2D peaks: Mario vs Sonic

[FrancisT218]

Probably the pair of old franchises most designed to compete with each other, which pair of games are your preferred pick? (Regardless of quality of other games in the respective series.)

 

I know Sonic Mania is much newer, but still think it should be included among the best the series has to offer in 2D, with both a few new zones and tasteful expansions to old zones.

Edited May 17, 2023 by FrancisT218
Expanded wording some for alternate Sonic option & Mario option

[Individualised]

These options are incredibly specific.

[dasho]

Donkey Kong Country and Donkey Kong Country 2

[FrancisT218]

11 minutes ago, Individualised said:

These options are incredibly specific.

You can vote the first option for any Mario pairing, third for any Sonic pairing besides 3&K and Mania. I'll edit slightly to expand existing choices.

 

I didn't explicitly include an alternate Mario option or other Sonic games as to not pad out options and because these tend to be very widely considered the best of their 2D games, especially with regard to SMB3/SMW as the best 2D Mario's.

Edited May 17, 2023 by FrancisT218

[openroadracer]

Honestly, Sonic 2 with S3&K would have to be my pick.

I just always preferred the vibe that the Sonic franchise had over Mario.

[Al-Faris M]

Sonic 3&K and Sonic Mania, they don't just rely on platforming like the 2D mario games or some parts of Sonic 1, but also on momentum, speed and exploration.

[Noiser]

2D Sonic, 3D Mario

[Guff dotD]

I prefer Mario 3 over World (just IMO), but I don't have anything against the Classic Sonic games.

[vyruss]

porque no los dos

[FrancisT218]

8 minutes ago, vyruss said:

porque no los dos

The point is which you like more, of course it's fine to like both

[Eurisko]

Any of the classic Sonics for me. The pinnacle of 2D platform gaming.

 

[Kwisior]

Ninja Gaiden is better than both when it comes to 2D (except for the 3rd one of course).

[DNSKILL5]

Personally I find them to be too different to really compare. Sure, they are both side scrollers, but the way the games play are quite different. 
 

The argument could be which game is better, or what hardware was better and these games tend to be used to make points in those arguments. People who know more than I do about the console hardwares will get really really technical with the latter, but plenty of Mario-like games existed on Sega consoles, and the NES and SNES were certainly capable of having the so called “blast processing” in some sense. So arguing over hardware doesn’t really determine much other than who likes what console more really, because it is almost never done in a way that isn’t entirely biased.

 

As for the former, again, it cannot be argued without some sort of bias, especially from those of us who may have grown up with one console over the other. People who grew up with both consoles available to them or grew up long after these consoles were newer hardware will likely have a different opinion entirely than those that grew up on the NES/SNES and those who grew up with Sega MD/Gen. 
 

Looping this back to put both arguments together; the main competition that existed in the past was based on marketing and mascots, not so much the games themselves. Which mascot could appeal to people more to entice console and game sales, and how can we convince potential buyers they’re getting the better deal going with us over them? The reality is more like both consoles had a lot to offer, and Sonic and Mario have both cemented their place in gaming history as well as pop culture in general forever.

 

If I could only pick one? It would be Mario because he sets the standard of what a gaming mascot should represent. Mario is something children and adults can love and appreciate, young and old can have fun and memorable moments without having to really play every Mario game in existence. Whatever sort of game they’re looking for there’s very likely some sort of Mario game that fits that genre, not entirely of course but it’s still quite expansive. Sonic has all of this going for him too, don’t misunderstand me here, but Mario has been at it just a tad bit longer than Sonic, and there’s really no debate there because dates and times prove that to be the case. So yeah, I’d go with Mario, but as far as the games go, I would say they tie for me. I love both characters and many of the games from both series. I would say Mario tends to have less clunkers than Sonic, but Sonic has more than enough classics to make up for that. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by CAM-7EA

[GarrettChan]

Castlevania

[Rudolph]

As someone who grew up with both, I would say Mario.

 

While I have fond memories of playing Sonic on the Sega Genesis, I do not find it enjoyable anymore. Also, in hindsight, Mario is a much more versatile character than Sonic: Mario can run, fly, throw projectiles, ride dinosaurs and drive vehicles whereas Sonic can go fast...

Edited May 17, 2023 by Rudolph

[magicsofa]

3 hours ago, FrancisT218 said:

The point is which you like more, of course it's fine to like both

 

I think they meant that Mario 2 is their favorite

[vyruss]

3 minutes ago, magicsofa said:

 

I think they meant that Mario 2 is their favorite

sooper maro lan

[Stupid Bunny]

Where is Commander Keen

 

SMB3 is a near perfect game and I almost voted for it because of that. I love it. But then I noticed there’s an option for not having played from the other list so I figured that was the fairest option.  I actually grew up with the Sonic Adventure games on Dreamcast, rather than its predecessors, and love them both too, though they are obviously not 2D and arguably presage some questionable creative direction to come.

 

But yeah my real vote is for Commander Keen

[FrancisT218]

Sonic Adventure 1 is a game I like quite a bit, at least talking Sonic's campaign, including the hubworld. Like an 8 or 9/10 campaign. There are objectively 'dated' elements sure but they don't make it less fun for me, all in all I find it a good transition to 3D and in fact I would say it's just as enjoyable as Mario 64 if not moreso, especially since it has the focused high adrenaline action stages. Mario of course had way better 3D outings going forward but I don't think Sonic started out in 3D any less well.

[Guff dotD]

As an addendum to my previous post in this thread; a sore spot in the Mario Franchise are the bosses: Usually, you just wait for something to telegraph that it's able to be hit, jump on it, and then the boss starts attacking again and you wait again.

Another way to put it: Lackluster.

However, I think that Sonic gets its Boss Battles right; and that's one advantage Sonic has over the Mario Games.

[Doomkid]

SMB1, SMB3 and SMW are to side scrolling platformers as WOLF3D, DOOM and DOOM2 are to first person shooters - The first entry for each respectively blew open the floodgates to the genre, and in the followups, there’s an almost chess-like perfection to the balance of enemy types and power-ups for the player.

 

”A shell, an imp” is satisfying in a similar way to “A fireball, a koopa”. Balance is the goddamn name of the game with all these heavy-hitters mentioned above.

 

Similarly to what I mentioned above, I totally see an analogue between Duke and Sonic as well. The “spiritual spin-offs” with technically-cooler protagonist, technically-cooler levels, generally-flashier and in-your-face presentation - and in fairness simply damn good, damn solid games in their own right.
 

Frankly though, as much as Sonic and Duke do to distinguish themselves from their sources of inspiration, much of it comes off as gimmicks rather than really solid gameplay decisions that stand the test of time. Speedy platformer gameplay can be done better - and frankly Sonic’s older titles, despite being damn good (to be clear) are filled with what I would call frustrating bullshit moments. The game encourages but also punishes speed, I think that’s my biggest beef. There’s no “inherent conflict of character behaviour and level design” like that in SMB3 and World.

 

EDIT: Damn, even the bosses line up in this comparison! Mario and Doom generally have shit boss fights, and Sonic and Duke both made a much better effort there!

 

Overall it’s a tough and very-oddly-specific choice, lol. I’m trying to limit it to the best two examples for each series from the 90s instead, since that’s a little more broad. (For me that means SMB3 and World VS Sonic 2 & 3, FWIW.)

 

TL;DR:

I prefer Coke to Pepsi,

I prefer Doom to Duke,

and I prefer Mario to Sonic.

[Mr. Freeze]

Nothing comes close to Mario through the original SMB all the way to 64. 

[Jello]

Super Mario Bros 2, and Super Mario World 2 are better than Sonic. And better than Super Mario Bros 3 and Super Mario World. Even if they weren't meant to be, they're better than "run fast and hit something and lose rings" or "stomp on Goombas and kick turtle shells".

[heliumlamb]

2d platforming peaked with dynamite headdy and daimakaimura. rocket knight adventures and kick master as well. maybe some panic restaurant too for good measure.

 

the jumping man is alright by default, generally good, and phenomenal in comparison to alex kidd, which is a far more direct and appropriate comparison. sonic from 2 and on uses momentum, trajectory and layered design in a way that was only matched by freedom planet in 2014. i am on the autism spectrum, so that should explain my emotions toward the needle mouse and all the needle mouse's friends and adversaries, and that includes sonic '06.

[prfunky]

I'm about to derail the living sh*t out of this topic. For the record, I voted

"Tie, like both pairs equally". I did not grow up with either NES or Genesis.

These are things that were invented after I was an adult already. I'm from

back in the day when Atari and Colecovision ruled over Intellivision. Obvs.,

NES was before Genesis. I've never been a huge fan of the original Super.

I remember the un-super Mario Bros. in the arcade which was kicka$$ due

to two players playing simultaneously side by side, both the characters and

standing literally side-by-side your opponent. SMB was "okay" to me but

Nintendo really stepped the game up with SMB3 ~ that title is very good.

I also enjoyed the original Zelda on NES but the title that I didn't run into

until much later in life that rules them all is Kirby's Adventure. 

 

I have a Super Nintendo system these days which I don't play enough

because I spend most of my gaming time with Doom. However, I've

enjoyed the Super Mario World on it and look at it as just as good a game

as SMB3 on the NES but with better color. Once again, I have a Kirby title

on the SNES as well, Kirby Super Star, which is absolutely awesome with,

once again, better color than the NES title. But the thing I like most about

the SNES is a very good port of, and even a nice expansion of one of my

more memorable arcade games back in the day, Mr. Do!. The Mr. Do!

franchise was almost exclusively arcade. The first home version on the

Colecovision was a handicapped disaster of a port. The Atari 400/800

computer version was much better and Mr. Do!'s Castle was also out for

that computer. To the best of my knowledge, the other three titles I know

of in the franchise are only available through MAME; Mr. Do's Wild Ride,

Do! Run Run and the NEO-GEO game Neo Mr. Do!

Spoiler

 

 

As for the Genesis, Sonic would have to be the whole reason for owning the

console to begin with. There are other titles of course, but the Sonic Team

did such a great job of eeking out the most performance of that console. I

really enjoy 2D games more than 3D with the exception of Doom. I've had

every stinking Genesis Sonic 2D title ever including, at one time, having the

32x expander just to play Knuckles Chaotix! As much as I've enjoyed these

titles though, I've got to plug a very similiar game for the PC:

Jazz Jackrabbit. The first one was for MS-DOS and was so close in dimensions

to Sonic that the casual observer would be forgiven for thinking it was the same

game. Jazz Jackrabbit 2 was for Windows and expanded the view window of

Jazz' world quite a bit. I was just playing JJ2 last month!

 

Finally, I want to make a little note here for those of you who are more fascinated

with the history of video game making. Back in the day, before NES, the best

version of Mario's original title, Donkey Kong, was not the cartridge included with

every new ColecoVision. It was the one for Atari 400/800 computers. It featured

all four levels of the original arcade version, not the three, loosely interpreted

versions on the ColecoVision (which was decent but buggy). Some years ago, I

got to read the story of this port from the author's viewpoint and loved it. I've dug

it up here from the Internet Archive Wayback Machine:

Donkey Kong and Me

Enjoy. And thank you for reading this thread derailment!

 

[Sonikkumania]

Somari. 

[FrancisT218]

@prfunkyI've heard Kirby Super Star is one of the top platformers on SNES. Not up to DKC2 or Super Metroid levels, but there with Super Castlevania, Mega Man X, or Super Mario World and despite Kirby being a well known franchise Super Star is probably a bit less well known than the other SNES games. Haven't heard of Mr. Do myself either.

 

I played both Jazz Jackrabbit's as a kid! Sonic gets a gun, loses a *bit* of speed basically. I'm not sure how well they stand up though compared to say Sonic 2 or Sonic 3&K and they don't have any ports I'm aware of sadly.

 

Funnily Jazz Jackrabbit 2 was released only a few months before Sonic Adventure.

 

@heliumlamb I've got my eyes on Freedom Planet 2 especially, the SEQUEL that was released last year.

 

Also with that 06 mention, I like having Crisis City come back for Generations rather than being ignored. The P06 fangame is also more generally playable.

 

@Stupid BunnyI'd like to add in Sonic Adventure 1 I especialky have liked: the opening level Emerald Coast, the tornado in Windy Valley (possibly my favorite scene in the entire game, it hits hard here being from the USA which gets a lot of them!), the snowboarding in Ice Cap, and basically the whole of Speed Highway. I'm still on Red Mountain currently.

 

City Escape's also epic in SA2. No surprise it and Speed Highway showed up in Generations. But I dislike being forced to play mech and treasure hunt levels between speed levels.

Edited May 18, 2023 by FrancisT218

[Wyrmwood]

Where as I can get why some prefer Sonic (both my kids do) it's not even close for me, Mario all the way.

 

Your choices are very limited on this poll though, my actual two favorite 2d Mario games are Super Mario World and New Super Mario BrosU which feels like a direct sequel to it. Love Super Mario Maker 2 as well, probably spent more time on that one than any Mario game.

[lazygecko]

I don't think Sonic was intrinsically designed to compete with Mario. That was something that got tacked on later, as they already had a lot of the gameplay fundamentals worked out before they had even decided on a character. The base idea was to have this platform game based heavily on pinball physics, and the character design came later derived from that idea.

 

I also read this funny interview with Mark Cerny on his experiences working at Sega of Japan at the time, and when they presented their character design of Sonic to Sega of America they thought it was so awful it was unsalvageable, and they were instead planning on getting Will Vinton (the claymation animator making grotesque looking caricature figures) to design a mascot that would "properly resonate with American audiences".

[SealSpace]

Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World 1 all the fucking way.

 

2D Sonic games were pretty cool though. Had fun playing them on the Sonic Mega Collection (and Gems Collection) on the Gamecube back in middle school.