What turns you off from playing a Doom WAD? (Questionnaire/Discussion)

[Wo0p]

3 hours ago, Doomy__Doom said:

A shower thought I can't exactly elaborate on at the moment - I can read the title question as either "What turns you off when selecting wads to play?" or "What turns you off while playing a wad you've selected to give your time to?", which will probably have different answers (basically pure expectations vs expectations not matching reality or something).

 

Either or :)

 

Both answers could be interesting to get some perspective on. As some have noted recurring gameplay elements that irk them will turn people off from continuing to play, but at least they had to play the WAD to get to that point. Is that good or bad? Who knows! Some say the only bad art (I see Doom mapping as art) is art that doesn't evoke ANY feelings in them. So being super annoyed at a WAD is a feeling some mappers want to evoke in others perhaps?

[Wo0p]

4 hours ago, maxmanium said:

On top of unnecessary resource deprivation, I'm not privy to maps which overly restrict the player's movement. At that point it feels like you are at the mercy of RNG; movement is half the game in Doom IMO.

 

What would you define as "unnecessary" resource deprivation? For instance let's say you're playing a WAD that emphasises something close to realism and ammo can only be found in specific location such as guard houses and ammo trucks or some such. Some would say that increases their sense of immersion into the situation, but maybe you see that as unnecessary? There's no wrong answer, I'm just curious :)

[faad3e]

Enemies

1. No, we've been playing against the classic enemies for 30 years now, its real nice to get new stuff

2. No, aesthetic changes are good, but i prefer separate entities if you modify their stats

3. No

Armoury

4. Its cool, I like getting a little description of them in the text file though, like the damage i can expect and stuff

5. No, its nice getting faster chainguns for instance

6. Nope, also good with it

Mechanics

7. Im ok with it as long as the core gameplay loop is preserved, reloading can be a nice addition

8. Errrrrrr kinda??? It depends on how cleanly its done, and its nice if it doesnt deviate thaaaaaaat much from the original ui

9.

10. Slaughtermaps, love em, but its nice to get more adventure themed stuff, or narrative maps. If its too grindy i might consider skipping it. Example: Hellground is one of my favourite mapsets of all time, and its clearly not slaughter, but im also a really big fan of stardate 20x6 and Tetraptykon.

10. Im totally fine with it

11. Im totally fine with it

12. Im totally fine with it

13. They're good, it adds variation to otherwise completely combat based maps

14. See 13

15. See 13

Textures

16, 17, 18. All new textures can work well depending on how they're implemented, its awesome when something clearly deviates from the norm

Advanced Features

19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24. All advanced features can work very nicely, though i mostly enjoy the maps which retain a bit of the classic style, see winter's fury for instance, its very much a modern mapset, but it sprinkles modern stuff here and there and creates an awesome experience with it

 

------------------------

One thing that kinda prevents me from playing is stock doom2/doom1 music, i've heard them too many times by this point. Im ok with tnt/plutonia midis but custom music is ideal. Its nice also seeing ogg/mp3s.

 

Regarding ammo starvation it depends on the style of the map, if its a slaughter map with more than 1k monsters then it doesnt really make sense to have ammo starvation be a core part of it, but on more atmospheric maps it totally fits. Having a clear vision of what emotions you want to evoke on the player should help you decide whether you want to include ammo starvation or not as a part of it.

 

I think there's also kind of like a line between stuff that is too modern for my taste, for instance, i'm not really a fan of stuff like brutal doom, yet stuff like Major Arlene's Technicolor Antichrist Box is completely fine for me.

 

If the gameplay deviates too much from typical doom it might also be a turn off, think stuff like major gameplay conversions, like making doom into a cover shooter or a hack and slash game.

 

[Wo0p]

54 minutes ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

None of what you listed is a turnoff for me, it's all about execution.

You can have the best ideas in the world but the map can still be trash. Same with resources of any kind. There are some incredible works with the default textures, there's also plenty eye-sores. Same applies to OTEX or CC4tex and all the others. And the same applies to custom weapons and enemies. They can be really good, enriching or re-imagining combat scenarios, or they can be you know, not that.

I kinda love that Custom Midi is in Advanced Features. And I kinda love how rd is low-key sabotaging this thread.

 

Also, you may want to add custom sky to the list. I don't think that counts as custom texture.

Making custom midis are definitely an advanced feature for myself as I'm not a composer in ANY sense of the word xD
But a custom sky texture is still a texture no? :o or do people distinguish between the two as different concepts? I'll put it up there if its confusing, np :)

[msx2plus]

the only thing that turns me off of playing a wad is it being a gzdoom project and being given no instruction as to what the intended option settings are. imo ship your wad with a config file i aint dealin with that shit lol

[Wo0p]

46 minutes ago, magicsofa said:

None of the things you listed have an inherent effect on the experience. For example, a custom monster could be a zombieman that drops health bonuses, or a ridiculously spammy bullet-hell boss with 50000 hp. One of those would bother me, the other wouldn't... so to just say "custom monsters good" or "custom monsters bad" isn't comprehensive enough.

 

The main thing that turns me off from a WAD is if it will take a really long time to complete. That could be because it's insanely hard, obscure with its puzzles/progression, or just huge. Either way I don't have 3 hours to sink into a single map.

That's a fair point but that's also why I'm not standing in the way of further elaboration on anyone's answers
I'm not out here saying "Lol shut up, just answer the questionnaire. Don't care 'bout yo words foo'." after all :)

 

Quote

the only thing that turns me off of playing a wad is it being a gzdoom project and being given no instruction as to what the intended option settings are. imo ship your wad with a config file i aint dealin with that shit lol

Accessibility is definitely a user-friendly thing to delve into when making a WAD! Whether its difficulty, source port and settings as you said :)

Edited May 11, 2023 by Wo0p

[faad3e]

3 minutes ago, msx2plus said:

the only thing that turns me off of playing a wad is it being a gzdoom project and being given no instruction as to what the intended option settings are. imo ship your wad with a config file i aint dealin with that shit lol

 

Second this, its very important to state whether you have to crouch/jump/use freelook/ what compsettings/port etc

[Gez]

31 minutes ago, BGreener said:

I’m sure if I had to make a Doom “rocket jump” or cross some pencil-thin platforms just to progress a map I’d probably be turned off, but I don’t know of any maps that do this. Pencil-thin platforms for secrets I may be okay with.

Frog and Toad.

 

Now that's something I won't even bother attempting. But it's kind of extreme. I wouldn't say platforming in itself is a turnoff for me, but when it's done like this, it is.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

29 minutes ago, Gez said:

Frog and Toad.

Toilet of the Gods MAP04 also comes to mind. How about juggling an archie as well as pencil-thin platforms? Or the endurance test that is Dance on the Water MAP05..

[Helm]

Making art is an inchoate process, experiencing art is opaque... why people bounce off of product is something data analysts do their best to understand but I think designing art or a game from a data analysis POV is a dead-end and much experience in the video-game industry backs this. Make your stuff from the heart, don't waste your time, if it's for free (and I thank you if it is) it's not strictly a product, it is culture. It'll find some audience.

The number one reason I drop a long set is an abundance of hurtfloor stopping exploration. However I've also dropped stunning sets with no problems because my attention span is this, and I have returned to sets I have dropped for good reasons and found them quite a better fit, then. 

Philosophers talk about 'mood', as in human mood, as a very underappreciated aspect of how we do opinion forming. Don't take people's positions in one point in time too seriously, people love to talk about why they do this and that but the epistemics of this is suspect, what people do most when they 'explain themselves' is convey their mood, and moods shift.

[Kwisior]

Nothing you mentioned in the questionnaire turns me off from playing a WAD. I will say however that the last WAD I quit (but will eventually beat) was Brotherhood of Ruin. So I guess resource deprivation to a point where I'm confused as to whether pistol starting was intended is a big turn-off for me.

I do enjoy it though if it's a completely intended and transparent design choice, like in the Chord series or Ancient Aliens' MAP19.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Kwisior

[maxmanium]

2 hours ago, Wo0p said:

 

What would you define as "unnecessary" resource deprivation? For instance let's say you're playing a WAD that emphasises something close to realism and ammo can only be found in specific location such as guard houses and ammo trucks or some such. Some would say that increases their sense of immersion into the situation, but maybe you see that as unnecessary? There's no wrong answer, I'm just curious :)

 

If there is a reason for the resource deprivation (even simply including difficulty, to an extent), that is fine. I'm more talking about something which is not properly balanced. Unless I know ahead of time to make every shot count, I wouldn't like it to have to punch everything just because of a few misses.

[Bobby :D]

The author being a massive asshole

[Ravendesk]

2 hours ago, BGreener said:

I’m sure if I had to make a Doom “rocket jump” or cross some pencil-thin platforms just to progress a map I’d probably be turned off, but I don’t know of any maps that do this.

I know quite a few, can recommend whenever you feel like getting turned off.

 

[Wo0p]

32 minutes ago, maxmanium said:

 

If there is a reason for the resource deprivation (even simply including difficulty, to an extent), that is fine. I'm more talking about something which is not properly balanced. Unless I know ahead of time to make every shot count, I wouldn't like it to have to punch everything just because of a few misses.

 

Thanks for the explanation, I think I understand what you're saying. It's more to do with expectations going into the WAD and/or if there is actually mathematically enough ammo to deal with all the monsters without having to punch half the map to death.

31 minutes ago, Bobby "J said:

The author being a massive asshole

 

How very human of you :D

[xScavengerWolfx]

Small turn off: Stock doom 1 / doom 2 midis (i'm talking E1M1 At doom's gates and Map 01 running from evil), having stronger enemies with low tier weapons unless it's doom 1 mapping then i can understand, using textures that don't mix well together and trying to be edgy or cool by stripping health and armor away from the player unless your doing plutoina then that's ok to do.

 

Big turn off: Oh boy i might get some shit for this hot take but i'll say it anyways.

 

I don't like super hyper architecture style maps, i feel like it's more like "oh look at me! I can make a city out of 30+ year old game engine and i have a bigger rooster then most mappers" but not all of them feel like that.

 

I don't like slaughter maps at all. Slaughter maps feel like a power fantasy, you with big guns (insert AC/DC big gun meme here) and the whole horde of the damned in a arena, not my cup of tea.

 

I don't like dickish traps / hard to get to secrets that just ruins the fun if you have to do weird ass puzzles just to get a health bonus in a secret or going into a room and getting crushed for trying to re supply on ammo. If your going to do a dickish / hard to get to secret at least make it worth wild you know. 

 

Making levels that are either way too big to finish or broken to the point of no clipping. I could not tell you how many wads i've played where i either never finished or had to noclip my way to the exit because of how huge they are. Good example of this is Doom Zero. To me Doom Zero is a good mega wad no doubt but some of the levels are just way to big to finish to the point that i have to noclip to finish the level.

 

Finally the biggest turn off is....Getting tired of doom 2 wads in general. Now before i get slammed with the whole "but Scav! Doom 2 has a lot more to offer then Doom 1 you scrub!" Yes i know, i do mapping for doom 2 hell i've made two maps for a community project, but the reason why i'm tired of doom 2 wads in general is i just don't like feeling like a power house and tearing through enemies like paper. I think of Doom 1 and Doom 2 like this:

 

Doom 1: Is it a power fantasy? Yes but. Yes it's a power fantasy but your also vulnerable because of the limited health, ammo, power ups and weapons. Since i started mapping in doom 1 i love the whole working with in the limited resources i have.

 

Doom 2: Is it a power fantasy? Yes. The reason why is doom 2 is basically "here's all the weapons, armor, power ups and weapons at your palm of your hand". I mean i still like doom 2 but i'm getting tired of feeling like i'm a brick house with over powered weapons and not vulnerable to make me feel like i'm in danger and have to plan out my attacks.

 

Over all when it comes to which one i like better and which one i don't, I'm liking doom 1 more then doom 2 only because i like the feeling of being vulnerable and being limited to what i have to fight enemies where as in doom 2 it's a power fantasy because your a brick house and have over powered weapons to tear through hoards of enemies like paper.

 

*I want to quickly make a disclaimer that this is all my personal option and i am NOT here to start a flame war over which one is better and which one is trash. I don't like starting flame wars there pointless and everyone can agree to disagree on things. I just wanted to throw my option out there so if i offended you some how and some way...well what can i say? Sorry?

[Jacek Bourne]

14 minutes ago, xScavengerWolfx said:

 

Doom 1: Is it a power fantasy? Yes but. Yes it's a power fantasy but your also vulnerable because of the limited health, ammo, power ups and weapons. Since i started mapping in doom 1 i love the whole working with in the limited resources i have.

 

Doom 2: Is it a power fantasy? Yes. The reason why is doom 2 is basically "here's all the weapons, armor, power ups and weapons at your palm of your hand". I mean i still like doom 2 but i'm getting tired of feeling like i'm a brick house with over powered weapons and not vulnerable to make me feel like i'm in danger and have to plan out my attacks.

Have you tried playing doom 2 maps with limited resources? Based on this I think you might enjoy them because they fit your reasoning for preferring doom 1.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Jacek Bourne

[Maribo]

The only thing that will make me bail on a wad is if the mapper didn't bother to replace D_RUNNIN with literally anything else.

 

I think rd's post is easily the best one in this thread, but there was another post in a thread somewhat adjacent to the purpose of this thread, so let me grab that:

On 5/6/2023 at 5:25 PM, msx2plus said:

this thread is all wrong. we shouldn't be talking about "this mad has a bad concept". we should be pitching new, novel concepts that are bad, and should be created immediately.

You should always be re-examining things that you think are turn offs, because one day you might find that something that once repulsed you is now a growing fascination. Take notes not only on things you like but also things you dislike, and ask yourself whether it's a truly bad concept, or if it's really as big of an issue as you think. Maybe you just need a new perspective, or you can take the idea and put your own spin on it and make it into something that you love.

[Wo0p]

I'm not looking to focus-tailor my wads with input garnered from this thread... please see the updated OP's edit section.

[Goldar]

• Compulsory puzzles, without which it is impossible to proceed - one or two can be intriguing but when it's too heavy-handed, it's a personal turn-off
• No balance between map exploration and rewarding fights. I think most of Lost Civ is an example of how to do this well
• I don't see it that often in the wads i've played so far, but no gradual build in difficulty from one map to the next - i'm talking about going from a mildly challenging map to surprise!slaughter

[SPG]

I'm still a newb when it comes to Doom WADs, having focused most of my time so far on just the official stuff. The only non-official WADs I've played so far have been SIGIL, Brutal Doom, and a touch of FreeDoom, as well as a few Alien-related WADs, but I'm definitely considering taking a variety tour of the best and/or most influential WADs out there at some point. If I do, though, I'll have to avoid the "extra challenging" ones because I barely managed Plutonia on HMP and I don't have a strong interest to "git gud" so that'll probably limit a lot of my options.

So as it applies to your questionnaire, the short answer is "I don't know" for most of them. The idea of mandatory puzzles/secrets sounds like the only thing I could imagine is a hard pass, but even that might be fine? Hard to say. The more a WAD changes things up, though, the more it's likely not to feel "Doom" to me, which doesn't mean it's bad, and I might even still want to play it, but I do generally play Doom for the "Doom feel" so I don't have a problem with "vanilla-style" so to speak. A lot like my ice cream preferences, I suppose. XD

[ICID]

I have to agree with others here who have said "it depends."

 

For most of these things, I have preferences, but in almost all cases I can think of something that breaks my preference that I love. For example, I mostly prefer custom MIDIs (anyone who's played as many 90s WADs as I have gets sick to death of D_RUNNIN) but for mapsets that are specifically trying to emulate the feel of the original games it can be crucial for setting the atmosphere - I'm thinking of Doom the Way Id Did, No End In Sight, or this week's Hyperspeed as maps that all would feel worse without the original music.

 

I usually roll my eyes at maps that use portals to emulate Room-over-Room, a thing that didn't exist and didn't need to exist in OG Doom, but this year's obvious awards frontrunner, MyHouse, wouldn't feel the same without it. (Funnily enough, this map also intentionally uses D_RUNNIN for its first section.)

 

I think that the Doom II bestiary is pretty much perfect (with the possible exception of Barons of Hell), but my favorite WAD of all time, Antaresian Legacy, is full of weird new monsters.

 

Heck, Thelokk's [Untitled] was one of my favorite mapsets of last year, and it deliberately does a ton of stuff "wrong" - like having intentional softlocks, making it impossible to get all kills and secrets in most maps, and even having one level that lacks an exit - all in order to create a sense of dread and unease for a mapset that's themed around aging and death.

I think the only thing that truly turns me off - and I'm not accusing OP of doing this at all, they asked a fair question - is when a map feels like it's being made for community standards' sake rather than the author's. If everything feels like part of a coherent vision and is executed with care, you can get away with pretty much anything. When I get the sense that a WAD lacks a distinct personality or feels a little too polished, I get bored.

[Capellan]

1. One or two is not an issue.  I'm not interested in a totally revamped bestiary

2. Again, a few tweaks are okay, but the more that is changed, the less I'm apt to play it

3. This is fine

4. Not generally a fan

5. A few tweaks are okay

6. Not generally a fan

7. If it doesn't run in PrBoom+, I'm not going to play it

8. Don't care

9. n/a
10. If it doesn't run in PrBoom+, I'm not going to play it ... if you can do it in PrBoom, though, all good

11. Same as 10

12. This is fine

13. Big turn off

14. Fine

15. Medium to big turn off

16. No issues

17. no issues

18. No issues

19 - 22. If it doesn't run in PrBoom+, I'm not going to play it

23. Don't care; I play with -nomusic

24. n/a

[Underqualified_Gunman]

For me it depends i ussually play with at least one gameplay mod at a time so if your mod is compatible ill play it , if not might require wiretearing before that happens. I do greatly appreaciate maps that keep the new enemies and weapons as seperate files. For example ashes and hideous destructor are very compelling. And high noon drifter and strange aeons. Its also really fun to take few friends into ancient aliens with hideous destructor and a couple mechs. Each map becomes a exercise in precision of shots and positioning. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by ghostboy1225

[pcorf]

YES = Turns me off.

NO = I'm fine with that.

 

What turns you off from playing a Doom WAD?

Enemies

1. NEW / CUSTOM enemies? NO

2. CLASSIC enemies with modified stats/aesthetics? NO

3. MOSTLY classic enemies but with an added custom enemy or two? NO

Armoury
4. NEW / CUSTOM weapons? NO

5. CLASSIC weapons with modified stats/aesthetics? NO

6. MOSTLY classic weapons but with an added custom weapon or two? NO

Mechanics

7. CUSTOM mechanics such as RELOADING, status effects, new resources to manage? NO

8. CUSTOM UI? NO

9. Something else I can't think of relating to mechanics?
Gameplay

10. Slaughterma-... nope. Not gonna touch that. YES

10. OPTIONAL story elements? (Text logs, intermission screens, textfiles background etc.) NO

11. COMPULSORY story elements? (NPC interaction, cinematic segments etc.) YES

12. NO story NO

13. MANDATORY puzzles / secrets YES

14. OPTIONAL puzzles / secrets NO

15. Platforming NO

Textures

16. Frankentextures? (Classic textures mishmashed with script offsets to make new textures etc.) NO

17. CUSTOM textures? NO

18. Textures that strikingly stand out from the aesthetics of Doom. NO

Advanced Features

19. Slopes NO

20. Dynamic Lighting NO

21. Room over Room NO

22. Polyobjects NO

23. Custom MIDIs NO

24. Something else I can't think of relating to advanced features and/or music?

 

 

[Jiggahertz]

What turns me off from playing a WAD the most is if it looks too similar to the IWADs AKA too vanilla-y looking in terms of aesthetics. A map could have the most amazing gameplay of all time but if the aesthetics look too vanilla or look like it was made in the 90s, I still won't enjoy the map

 

That's why pretty much all of the WADs that I like the most tend to be WADs like Sigma-X, Refracted Reality, The Slaughter Spectrum, Ancient Aliens, Elementalism, etc.

 

Plutonia is pretty much the sole exception to this rule, for some reason the aesthetics of Plutonia and the way the levels look don't bother me, and I actually like the look, despite the WAD coming out in 1996 and therefore only using the textures and other design elements that were available at that time

[akolai]

The author not being a massive asshole

[Kinetic]

14 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

This thread did remind me that I am really in the mood for extreme resource deprivation, especially of ammo. Being forced to dance around enemies is super fun. Also makes it very easy all exploration, secrets, and optional content to feel worthwhile. 

Extreme resource deprivation is awesome, I really like the added value/importance to every item, stimpack, ammo clip, every hit you take, etc..

 

The only thing I'd say are turnoffs for me are maps without engaging combat, which is very subjective, but if I don't find the combat all that engaging then I probably won't like it. An exception to this would be something like Lost Civilization, where the combat and gameplay really isn't my thing, but the visuals and architecture is so amazing and unique (and also clearly the focus of the wad) that I appreciate and like the wad. I probably would not replay it, but I like it, if that makes sense. Another exception I guess would be platforming maps (i.e. Dance on the Water Map05) or extreme exploration maps (Dance on the Water Map06).

 

6 hours ago, Maribo said:

The only thing that will make me bail on a wad is if the mapper didn't bother to replace D_RUNNIN with literally anything else.

D_RUNNIN not being replaced isn't great, but at the same time for me I don't mind it since I can just turn music volume to 0 and put my own music on through a playlist. Like if sunder had default music, I would definitely still play it.

[Maribo]

9 minutes ago, Kinetic said:

D_RUNNIN not being replaced isn't great, but at the same time for me I don't mind it since I can just turn music volume to 0 and put my own music on through a playlist. Like if sunder had default music, I would definitely still play it.

Largely depends on what year the map is from. If it's from '95 or whatever when replacing MIDIs was still arcane magic then I don't really mind, but if it's some random tech base map that just got posted in WADs & Mods 30 minutes ago, I'd rather go play something else since it's not likely to be especially groundbreaking or mindblowing. I don't typically play Doom without in-game music except when I'm grinding some sort of demo and the map's midi is annoying/terrible/etc, my brain values the link between a map's chosen soundtrack and the map itself pretty highly. I guess I could just start SLADE-ing in random midis for maps that don't replace it, but that doesn't really feel right either.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Maribo

[Kinetic]

Just now, Maribo said:

Largely depends on what year the map is from. If it's from '95 or whatever when replacing MIDIs was still arcane magic then I don't really mind, but if it's some random tech base map that just got posted in WADs & Mods 30 minutes ago, I'd rather go play something else since it's not likely to be especially groundbreaking or mindblowing. I don't typically play Doom without in-game music except when I'm grinding some sort of demo and the map's midi is annoying/terrible/etc, my brain values the link between a map's chosen soundtrack and the map itself pretty highly. I guess I could just start SLADE-ing in random midis for maps that don't replace it, but that doesn't really feel right either.

Yea I play with in-game music if it's a blind and casual first playthrough of a map/wad, and I also definitely link music with map enjoyment, since music can absolutely carry what otherwise might be a sucky map to me, music is such a large part of the experience. For demo-recording, I pretty much always have to change the music to my playlist, listening to the track for a map for speedrun attempts very rarely doesn't get old.

 

I think D_RUNNIN and default iwad music (besides TNT iwad music <3) can often be a huge negative for a map, but if it's super strong in other aspects, then I can still enjoy it.