What are the reasons to play other ports except GZDOOM?

[ReaperAA]

14 hours ago, Endy McGufin said:

I don't really know exactly when it changed but in the newer versions of GZdoom gravity seems harsher? I only noticed it when doing parkour or cerain level skips where I had trouble running over leaps in GZdoom which I knew I could do in Zandronum 3.0

 

I may or may not be wrong here. But I think it's actually Zandronum (more specifically it's default config/compat settings) allowing more Quake-like movement and even allowing stuff like strafe-jumping etc.

[PhoxFyre007]

17 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

 

I may or may not be wrong here. But I think it's actually Zandronum (more specifically it's default config/compat settings) allowing more Quake-like movement and even allowing stuff like strafe-jumping etc.

You may be thinking of QZandronum, which integrates movements from other games.

[xX_Lol6_Xx]

46 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

I may or may not be wrong here. But I think it's actually Zandronum (more specifically it's default config/compat settings) allowing more Quake-like movement and even allowing stuff like strafe-jumping etc.

 

27 minutes ago, PhoxFyre007 said:

You may be thinking of QZandronum, which integrates movements from other games.

I've experienced that same Quake-like movement in vanilla Zandronum too, both in servers and singleplayer, but so far I've been unable to turn it off, at least with the default compat modes.

[Professor Hastig]

I think it all goes back to Skulltag which increased the default amount of control a player has while in the air.

 

If it is that, check the sv_aircontrol CVAR, it should be set to 0.00390625 for the original amount. In GZDoom this does not get saved so you may need an autoexec.cfg to permanently change it.

 

 

[ReaperAA]

Just now, PhoxFyre007 said:

You may be thinking of QZandronum, which integrates movements from other games.

 

Definitely not QZandronum (since I have never used it). I was playing SP Hexen and testing my mod when I noticed this.

[Christian Ck.]

8 minutes ago, Professor Hastig said:

I think it all goes back to Skulltag which increased the default amount of control a player has while in the air.

 

If it is that, check the sv_aircontrol CVAR, it should be set to 0.00390625 for the original amount. In GZDoom this does not get saved so you may need an autoexec.cfg to permanently change it.

 

 

Right, Zandronum is built upon Skulltag. That might be very much the reason why the movement is so different.

Even mods like QCDE which are made to imitage the quake movement feel better in Zandronum than GZ.

[Edward850]

It's worth noting that any amount of air control is still different from Doom, where in vanilla you cannot move in the air at all.

[Professor Hastig]

7 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

It's worth noting that any amount of air control is still different from Doom, where in vanilla you cannot move in the air at all.

 

Correct, but I'd guess it was changed to make jumping more useful, with no control you couldn't stand right next to a wall, jump up and land on the upper ledge.

[noob_killer012345678]

Mostly ccompatibillity! GZDooM messes with a bunch of stuff, and even with "Doom (Strict)" mode enabled, things still arent like they are suppost to be

[Arctangent]

On 6/7/2023 at 12:37 AM, Professor Hastig said:

I think it all goes back to Skulltag which increased the default amount of control a player has while in the air.

 

If it is that, check the sv_aircontrol CVAR, it should be set to 0.00390625 for the original amount. In GZDoom this does not get saved so you may need an autoexec.cfg to permanently change it.

 

 

 

it's actually compat_limited_airmovement you're looking for; it hardlocks aircontrol's influence on acceleration to 25% ground speed, regardless of sv_aircontrol or any other aircontrol modifiers

 

subsequently, if you bump sv_aircontrol to 1 in zandronum without enabling compat_limited_airmovement, you end up with jumps that basically kill all your momentum sans a minor ability to nudge around, because you're moving a 25% ground speed while experiencing 100% ground friction as air friction. it feels Not Great

[BigBoy91]

We like what we like, and nostalgia is a hell of a drug. GZDoom is cool for mods and shit, but I'll always prefer a somewhat vanilla experience.

[Herr Dethnout]

On 6/4/2023 at 10:52 PM, Scuba Steve said:

Retro Doom:

• Pro: Quirky features implemented by the creator who is going for a faux-retro look and thinks they look neat.
• Con: Quirky features implemented by the creator who is going for a faux-retro look and thinks they look neat.

Ok, that was really funny. lol

[Muusi]

I've always used a controller to play Doom and GZDoom STILL lacks a very important feature, which will probably never happen, rumble support. That's why I mostly use the excellent Eternity Engine.

 

Can't imagine how a feature like that still doesn't exist in GZDoom, even with commercial games being released.

[Professor Hastig]

55 minutes ago, Muusi said:

...GZDoom STILL lacks a very important feature,..., rumble support

 

It can't really be 'very important' if in all those years not one single person has put any work into it.

I remember from the Playstation days when these things first came up that many of my friends - myself included - fumbled around with it when it was new but then quickly turned off the feature once it started to become a nuisance. Generally speaking, controllers are a minority option to begin with when playing FPS games on PCs - the predominant means of input is mouse/keyboard after all. So we're talking about a minority option within another minority option, so unless you find an active developer on a project who likes the feature, changes are low that it will happen.

[Muusi]

24 minutes ago, Professor Hastig said:

 

It can't really be 'very important' if in all those years not one single person has put any work into it.

I remember from the Playstation days when these things first came up that many of my friends - myself included - fumbled around with it when it was new but then quickly turned off the feature once it started to become a nuisance. Generally speaking, controllers are a minority option to begin with when playing FPS games on PCs - the predominant means of input is mouse/keyboard after all. So we're talking about a minority option within another minority option, so unless you find an active developer on a project who likes the feature, changes are low that it will happen.

Well it's very important to ME and luckily other source ports do rumble like it should be. If you're gonna do controller support then do it all the way, rumble included. Be more like Eternity Engine :P

[Graf Zahl]

15 hours ago, Muusi said:

Well it's very important to ME ...

 

That really doesn't help. The feature won't get in unless we find a capable and interested programmer to do it. I do not use controllers - much less ones with a rumble function.

A long time ago I have implemented vibration support for the Playstation's Dual Shock controllers for a few games and this wasn't trivial. You really need someone who understands how this stuff has to work to get something usable.

 

You being the first person to ever mention it also clearly shows that interest in general is low.

 

 

 

[Muusi]

52 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

You really need someone who understands how this stuff has to work to get something usable.

 

You being the first person to ever mention it also clearly shows that interest in general is low.

Someone already does (kinda anyway). DrBeef's QuestZDoom does rumble with the Quest controllers and it works great. Of course it's not Xinput but it's a start.

 

And come on I can't be the only one wishing for rumble support :D Maybe rumble is something people don't realize they want until they try it. I didn't care about it for the longest time either but after Unity made it happen I realized how much better the gameplay feels with rumble.

[Professor Hastig]

6 hours ago, Muusi said:

And come on I can't be the only one wishing for rumble support :D Maybe rumble is something people don't realize they want until they try it. I didn't care about it for the longest time either but after Unity made it happen I realized how much better the gameplay feels with rumble.

 

You may not be the only one - but this discussion reminds me a lot about "VR being the next big thing". Its proponents are convinced that it only needs time to take off, yet the response by the general public seems to be a collective shrug with the whole tech 'virtually' going nowhere.

[indigotyrian]

Doom Retro has rumble support!

[Muusi]

14 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

You really need someone who understands how this stuff has to work to get something usable.

Oh and I'm not sure if I've said this before but whenever such a developer is found who is willing to even try working on GZDoom rumble support, I'll happily donate the price of a DualShock 4 or an Xbox controller if they lack a controller.

[Devalaous]

On 6/29/2023 at 4:22 PM, Muusi said:

I've always used a controller to play Doom and GZDoom STILL lacks a very important feature, which will probably never happen, rumble support. That's why I mostly use the excellent Eternity Engine.

 

Can't imagine how a feature like that still doesn't exist in GZDoom, even with commercial games being released.

 

Eternity's rumble support IS neat and very well done, but its ruined for me by the inability to bind things to the triggers. I play with Run bound to the left trigger just like it is in multiple official Doom ports, and Eternity just wont let me do this :(

 

Amusingly, I never even really noticed GZDoom had no rumble until I experienced it in Eternity.

 

Makes me wonder what a developer taking full advantage of the PS5's unique triggers and rumble could do with it.

[Scuba Steve]

17 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

That really doesn't help. The feature won't get in unless we find a capable and interested programmer to do it. I do not use controllers - much less ones with a rumble function.

A long time ago I have implemented vibration support for the Playstation's Dual Shock controllers for a few games and this wasn't trivial. You really need someone who understands how this stuff has to work to get something usable.

 

You being the first person to ever mention it also clearly shows that interest in general is low.

General interest in a feature only matters in this case, and not the constant, unending request that texture filtering and other non-standard Doom features be turned off by default.

[Graf Zahl]

1 hour ago, Scuba Steve said:

General interest in a feature only matters in this case, and not the constant, unending request that texture filtering and other non-standard Doom features be turned off by default.

 

The defaults need to remain as they are - we got a legacy of 25 years of ZDoom maps that depend on them. Do you have any idea how much complaints it would cause if the they were changed and some of the maps break because they are not compatible with more vanilla-like settings? That ship has sailed more than 20 years ago at a time when the decisions were made.

 

As for the texture filtering, I know that probably 90% here do not like it - but do you have ANY numbers for the general public?

 

It's also quite something different to alter a few settings compared to implementing a new feature - one, I might add, I have zero interest in and no desire to buy the hardware because it'd collect dust later.

[Scuba Steve]

Do you have any evidence the general public likes texture filtering?

[Shakariki Heisenberg]

lilitth.pk3

[Turbulent]

14 minutes ago, Scuba Steve said:

Do you have any evidence the general public likes texture filtering?

As someone who mainly played dosbox and gzdoom for brutal doom until recently I'd say from personal experience I didn't even know what that was. If I had to guess most people probably don't change too many settings besides maybe control rebinding.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Turbulent

[Scuba Steve]

Bingo. John Romero himself just assumed GZDoom hardware setting looked like that and didn't bother changing anything after he switched from the software renderer which he prefers.

 

It's so objectively ugly everyone who knows that's now it's supposed to look changes it immediately. We know this to be true because every commercial GZDoom project does not use this setting when trying to present their games in the best possible light in videos and screenshots. Selaco, Beyond Sunset, Hedon... all intentionally want you to see their game with nearest-neighbor. This is literally how Doom is supposed to look. Youtube has shown me enough MyHouse videos now for me to see all the graphical glitches that are caused by just casually blurring textures when the author intended for precise texture alignments. The only reason anyone uses it is because it's the default. There is no data to suggest any large number of people enjoy it but there are pages and pages of requests and pleas asking for nearest-neighbor to be the default appearance. I mean, what do you want, for me to explain why, from an artists perspective, it's objectively ugly?

 

At this point, after more than a decade of debating this, I'll be honest, it really just feels like you like it and think it looks good ergo, that's just how it's going to be. You're an exceptional programmer who had the vision and ability to lead a team that turned ZDoom into a fully-fledged game engine... but you're not a content creator and I can tell you as the resident "looks > gameplay" guy, everyone who makes projects for GZDoom despises the look of texture filtering and cringes every time we watch someone play our work with smeared vaseline.

[LexiMax]

1 hour ago, Graf Zahl said:

The defaults need to remain as they are - we got a legacy of 25 years of ZDoom maps that depend on them.

 

Why not have a setting heuristic that detects the kinds of assets that are being loaded and is smart enough to choose accordingly?

 

For doom/boom/mbf content (i.e. the kinds of content that other ports can play), default to no texture filtering, but if high-resolution or truecolor asset is loaded then turn on bilinear.  You could still customize it if you wanted, the default behavior would just try to intuit the best setting based on the content loaded in the current set of loaded files.

 

Obviously, the specifics of the heuristic would need to be hashed out, but I can't imagine that there isn't a way to deliver doom-style graphics to doom wads and modern graphics with texture filtering to modern pk3's through a heuristic.

Edited June 30, 2023 by LexiMax

[Blast_Brothers]

What does it mean to "depend"   on texture filtering, anyway? Is there any reason to suppose that art was ever designed around it in a WAD? And if so, would it really look vastly "wrong" to display that art without filtering?

 

I can understand leaving other defaults as they are, but that one seems like a stretch.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Blast_Brothers

[LexiMax]

6 minutes ago, Blast_Brothers said:

What does it mean to "rely"  on texture filtering, anyway? Is there any reason to suppose that art was ever designed around it in a WAD? And if so, would it really look vastly "wrong" to display that art without filtering? 

 

Bilinear filtering on Doom textures is tantamount to turning off filtering in Mario 64.

 

There are certainly folks who prefer it that way, and there are romhacks where such settings might make sense, but it's pretty clear what the sane default is who people who just want to play some Mario 64.

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by LexiMax