Could you enjoy "3D" games limited to a 2D square grid (Wolf3D, ROTT)?

[HQDefault]

TBH I assumed that I'd be in the same boat as you up until I actually bit the bullet and tried Wolf3D. To my surprise, I actually had quite a bit of fun with it. It definitely gets pretty repetitive if you play it for too long, but most of the levels don't last more than a couple minutes and the combat is always very satisfying, even if it is simple.

 

The only issue I have with these types of games is basically all of the source ports just ignore vertical mouse look... because, I mean... logically you obviously don't need it. But even if you never have a reason to look up and down in Wolf3D, my brain just absolutely hates not having vertical mouse look for some reason. It just feels super weird to me in a way I can't describe. I guess there is the GZDoom port of Wolfenstein 3D but the menus are all broken for me and it messes with your default settings so you have to change everything back later.

 

This is also the reason why I've only gotten through the first episode of the original Rise of the Triad, because you can't look up or down manually, but your character will do it automatically all the time, which is so bad that it actually gives me slight simulation sickness. The source port I tried did technically have full vertical mouse look but it felt absolutely terrible and it still doesn't stop the player from automatically looking up and down. I'm pretty sure that new ROTT remaster they're working on is supposed to have vertical mouse look, so I'm waiting on that before I try and finish the game.

[Jack9955]

I like playing Wolf3D because the main objective is to kill nazis!

[Kyka]

CoD basically is limited to a 2D grid. It just looks prettier.

[Asphalt]

I still enjoy them, I guess because I grew up with them. Wolf 3D, Corridor 7, Nitemare, Rise Of The Triad.

I had played them before ever knowing about Doom, Quake and Duke Nukem. Maybe ROTT I started playing around the same time as Doom, but I can't remember that clearly.

 

Anyway, those were definitely my first FPS experiences and back at the time I liked 'em a lot. They contributed in shaping me as a gamer.

I'm quite sure I didn't even care about the limitations, and all the levels looking the same, I just remember the good fun I had.

Also another game that I played in my very early days is Stonekeep. A little different, (it's a dungeon crawler RPG), but still all planar and grid-based.

So I think mostly it's a matter of being accustomed to raycasting engines from the start, and as I got older I learnt to appreciate those games for their historical value, and because they had been a fundamental part in the development of the technologies that moved the industry to more advanced 3D engines.

 

I find them fascinating. I think even some new releases, like Merger 3D and Templar, are worth a shot.

Templar is free-to-download on ITCH, if someone's interested. Short but good. It reminded me of Witchaven, but with guns.

[SealSpace]

As a fanboy of Wolf3d engine games like Corridor 7 and Blake Stone: AoG/PS and there were 2D "3D" games like them, I'd believe that would be an assuredly resounding yes. 

[Master O]

Civvie - Corridor 7 (Video does not allow embedding).

 

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Master O

[Dreamskull]

Theres a lot of things newer games get wrong. The biggest thing I can think of right now is how many active enemies there are on and off screen. Size and scale should be increasing, but its knee-capped for some reason. Its like theyre scared of scaling things up. The AI of Doom isnt even that advanced but I see Doom monsters doing a lot more than whats expected of them. Thats a huge strength for old gaming over modern gaming. It used to be that people would make excuse for this. You can have either graphics or gameplay, but theres no excuse anymore. We can have both, but they dont want to go in that direction. It makes me sad because from where Im standing, you wont see bigger and better. Youll see things capped down and held back.

 

The same goes for analogue DnD type games. Ive been waiting for some multilayor design, but it just doesnt happen. YES - it certainly COULD happen, but will it ever? Id like to think that we can get what we want eventually, but Ive waited a LONG time for some of these ideas to happen.

 

There used to be a lot of these types of games floating around when I was younger, but they were one and done. That era of gaming was odd to me, but it had character. I wouldnt neccesarily like a return to that era, but I really do want to see some of the design brought forward so it can be utilized for some benefit at the very least.

 

I was searching for a particular game I could use as an example of something I played back in the day, something lesser known, but I couldnt find it. It was essentially an extremely old maze shooter where all the monsters were various halloween type monsters.

 

I found it! Anyone ever play Nitemare 3D?

Edited May 28, 2023 by Dreamskull

[SealSpace]

1 hour ago, Master O said:

Civvie - Corridor 7 (Video does not allow embedding).

 

 

First a Corridor 7 video and now this dude Civvie11 does a Blake Stone video.

 

Finally lol! 

[houston]

The saminess of all of Wolf3D's rooms gives me headaches and bores me to tears, but I appreciate how they played into it as a little bit of a strength of theirs.

When you consider the limited ammunition pickups, the "Par" time system, hidden goodies like 1-ups, etc., you slowly start to realise that Wolf3D is actually primarily a maze game, with the tense and somewhat unfair action encounters only being a secondary objective. It's only once you draw out the entire thing on grid paper and plan out your route* that you'll be able to satisfy that par time condition OR effectively 100% the map without getting lost in the blue and gray labyrinth. The difficulty of orienting yourself and ever having enough ammunition at a given point without an external guide was intentional, it's the entire challenge of the game. (Well, aside from the boss maps.)

 

*The original game doesn't have an automapper. ecwolf isn't polite to tell you that its map system is technically a cheat, so that kind of killed my first playthrough.

[TheDanMarine]

Project Warlock (the first one, not 2) is the final boss of these kinds of games. Heavily recommended if you want a wolf3D style grid game with a ton of modernization and quality of life upgrades. funnily enough, it does the same thing chasm does with the short "level packs" that switch themes. I wouldn't be surprised if the dev has played that game... kinda seems like every throwback shooter dev has! 

[CorianderCastor]

I enjoyed the Catacomb Adventure Series enough to have, not only, played through all three, but also to enjoy playing the little game inspired by them by the creator of Magic and Metal Zero, despite its nature. An aside on that latter game: I prefer my "turn-based" RPGs to be phased-based, i.e. we go. And, when it comes to grid-based blobbers, the grid makes more sense in certain cases, such as: Dungeon Master clones, Rogue-esque ones, or map & grid types. Of course, I'm such a filthy popamole casual that I even like the heavily flawed Wiz8, and can stomach the cemetery retro.

[Master O]

55 minutes ago, CorianderCastor said:

I enjoyed the Catacomb Adventure Series enough to have, not only, played through all three, but also to enjoy playing the little game inspired by them by the creator of Magic and Metal Zero, despite its nature.

 

 

https://github.com/ArnoAnsems/CatacombGL/releases/tag/v0.5.4-beta

[CorianderCastor]

I think I used Reflection Keen. That reminds me, Hovertank 3D is pretty snazzy too.

[MrFlibble]

I think it's always good to look at these things in a perspective. I vividly remember playing Wolf3D (I think it was some hacked version which I've never seen afterwards) for the first time back in 1995 or 1996. For a start, that you could walk around those mazes and shoot stuff alone was an amazing thing in itself. It was at a friend's place and he also had Heretic, which I played a bit as well. I can say that for the nine-year-old me, the more minimalist design of Wolf3D was actually less distracting compared to Heretic, with more contrasting colours, less decorations, no height variety and no floor or ceiling textures. (On a second thought, this might also have been partially due to the fact that the contrast setting in Heretic was cranked up too high but I'm not sure.)

 

Then there was a long, long break, after which I played Wolf3D sometime in the early 2000s I guess, and already that was mostly for nostalgic reasons, although I did enjoy it for a while. I then tried Blake Stone: Aliens of Gold (a game I'd never heard of back in the 90s), and boy, was it a step ahead of Wolf3D in all directions. Civvie11 is completely right, this game gives a lot more sense of place than Wolf3D (although I do enjoy some of the areas there too, when it's not just stone walls everywhere), has a bigger enemy roster and more features, and even the softer colours in the palette make it much more nice to look at. I positively enjoyed exploring the shareware episode and looking up for secrets. It's cool that on a higher difficulty, you might run out of ammo or low on health and then go back to the previous floor to grab energy packs or health items that you might've left. It's arguably one of the best Wolf3D engine games, especially if you don't count ROTT because it introduced so many engine updates.

 

ROTT, well, one of my favourites too, which I also discovered sometime in the mid-2000s. It's a one-of-a-kind game in many ways which immediately made me feel nostalgic, even though I'd never heard of it back in the 90s too. Compliments to @leejacksonaudio for the great soundtrack. Here, I also had fun looking for secrets and generally poking around the levels. Lovely sky art in there too. Sadly, one thing with all these games is that you need a lot of time to properly explore and try out every wall or place for secrets and stuff, a luxury that I don't often have these days. They're really reflecting the times when you had way less distractions and could spend a whole day with them, without any care in the world. Mmm, lovely.