Is DOOM 2 meant to be played continuously?

[Skerbergs]

I'm trying to pistol start every level in Doom 2, I didn't struggle until I reached level 4. I can't continue because I run out of ammo and it just doesn't seem doable. Am I missing something?

[dasho]

What led you to believe that it wasn't?

[Skerbergs]

Just now, dasho said:

What led you to believe that it wasn't?

Idk, just trying to challenge myself. It's just that in DOOM it is perfectly possible to beat every level pistol start, while with DOOM 2 it seems almost impossible.

[Tangra]

If it wasn't meant to be played continiously, they wouldn't have allowed you to carryover weapons, armor and amunition from level to level.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Tangra666

[Rudolph]

8 minutes ago, Skerbergs said:

Idk, just trying to challenge myself. It's just that in DOOM it is perfectly possible to beat every level pistol start, while with DOOM 2 it seems almost impossible.

Let me guess: all those hitscanners make you reluctant to venture out of the starting room?

 

I just launched MAP04 on Pistol Start and I see what you mean. I have never tried so before and I admit even I was struggling early on.

 

It can be tricky, but I ultimately managed to do it. Ammo was not the issue so much as the early barrage of hitscanners.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Rudolph

[Skerbergs]

Well then I guess I'm doing something wrong. Thanks everyone!

[Rudolph]

Tell us how it goes, but I recommend focusing on letting the early Chaingunners to get as close to the starting room as possible before killing them so that you can easily run out, grab their weapons and resume shooting with the Chaingun.

[Firedust]

I enjoy continous playthroughs mainly because I feel pistol starts are immersion breaking - unless there are death exits of course.

[RataUnderground]

In fact, there is a well-known anecdote that many Doom 2 maps are easier than they should be because most are balanced for Pistol Start. 
 

[Gregor]

It is normal to struggle when you first try out pistol starts. But I guarantee you that every single map in Doom 2 (and pretty much every notable PWAD ever released) can be completed from a pistol start. The maps have to function that way because when you die, normally you start the map from a pistol start (GZDoom has autosaves at the beginning of every map by default but that's not how OG Doom worked), so the level must contain all the weapons, ammo and health the player needs to beat the map. Otherwise it's just bad level design. So whether the map designer wanted you to pistol start or not, they had to balance the resources in the map in such a way to make it possible to and in fact still have a good time from a pistol start, because otherwise lots of people would have softlocked themselves by simply dying.

 

Once you get the hang of it, pistol starts are more enjoyable than continuous play, because by only using the resources given to you by the map, you get a much better feeling for the map's design and intended progression.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Gregor

[The Final Event]

yeah bro yeah

[Kwisior]

While some maps are pretty tough with this playstyle, they were balanced around it. In a way this is the intended style.

[ICID]

All Doom 2 maps are technically beatable from pistol start, but you can tell it's not the intended experience because you either have to die or cheat to achieve it. After all, how many games have you played that expect you to kill yourself and start over before every level? :)

The "pistol start balance", such as it is, was there in case you died in a level without saving rather than being a top priority. And you're right, in Doom 2 it's a bit hit and miss compared to the other IWADs, probably because of how quickly the game was rushed to release. For example, Barrels o' Fun is famously pretty unpleasant on pistol starts because it makes you fight a bunch of pain elementals with only the combat shotgun and chaingun.

 

Of course, you can play Doom however you want - if you want to challenge yourself with the harder experience, go for it! I'm sure you're already aware, but there's many YouTubers who play from pistol starts, and watching those videos may help you get a sense of the best routes, especially for these early hitscanner hell levels.

[Jello]

Most of the enemies in level 4 are hitscanners, and low tier. Let them kill each other and then reap the rewards. You want to attract the Chaingunners by opening the door, firing a few shots, and then closing it. They'll clear out most of your problems pretty quickly. Every map in Doom 2 is completely beatable from a pistol start on UV, some are more difficult than others, but they are beatable. 

 

Doom 2 was designed to be played continuously, but it was also designed so that every level could be beaten from a pistol start, and it's amazing how well they managed to make it work.

[Individualised]

Yes and no. id intended you to play the final product continuously but the levels themselves weren't designed that way, and were put together at the end of development in order to flow in a way that makes them work best when played continuously.

[JacketEternal]

2 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Yes and no. id intended you to play the final product continuously but the levels themselves weren't designed that way, and were put together at the end of development in order to flow in a way that makes them work best when played continuously.

Exactly this, sandy petersen plays doom with pistol starts since thats the way he designed the levels. But continuous play is whats meant for more casual audiences.

I say continuous is fine until you get bored of it. But at the end of the day, the only 'correct' way to play doom is the way you want to.

[bofu]

The levels are beatable from a pistol start (though some are absolutely miserable experiences with it — looking at you. Tricks and Traps), but the thing is, pistol starts were a punishment for dying. One that they even allowed you to plan around by letting you save your game whenever you want. Pistol starting is a more challenging way to play, and if you enjoy that, then go for it, but it's not the "right" way to play Doom any more than playing on Nightmare is.

[Maximum Matt]

I may as well go on a quick rant right here about how much better Doom II would've been if it had carried over the episodic structure from Doom I - it would've forced pistol starts at least three times in the game, and c'mon, who wouldn't like starting from scratch and fighting to get back all your weapons again multiple times??

[Lonespacemarine]

On 6/4/2023 at 2:31 AM, Skerbergs said:

Idk, just trying to challenge myself. It's just that in DOOM it is perfectly possible to beat every level pistol start, while with DOOM 2 it seems almost impossible.

I know I'm offtopic but Your profile photo is bad to the bone

[Lonespacemarine]

I would recommend punching the crap out of the demons if you run out of ammo. I used to do that to save ammo

5 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

I may as well go on a quick rant right here about how much better Doom II would've been if it had carried over the episodic structure from Doom I - it would've forced pistol starts at least three times in the game, and c'mon, who wouldn't like starting from scratch and fighting to get back all your weapons again multiple times??

That absolutely sucks.

[Roofi]

Pistol Starting became a thing in the community for various reasons but idclev xx is a cheat code before everything else. You can still kill yourself in order to restart the level but you keep your weapons otherwise. So, of course Doom II is meant to be play continuously.

[Anarkzie]

I have not played this level in ages, I literally jumped at two points in my playthrough. I had no problems with ammo as most of the enemies drop some. The last yellow key area was a bit of a challenge because I did not know where I was being hit from.

 

You probably just need to practice a little.

[Azuris]

On 6/3/2023 at 10:56 PM, Skerbergs said:

I'm trying to pistol start every level in Doom 2, I didn't struggle until I reached level 4. I can't continue because I run out of ammo and it just doesn't seem doable. Am I missing something?

 

Pistol Starts are a Thing because they considered, that someone could die and has to start without Weapons.

It never was a true Feature, People themself made it a Challange to Pistol Start.

 

Just similiar to shoot em ups, when you die, you'll be able to regain your Power Ups.

It is harder, but not impossible.

[Yousuf Anik]

On 6/4/2023 at 2:56 AM, Skerbergs said:

I'm trying to pistol start every level in Doom 2, I didn't struggle until I reached level 4. I can't continue because I run out of ammo and it just doesn't seem doable. Am I missing something?

Try with the easiest difficulty ITYTD then, you will have lot of ammo :)

[idbeholdME]

Weapons, ammo, health and armor carry over by default, the game has a save feature, so yes.

 

Pistol starting is a punishment for not saving or an artificial challenge.

 

That being said, the vast majority of map makers make maps that are beatable from pistol start. I would honestly be interested in 32 level megaWADs that were balanced for continuous play only for a change.

Edited June 5, 2023 by idbeholdME

[Kwisior]

9 minutes ago, idbeholdME said:

That being said, the vast majority of map makers make maps that are beatable from pistol start. I would honestly be interested in 32 level megaWADs that were balanced for continuous play only for a change.

I don't know of any megawads like this, but Avactor was made with continuous play in mind.

[CasualScrub]

If it wasn't then I imagine they would've taken away your weapons outside of the pistol at the start of each level. While pistol-starting was something that was taken into consideration when designing the levels, that was never the intention of the "true" way to play. It's just an extra challenge that one can do. You're supposed to carry your whole arsenal with you through the game.

[Al-Faris M]

Didn't Sandy Peterson mention in one of his videos that he playtested Doom's levels using pistol starts?

 

[DRON12261]

On 6/4/2023 at 1:56 AM, Skerbergs said:

I'm trying to pistol start every level in Doom 2, I didn't struggle until I reached level 4. I can't continue because I run out of ammo and it just doesn't seem doable. Am I missing something?

In general, all levels from the official IWADs and in principle in the vast majority of PWADs are designed for pistol-start. Regarding the official levels at least confirmed Sandy Peterson - the fact that the original doom forcing "continuous" passage, rather an oversight or an attempt to just please the "story", but all the maps in terms of balance have always been developed in a vacuum. In general, especially with full 32-level megawads, it is unlikely anyone would bother, for example, when testing what the 25th map and pereproyti all 24 maps to it anew, just to see how it would play the 25th map after some balance edits. Even if you'll save on  MAP24 before passing to MAP25, there are a huge number of other potential situations where your equipment set can differ significantly on 24th map, depending on how you pass the whole megawad, from your playing style. Therefore, all maps are always designed by default for pistol-start, if you pass them in "continuous" mode, you just do not get all the inherent game experience, in some cases completely losing the whole idea of the map. And it doesn't matter if the megawad is made by the same person or different people, this tendency is more often seen in both cases. Quite allowed the opposite, if the author has stated it in a README or in the wad itself somehow (sort of more often it applies to some TC on GZDoom, and everything, but still classic megawads more stick to pistol-start).
 

But there's a slightly different question still. What do you want to get out of a megawad? If you just want to run it fast, or you're just playing doom for the first time, or you might have a low skill and all that, you probably shouldn't bother with pistol-start. But if you want to get the full game experience, which was laid on the map by the author, to see all its details, to see all the advantages of the map and mistakes made by the mapper, then it is strictly recommended to pass on pistol-start. And yes, you do not have to wait for perfect balance, the mapper could just not cope with this task and screw up at this point, it is normal and sometimes happens, depends on the skill of the mapper. And in the original IWADs in fact sometimes get maps with frankly crappy balance (and in some places they just enough, hi, "master levels"). 
 

But in general, as I said, it still depends more on what you want to get in the end. So base your decisions on those facts when you're deciding how you want to play.

Edited June 5, 2023 by DRON12261

[Scypek2]

3 hours ago, Yousuf Anik said:

Try with the easiest difficulty ITYTD then, you will have lot of ammo :)

 

Or Nightmare. You get double ammo there too.