.  I remember that in the early versions of Windows 10, they also made automatic updates turn Fast Startup back on if users disabled it, but that proved to be a step too far.

 

I've been in discussions on this on the past and others have quite often cited this as a necessary evil to legislate for idiots who change settings when they really shouldn't, or fail to update their systems frequently, and present security risks and complain to customer support.  But I'm seeing a general trend towards users accepting more and more losses of user control and lock-ins to default settings as a necessary evil for this reason.  As long as it happens slowly and in small increments, users will accept it, and that means more and more scope for big tech to abuse the extra control that it gives them.

 

I can understand people wanting to stick with Windows 7/8 on these grounds, but the problem, as others have mentioned, is that they are increasingly obsolete and incompatible with a lot of modern stuff, so I don't really object to Steam removing support for them.  (I use Windows 10 by the way).

All of this so. Using Windows on a modern computer basically means you don't control it. When they started installing Candy Crush that was the point of no return for me, and I already wasn't bothering with Windows 10 anyway, because every single personal (i.e. not belonging to an organisation and therefore managed by IT) Windows 10 system I've used has been hell to experience. Like I actually can't believe they're shipping an operating system that performs this poorly on modern hardware. You wait about 5 minutes to perform simple tasks, it's unbearable to use.

[LexiMax]

4 minutes ago, Individualised said:

We'll see how things play out I guess. 

 

No, you don't need to see how things play out.  The problem with distributing binary software on Linux are problems the Linux desktop community needs to solve if they actually want to win over desktop users and developers on a large scale.  Leaving it for corporate benefactors is how you get domain-specific half-solutions like Docker and Proton that don't benefit the wider ecosystem.

[DrinkyBird]

15 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Oh yeah Paint.NET was a big one for me, I forgot about that. There is a clone called Pinta but it's pretty unstable. Adobe never even crossed my mind because I use alternatives anyway.

 

UDB runs natively on Linux though.

Pinta would almost be a usable alternative but I have one major problem with it: selection. It's comically slow and the selection handles zoom in with the image, so they always block the pixels underneath them. Why?!

I misremembered about UDB (it runs with Mono, not Wine), but the last time I used it I saw dire performance especially in 3D mode and miscallenous UI glitches. This was a while ago though.

 

13 minutes ago, LexiMax said:

Their support of Proton over native ports is an admission that the binary distribution ecosystem of Linux is so broken that the only way they could possibly ship a Steam Deck without Windows was to go with a compatibility shim that required almost no actual porting effort from developers.

And this was after they tried to solve binary distribution. (Which Proton runs on funnily enough.)

Edited May 4, 2023 by DrinkyBird

[LexiMax]

19 minutes ago, DrinkyBird said:

And this was after they tried to solve binary distribution. (Which Proton runs on funnily enough.)

 

And they still got screwed because popular distros started removing 32-bit libraries that the runtime depended on.

 

But yes, the most painless solution for distributing binary software on Linux is to basically ignore 99% of the distro's libraries and roll your own environment.  And until the Steam Runtime (and later Flatpak) came along, you basically had to reinvent this wheel yourself because the distros are certainly not going to help you subvert their gatekeeping.  After all, their attitude is best summed up by Drew DeVault, which I think I can be fair in citing from one of his articles:

 

Quote

An oft-heard complaint about Linux is that software distribution often takes several forms: a Windows version, a macOS version, and… a Debian version, an Ubuntu version, a Fedora version, a CentOS version, an openSUSE version… but these complaints miss the point. The true distributable form for Linux software, and rather for Unix software in general, is a .tar.gz file containing the source code.

 

Note: This article presumes that proprietary/nonfree software is irrelevant, and so should you.

That’s not to imply that end-users should take this tarball and run ./configure && make && sudo make install themselves. Rather, the responsibility for end-user software distribution is on the distribution itself.

 

As long as this attitude is the predominant attitude in the Linux desktop world, there will never be a year of the Linux desktop.  If Linux users want this to change, they must advocate for change from within their ecosystem, instead of uselessly trying to badger Adobe into supporting Photoshop on Wine, or trying to convince people in forum threads that - for example - GIMP is a perfectly reasonable substitute for Photoshop.

Edited May 4, 2023 by LexiMax

[Mr. Freeze]

Clearly the answer to a slight inconvenience provided by Windows is to suffer through the pain of switching to Linux 

[Geniraul]

16 hours ago, Kinsie said:

You can still upgrade to Windows 10 for free, so update your shit.

 

5 hours ago, Individualised said:

Excellent opportunity to upgrade to a non-Microsoft operating system for anyone who hasn't yet.

 

14 hours ago, Azure_Horror said:

Old hardware does not run Win 10/11 well. Same can be said about Win 10/11 and many older videogames.

 

I agree with @Azure_Horror. Personally, I think the issue that Windows 7 and Windows 8 users may face due to the end of support of older systems by Steam is this: either the inability to run certain games/software on newer Windows versions (as well as on other OSs), that can be ran and/or work well on older OSs, or the inability to play games from the Steam account library while staying with the older operating system. This choice had not had to be done before (but there was a similar situation with the Bethesda.net launcher last year, when players had to transfer their gaming data from there to Steam, otherwise could not get access to their games anymore).

 

For example, this could not happen with the CD versions of video games. If you own a CD with a legal copy of a game, normally no one can take it away from you, no matter what conditions they want you to fulfill. Therefore in this case, if you want to stay with your older OS, you can do so and still be able to enjoy all your games from CDs, including those that are incompatible with newer and other OSs.

 

Sure, this issue can be adjusted by getting another device, however there is a need to consider that not every user with Win 7/8 has an opportunity to buy a new powerful PC, since well... it costs quite a lot of money. Still, some might afford to use a Win 10/11 laptop, but it is not a secret to anyone that the gameplay in many video games on a laptop significantly differs from what it is on a regular PC.

 

Another thing to not forget to mention is that some of the modern games require higher device's performance in order to be ran (for instance, Doom (2016), Doom Eternal, Quake Champions) and may not be ran on some of the PCs/laptops with weaker hardware.

[Graf Zahl]

And thus the whole thing turned into a rant about the insanity of Linux's library organization...

 

You know, at least we are making progress now. Years ago this was a topic that got rarely discussed, but these days it's at the very top of Linux related issues, which means there's finally a chance to turn things around.

 

Developing software for an ecosystem where there's such a wildly diverging base of options is an utter nightmare.

It gets even worse when the official repo maintainers come into play. You never know what these people do to your project because some part of the setup goes against their ideology.

Or: Wanna use version 2.25 of some library? You betcha that some distro sticks to 2.20 for whatever dumb reason.

In such an environment you become dependent on people you can't control and can't convince that their way is not ok.

The most ridiculous thing I experienced was that one Linux distro made changes to the GZDoom project to exclude a few libraries we included in source code because we had to make some changes, just to revert to the system provided variants that do not work correctly. Needless to say, I refuse to give any tech support to such versions. The noise of these things still sticks around, though.

 

 

[indigotyrian]

The real problem with depreciating operating systems is that it's forcing people into new operating systems that are objectively fucking terrible. Not supporting old software that's been abandoned isn't the problem in and of itself; the real problem is that obsolescence is the anvil to enshittification's hammer. Windows 7 hitting EOL means other software running on it will hit EOL on that platform too, which means people have to move to the worse versions of Windows that remove your agency, spike your OS with adware and spyware, and generally treat you like a stupid asshole.