What are the reasons to play other ports except GZDOOM?

[Blast_Brothers]

7 minutes ago, LexiMax said:

 

Bilinear filtering on Doom textures is tantamount to turning off filtering in Mario 64.  There are certainly folks who prefer it that way, but it's pretty clear what the sane default is.

 

Yes.

 

But my point is that I don't think anyone has abused the properties of bilinear filtering in a Doom WAD in the same way Mario 64 does. I'd imagine that north of 95% of assets used in PWADs were made without giving filtering a single thought.

 

If anyone has examples of that, let me know. I guess it's possible if you take texture scaling into account?

Edited June 30, 2023 by Blast_Brothers

[BeachThunder]

Has anyone made a poll as to whether GZDoom should have filtering on or off by default? I'd be interested to see the results.

[LexiMax]

19 minutes ago, Blast_Brothers said:

I'd imagine that north of 95% of assets used in PWADs were made without giving filtering a single thought. 

 

Exactly.  The game assumes pixelated, and the typical asset creation pipeline (Photoshop, GIMP, Paint, etc.) assume pixelated too.  Adding filtering on top of that is really only a good idea in two situations:

1. You are "abusing" filtering of ultra-low-resolution assets to achieve a specific effect, like in Mario 64.
2. Your assets are high-resolution enough to where filtering implements its intended effect and sands off the rough edges of the asset instead of just blurring it into non-distinction.

Thus why I think it might be possible for a heuristic to be used.  If the scale of the assets loaded spreads more pixels across the same area than a standard Doom asset, it's probably a safe bet to turn it on, otherwise leave it off.  And if someone is extremely opinionated either way, they can be more specific in their own settings.  The goal would be to provide a better first-time experience to a greater percentage of users.

 

For what it's worth, I actually don't mind most GZDoom-isms, and the only reason I don't play the port more is because I've had far more affinity for multiplayer content than single-player content.  But I do think GZDoom could have a better out-of-the-box experience in the filtering department.

Edited June 30, 2023 by LexiMax

[Herr Dethnout]

On 6/29/2023 at 12:22 AM, Muusi said:

GZDoom STILL lacks a very important feature, which will probably never happen, rumble support.

No way that GZ doesn't have force feedback support...

 

wtf

[Pomps]

less settings, runs better & feels more like classic doom 😅😅

[Muusi]

3 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

No desire to buy the hardware because it'd collect dust later.

If you ever change your mind I'll happily donate the price of a DualShock 4 or an Xbox controller ;)

[Edward850]

10 hours ago, Devalaous said:

Eternity's rumble support IS neat and very well done, but its ruined for me by the inability to bind things to the triggers. I play with Run bound to the left trigger just like it is in multiple official Doom ports, and Eternity just wont let me do this :(

You absolutely can bind things to the triggers, heck left trigger run, right trigger shoot is the default controls in Eternity.

Altazimuth and I recently went through the process of giving Eternity better userflow for the Steam deck, including redoing the SDL2 controller support and automatic default setup of a gamepad. It might be wise to download the latest devbuild and restart with a fresh config, which may resolve any configuration error that may currently be present preventing you from doing this.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Edward850

[Individualised]

While having bilinear filtering on by default is not ideal for playing Doom, GZDoom is more than just a Doom source port and it makes sense to have it on by default as it is a feature of modern game engines, similar to other features enabled by default.

[indigotyrian]

7 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

The defaults need to remain as they are - we got a legacy of 25 years of ZDoom maps that depend on them. Do you have any idea how much complaints it would cause if the they were changed and some of the maps break because they are not compatible with more vanilla-like settings? That ship has sailed more than 20 years ago at a time when the decisions were made.

 

You're expecting me to believe that we should put the supposed legacy expected config of, what, a dozen high-resolution projects in a higher priority over the expected config of tens of thousands of Doom map sets, basically every Doom mod that isn't a high resolution pack, the IWADs themselves...?

 

No. That's ridiculous and is an utter cop-out. The fact that you deflect with a "well do you have a poll of the general population?" is proof of this. Set the default to nearest-neighbor. High-res projects can include a line somewhere in a file that forces bilinear on, or like Lexi suggested you can switch when you're loading sufficiently high-res textures (say, 1024px truecolor PNGs).

 

2 hours ago, Individualised said:

While having bilinear filtering on by default is not ideal for playing Doom, GZDoom is more than just a Doom source port and it makes sense to have it on by default as it is a feature of modern game engines, similar to other features enabled by default.

 

GZDoom is not a modern game engine. GZDoom is a source port of a 30 year old game that ships with an incredibly diverse array of dipping mustards. The original game and about 98% of custom assets made for it are designed without bilinear filtering in mind.

Edited July 1, 2023 by indigotyrian

[Herr Dethnout]

1 hour ago, Individualised said:

While having bilinear filtering on by default is not ideal for playing Doom, GZDoom is more than just a Doom source port and it makes sense to have it on by default as it is a feature of modern game engines, similar to other features enabled by default.

Although I agree that GZ is more than a Doom sourceport (In my opinión, I don't see it as a Doom sourceport anymore), you cannot compare a modern engine (with hires output in mind) with a sourceport of a 30yr old game, even standalone GZ games doesn't use bilinear filtering at all.

 

Just for the récord, Hands of the Necromancy has nearest as default option.

[Herr Dethnout]

1 hour ago, Individualised said:

...

Edited June 30, 2023 by Herr Dethnout
Double post lol

[Manny84]

Filtering on pixel art always looks terrible - I mean, it's pixel art - but most new/casual users simply don't know there's an alternative. You could see it in a lot of the streamers who played Doom II for the first time when MyHouse.wad got big. It's not that they prefer filtering; it's that they don't know you can turn it off, and probably don't even know what it actually is. It's kinda like when my mum bought a new TV and it had all these gross settings like motion smoothing switched on by default. I turned them off and she said it looked much better, but if I hadn't done that she'd never have questioned it.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Manny84

[indigotyrian]

48 minutes ago, Manny84 said:

Filtering on pixel art always looks terrible - I mean, it's pixel art - but most new/casual users simply don't know there's an alternative. You could see it in a lot of the streamers who played Doom II for the first time when MyHouse.wad came out. It's not that they prefer filtering; it's that they don't know you can turn it off, and probably don't even know what it actually is. It's kinda like when my mum bought a new TV and it had all these gross settings like motion smoothing switched on by default. I turned them off and she said it looked much better, but if I hadn't done that she'd never have questioned it.

 

10 years from now we're gonna hear TV manufacturers say that they need to keep motion smoothing on because it's been default on across the industry for so long that movies and television shows were made with it in mind

Edited July 1, 2023 by indigotyrian

[Devalaous]

3 hours ago, Edward850 said:

You absolutely can bind things to the triggers, heck left trigger run, right trigger shoot is the default controls in Eternity.

 

Just had a look and its not the case for me. It detects my Xbox One Elite controller, but seems to think the triggers are for movement, going by the ingame options. Shoot is automatically on the right trigger, but I cannot run with the left, and binding anything to the trigger does not work. Its pretty frustrating, theres no way I'll be able to play Heartland without the ability to run

[Edward850]

26 minutes ago, Devalaous said:

 

Just had a look and its not the case for me. It detects my Xbox One Elite controller, but seems to think the triggers are for movement, going by the ingame options. Shoot is automatically on the right trigger, but I cannot run with the left, and binding anything to the trigger does not work. Its pretty frustrating, theres no way I'll be able to play Heartland without the ability to run

Did you update Eternity and clear your config as I suggested?

[Devalaous]

30 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Did you update Eternity and clear your config as I suggested?

 

That second part of the message wasnt there when I clicked Quote, I was already running a somewhat recent dev build (as ive been testing a lot of UMAPINFO stuff in it for my patches). Deleted the entire folder, added one from June 29, and its still the same. Automatically detects my controller, lets me shoot with RT, LT doesnt automatically run, binding the left trigger to anything doesnt work. If I load up profiles in the menu it gets even wonkier, the Xbox 360 proifle seems to have inverted my controller entirely, the face buttons are now acting like the Dpad.

 

Is the config actually being reset, or is it somewhere outside of the Eternity folders?

 

EDIT:

Built on Jun 29 2023 at 07:13:07
M_LoadDefaults: Load system defaults.
Warning: Cannot read D:/Doom/Eternity/user/doom/eternity.cfg -- using built-in defaults
W_Init: Init WADfiles.
 adding D:/Doom/Eternity/base/doom/eternity.pke
 adding G:/SteamLibrary/steamapps/common/Ultimate Doom/base/DOOM.WAD

E_ProcessEDF: Loading root file D:/Doom/Eternity/base/root.edf
V_InitMisc: Init miscellaneous video patches.
C_Init: Init console.
I_Init: Setting up machine state.
I_InitSound: Configured audio device with 2048 samples/slice.
I_InitMusic: Using SDL_mixer.
Windows MIDI Init: Using 'Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth'.
D_SetGraphicsMode: Set graphics mode
 (using video driver 'SDL GL2D')

According to this it is indeed rebuilding the config file from scratch

Edited July 1, 2023 by Devalaous

[Herr Dethnout]

1 hour ago, Devalaous said:

 

Just had a look and its not the case for me. It detects my Xbox One Elite controller, but seems to think the triggers are for movement, going by the ingame options. Shoot is automatically on the right trigger, but I cannot run with the left, and binding anything to the trigger does not work. Its pretty frustrating, theres no way I'll be able to play Heartland without the ability to run

Im using a older version of eternity (4.0.3 pre 819) and was able to use and bind the triggers correctly.

 

Just to know, on select device option appears more than 1 device?

[Edward850]

No it lives in the Eternity folder. I'm not sure what's going on with your controller, we tested this with an Xbox One gamepad and steam deck and everything is working as expected, it sounds more like your device isn't being correctly determined as an xinput controller which will mean the triggers end up fusing. I wonder if something external to your system is overriding it.

[Devalaous]

 

Its definitely there. Its wired if that helps. All other programs from emulators, GZDoom to various retail games of all ages all work beautifully. (Apologies for continued offtopic, but this issue has been bugging me for months)

[Herr Dethnout]

29 minutes ago, Devalaous said:

 

Its definitely there. Its wired if that helps. All other programs from emulators, GZDoom to various retail games of all ages all work beautifully. (Apologies for continued offtopic, but this issue has been bugging me for months)

Try using xinput gamepad 1

[Devalaous]

6 minutes ago, Herr Dethnout said:

Try using xinput gamepad 1

 

This allowed me to bind it, selecting it flipped my controller back around in the process (and assigned shoot to the left trigger). Using the X input option didnt work in the past though.

[BeachThunder]

Okay, I created a poll:

 

 

[Herr Dethnout]

1 hour ago, Devalaous said:

 

This allowed me to bind it, selecting it flipped my controller back around in the process (and assigned shoot to the left trigger). Using the X input option didnt work in the past though.

Well in my case it worked fine, just needed to select the xbox360 preset and rebinding the triggers.

 

It even made the force feedback work (in the SDL didn't worked)