Another ridiculous post about the future of Doom

[Darkcrafter07]

Dear mappers, modders, source porters, now I shall reconcile you all, please don't take it way too serious but it could be just me having some fun.

 

Fasten your seat belts, I'm going to share my vision on the future of Doom.

 

 

 

1. Vanilla must die. Seriously, this engine was experimental even at the day of release and you can see it by reading some John Carmack dev logs how he would want to make it render right (sprites clipping), the original capabilities of the engine don't scale up to today needs.

 

2. Quake derived ports are the way to go. Quake runs hundred times faster than Doom on faster systems, yes, if you run Doom on a modern CPU, on DOS, you will still be bound to 100FPS in 320x200 while Quake would give you thousands;

 

3. Vanilla lighting can be simulated with Quake lightmaps entirely, more than that you'll get nice shadows and a possibility to make it render beatiful looks on modern systems (hello RTX ON, not Pr-Boom RTX BS);

 

4. Vanilla monsters can be made into other engines, more than that, they can be made better if done with more talent and dedication. Wait, there was a total conversion for Quake of such kind called "Your Path Of Destruction" (YPOD) made in 1997 and abandoned because it sucked and required much more development (that's not free.)

 

5. YPOD was made by a group of low motivated students? Doom maps show all the flaws that Quake movement code doesn't fit Doom; Progs.dat were also coded insufficiently well and simply rushed, there was no Doom style lighting.

 

6. We need YPOD2 done right. Yes, it's about having to suit Quake engine to Doom needs. Call it somehow, like Qwadoom, brainstorm please!

 

7. We need a better Quake map editor that Doom mappers can use easily. Imagine having a Doom Builer made in such a fashion that it converts UDMF GZDoom and Eternity maps with portals and stacked sectors into a Quake brush-work maps. There are some source codes for tools like Doom2Quake that already provide a good basis for that. Having a mode to work with Doom maps in a layered fashion, it's like Eternity portals but real 3D without a need to separate geometry.

"Qwadoom Builder by "QDQ inc.". Ultimate Doom Builder with advanced "Quake" mode called "oh no, it's Quake".

 

8. Having light to bake up on static non-map 3d models geometry as well as regular geometry, like it's done in source engine. That would increase performance on dinosaur computers.

 

If all done right, the whole thing could possible work on wide range of systems, starting with 486 computers like dx-100 in DOS and ending smartphones, resulting in the future Doom gameplay, available on every toilet corner of the world. More advantages? As now it's integrated in Quake engine, it runs both games at once. Will attract more modders and mappers? Who knows. Opinions, critics, laughters?

[Murdoch]

Well at least you are honest. I have no idea what you are trying to accomplish with this post except to start fights.

 

1. Dude, some people like vanilla, quirks and all. You're allowed not to, but making blanket statements like "Vanilla must die", even though you are claiming not to take this seriously though it is by it's nature a very serious statement, will only serve to make you look like a douchebag.

2. No they are not. Quake is a very different game with a very different feel to it. Bludgeon Quake like elements into it, you will kill how the game feels. Make a Doom port based on a Quake port and it'll be Quake wearing Doom's skin, not Doom.

3. Again, people like the classic look. 

4. ... and? Really not sure what your point is here. Yes, YPOD was awful.

5. ... again, and? What has an ancient terrible Quake mod got to do with anything about the future of Doom? If anything, YPOD is a shining example of why everything you are proposing simply wouldn't work.

6. No we don't. You want to make it, go right ahead and gather a team of like-minded individuals and make it. But we don't need it by any stretch of the imagination.

7. Why? What does a Quake map editor gain for people who want to map for Doom? Also, what you are proposing is frankly fundamentally absurd. Rendering a base 2D Doom map design into Quake map has been done. But translating all the 3D tricks into actual 3d geometry would be a complete and utter nightmare to develop.

8. Given even the most ancient of computers still in regular use today can run Doom just fine in some form, why would this extra level of complication help anybody wanting to develop Doom maps?

 

5 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

If all done right, the whole thing could possible work on wide range of systems

 

So a crapton of work to essentially break core elements of how the game functions and feels that people enjoy, including how the mapping works, to get it onto the wide range of systems it's already on?

 

5 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

resulting in the future Doom gameplay, available on every toilet corner of the world

 

It already is.

 

5 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

As now it's integrated in Quake engine, it runs both games at once.

 

This isn't an advantage. 

 

5 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

Will attract more modders and mappers?

 

We already have an assload of new content released all the time. No one person could conceivably play every Doom map out there.

 

Seriously dude, this post was just weird and I really don't think you thought it through at all. You're spouting off left-field ideas, essentially trying to tell people what to do, while showing you clearly do not comprehend the magnitude of what you ask. You also don't seem to understand people like Doom pretty much exactly the way it is, quirks and all. Oh and as for rendering speeds, @GooberMan is working on a much improved renderer to speed up framerates. Some ports may chose to adopt his work once it's complete, that remains to be seen.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Murdoch

[mrthejoshmon]

6 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

1. Vanilla must die.

Ok, grand vision and all but perhaps this could be delivered smoother than a grenade in a nursery.

 

Also, if I join do I also get the cool black trench coat and red armband or is that party members only?

[Edward850]

6 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

2. Quake derived ports are the way to go. Quake runs hundred times faster than Doom on faster systems, yes, if you run Doom on a modern CPU, on DOS, you will still be bound to 100FPS in 320x200 while Quake would give you thousands;

So we could spend all day pointlessly responding to all your weird points individually, however I think this one just rather encapsulates the whole problem: Not a single word you have said here is true. We've been benchmarking Doom at 4K resolutions in the 300s. You can easily push well past 1000 with the right renderer configuration. In no possible logical way is Quake "faster".

Edited June 9, 2023 by Edward850

[Redneckerz]

I have a (distorted, its night, came after party) memory of you doing the same thing elsewhere. Stop stirring shit.

 

6 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

1. Vanilla must die. Seriously, this engine was experimental even at the day of release and you can see it by reading some John Carmack dev logs how he would want to make it render right (sprites clipping), the original capabilities of the engine don't scale up to today needs.

That means losing works like KDIKDIZD. No way.

6 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

2. Quake derived ports are the way to go. Quake runs hundred times faster than Doom on faster systems, yes, if you run Doom on a modern CPU, on DOS, you will still be bound to 100FPS in 320x200 while Quake would give you thousands;

I am supposed to not take this too serious, but this aint funny either. Also already exists, see K8Vavoom.

6 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

5. YPOD was made by a group of low motivated students? Doom maps show all the flaws that Quake movement code doesn't fit Doom; Progs.dat were also coded insufficiently well and simply rushed, there was no Doom style lighting.

This isn't even humorous, except you attempting to shit on quality work and passing it off as a joke.

6 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

8. Having light to bake up on static non-map 3d models geometry as well as regular geometry, like it's done in source engine. That would increase performance on dinosaur computers.

Is happening with ZDRay.

6 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

If all done right, the whole thing could possible work on wide range of systems, starting with 486 computers like dx-100 in DOS and ending smartphones, resulting in the future Doom gameplay, available on every toilet corner of the world. More advantages? As now it's integrated in Quake engine, it runs both games at once. Will attract more modders and mappers? Who knows. Opinions, critics, laughters?

So basically, Doom in Quake. How original.

[Darkcrafter07]

2 hours ago, Edward850 said:

So we could spend all day pointlessly responding to all your weird points individually, however I think this one just rather encapsulates the whole problem: Not a single word you have said here is true. We've been benchmarking Doom at 4K resolutions in the 300s. You can easily push well past 1000 with the right renderer configuration. In no possible logical way is Quake "faster".

No, not in 4K, I mean, run the original exe on DOS, with a modern CPU, it will bottleneck. Maybe an FPS cap is on, maybe a shitty point indeed in this case.

3 hours ago, Murdoch said:

Well at least you are honest. I have no idea what you are trying to accomplish with this post except to start fights.

3. Again, people like the classic look. 

I do too but having all geometry looking 90 degrees straight is boring. Duke Nukem 3D made some slopes possible and Quake finally allowed for even more freedom, look at E1M2 ending area, the rock texture isn't "chopped off" in a straight fashion at the top, the designers tried to make it look more "sawwy".

3 hours ago, Murdoch said:

6. No we don't. You want to make it, go right ahead and gather a team of like-minded individuals and make it. But we don't need it by any stretch of the imagination.

I won't promise this happening any time soon. But how do you know if you need it by not trying

3 hours ago, Murdoch said:

7. Why? What does a Quake map editor gain for people who want to map for Doom? Also, what you are proposing is frankly fundamentally absurd. Rendering a base 2D Doom map design into Quake map has been done. But translating all the 3D tricks into actual 3d geometry would be a complete and utter nightmare to develop.

Having room over room without relying on portals and 3D floors. Start the editor, draw your sectors in a "Doom" mode, stack them up against each other in 3D space like a bunch of 3D models, put triggers in Quake mode. The map compiler will provide correct and consistent lighting across them all. I don't know actually what it costs to develop such an editor but pretty much, generating Quake brushes out of 3D floors must be even easier than converting regular Doom geometry.

2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

I have a (distorted, its night, came after party) memory of you doing the same thing elsewhere. Stop stirring shit.

Thank you for paying attention to my posts, really. I'm a really tough guy to deal with, not something I'm proud of. I don't mean killing Doom right now, no, instead I'd want to see something that would become so good that it could be on par with Vanilla. Of course, Vanilla will not die, ever, so no way mods disappearing.

2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

I am supposed to not take this too serious, but this aint funny either. Also already exists, see K8Vavoom.

I know about K8Vavoom, the last time I tried to feed it a map from Hell Renaissance it went out to be working much slower than in GZDoom, but that's an offtop. It's a good idea for me now to test run an old DOS version of Vavoom and maybe even compare its speed against Quake YPOD on Doom 2 Map01, they're both present here and there.

2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Is happening with ZDRay.

I know about ZDray to for years but thanks, the last time I asked about it, it didn't process 3D models? It was a long while ago on zdoom forums.

[DogsRNice]

10 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

8. Having light to bake up on static non-map 3d models geometry as well as regular geometry, like it's done in source engine. That would increase performance on dinosaur computers.

 

how would an extra type of texture that could end up being really large increase performance? (having done mapping for source, the lightmaps can get pretty large)

 

though i am reminded of some minecraft shaders that are locked to the resolution of the texture so the shadows blend perfectly with the textures. It looks really good and it could be something really cool for doom as well. (would also alleviate the file size issue i mentioned)

 

EDIT: just realized it would make the filesize worse... somehow got that backwards while writing this

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by DogsRNice

[Maribo]

9 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

Dear mappers, modders, source porters, now I shall reconcile you all, please don't take it way too serious but it could be just me having some fun.

At least have the confidence to post your flame war bait without also playing the "I was just messing around, guys" fallback card in case it blows up in your face.

 

Post is so full of contradictory statements and weird angles that the only possible takeaway is that you wish Doom was Quake. Strongly suggest reflecting on why you think vanilla needs to die for the "future of Doom" when Doom has survived for 30 years off of a community that celebrates all forms of Doom - from vanilla all the way to standalone games built in GZDoom.

[BigBoy91]

Just play Quake then.

[indigotyrian]

the future of doom is voxel everything. sprites are only the beginning. replace the map format with voxels. UI? voxels. all sounds and music are square waves (audio voxels).

[Darkcrafter07]

36 minutes ago, DogsRNice said:

how would an extra type of texture that could end up being really large increase performance? (having done mapping for source, the lightmaps can get pretty large)

It can improve performance in such cases when static geometry is lit by actual light sources (like dynlights on gzdoom). There's no more need to recalculate dyn lights lighting every frame.

 

As a side note I'm pretty sure that if zdray was used to do exactly that and also for static 3d models, it could have brought some performance improvements for big maps with lots of geometries and dyn lights to cover. That way you could exclude big chunks of data from dyn lights calculation list, thus easing it up a bit for CPU. What I don't know here whether it is possible or not due to the material system, if only those were albedo only textures.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Darkcrafter07

[Edward850]

1 hour ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

No, not in 4K, I mean, run the original exe on DOS, with a modern CPU, it will bottleneck. Maybe an FPS cap is on, maybe a shitty point indeed in this case. 

Using the vanilla versions of these games in DOS is an impossible test case, Doom is capped to 35hz in DOS, it never had an interpolator and physically could not present more information. Meanwhile Quake was capped to 72FPS and the physics ate itself if it went any higher (or frankly even at 72, it starts exhibiting weird issues even above 60 which we encountered while developing the remaster).

 

You would have to compare timedemo results of both which presents far too many new variables to matter at all, as Quake requires floating point calculations where Doom does not. They bench two entirely different things, ultimately, but with the addendum that timedemo is not relevant to real world performance if the games can never take advantage of it.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Edward850

[Capellan]

So the idea is that "someone" should spend thousands of hours to port Doom from a 30 year old engine that no-one but a bunch of diehards cares about to a 25 year old engine that no-one but a bunch of diehards cares about?  

 

Have fun with that.

 

[Darkcrafter07]

5 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Using the vanilla versions of these games in DOS is an impossible test case, Doom is capped to 35hz in DOS, it never had an interpolator and physically could not present more information. Meanwhile Quake was capped to 72FPS and the physics ate itself if it went any higher.

You would have to compare timedemo results of both which presents far too many new variables to matter at all, as Quake requires floating point calculations where Doom does not. They bench two entirely different things, ultimately, but with the addendum that timedemo is not relevant to real world performance if the games can never take advantage of it.

This is an interesting point, yes I checked timedemos for sure. One thing I noticed while benching my Ryzen 5 1600 CPU with cpu-z vintage edition is that floating point performance is way higher than integer. Is it like modern source ports take advantage of that or is it still integer or both?

[Darkcrafter07]

1 minute ago, Capellan said:

So the idea is that "someone" should spend thousands of hours to port Doom from a 30 year old engine that no-one but a bunch of diehards cares about to a 25 year old engine that no-one but a bunch of diehards cares about?  

 

Have fun with that.

 

Games are just like any other form of art timeless and 25-30 years is not as long as you may think. A bunch of die hards? Yes I am one of those perverts unfortunately.

[Edward850]

Just now, Darkcrafter07 said:

This is an interesting point, yes I checked timedemos for sure. One thing I noticed while benching my Ryzen 5 1600 CPU with cpu-z vintage edition is that floating point performance is way higher than integer. Is it like modern source ports take advantage of that or is it still integer or both?

I highly question the results of your benchmarks, how did you test these?

[Capellan]

1 minute ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

Games are just like any other form of art timeless and 25-30 years is not as long as you may think. A bunch of die hards? Yes I am one of those perverts unfortunately.

 

Well, you go do the work and let us know when it's ready.  Meanwhile, we can keep playing the game that's already given us decades of pleasure and will give decades more before you're done.

[Mr. Freeze]

[Darkcrafter07]

2 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

I highly question the results of your benchmarks, how did you test these?

I saved an old PC from a dumpster, Celeron 1.7ghz, 512mb ram. Just occasionally I had a newer mobo with an even newer Celeron 2.4ghz and FX 5500 video card all prepared to go dumpster too. So I disassembled and washed the whole thing, replaced the old mobo and CPU with newer ones, also having caps resoldered and a fan installed over FX 5500 in a maximum redneck way possible but working nicely. Restored almost dead HDD and installed two O's on it.

 

win98 se on drive c

Win XP sp3 on d

 

Under Win 98 I ran Doom2 v1.9 exe with -timedemo demo1 parameter, also having it ripped from the was as the game couldn't find one. It gave me a result of approximately 105FPS.

 

Quake timedemos ran way faster, I don't want to lie because I can't remember. That's under win98 too and video card drivers version 53 I guess.

Maybe that was 486quake port, the optimized version as the original quake.exe was 1.01 and didn't play timedemos right (normal speed despite having a beast CPU).

 

I'll try to boot up Win 98 again next time because XP disabled it from booting.

 

I have an assumption that rendering the whole world in polygons is faster than rendering it the doom way because sprite monsters graphics had to be addressed way more often (hundreds of files) instead of writing a couple of textures and models with all animations to the memory and feed it to CPU.

[nolongeramnion]

13 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

We need YPOD2 done right. Yes, it's about having to suit Quake engine to Doom needs. Call it somehow, like Qwadoom, brainstorm please!

wouldn't it make more sense to include doom mod support into a modified version of quake than throwing out 30 years of mods? even then it sounds super convoluted.

Edited June 10, 2023 by amnion

[Darkcrafter07]

1 minute ago, amnion said:

wouldn't it make more sense to include doom mod support into a modified version of quake than throwing out 30 years of mods? even then it sounds super convoluted.

I didn't say to throw mods out and kill vanilla. It's just like I see a potentially good idea to remake Doom in Quake and "Vanilla must die" here is like a figure of speech.

 

Well, only if everything goes well then maybe next step will be thinking about implementing a doom map loader like it's done in Unity port and perhaps Doomity so a subsystem would be needed to convert Doom maps to Quake ones and compile them before running.

[ReaperAA]

Quote

No, not in 4K, I mean, run the original exe on DOS, with a modern CPU, it will bottleneck. Maybe an FPS cap is on, maybe a shitty point indeed in this case.

 

Neither Doom or Quake would ever run in 4K resolution on DOS era hardware (or even in DOSBox).

 

Besides if you want to do a better comparison, I would recommend comparing the most optimized ports of Quake (such as Ironwail or vkQuake) and Doom (such as Helion or Rum and Raisin Doom). Even then, Doom and Quake are so different that I don't what you really want to achieve with this.

[Edward850]

20 minutes ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

I have an assumption that rendering the whole world in polygons is faster than rendering it the doom way because sprite monsters graphics had to be addressed way more often (hundreds of files) instead of writing a couple of textures and models with all animations to the memory and feed it to CPU.

Well not a single thing about this is correct. Doom's world rendering is faster, it uses a simple texture mapping algorithm the maps everything to a single perspective. Quake meanwhile has to do a lot of polygon transformations to map textures, no matter how you slice it, a polygon transform will be slower to compute then Doom's single point perspective mapping.

 

The problem variable is this:

20 minutes ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

Quake timedemos ran way faster, I don't want to lie because I can't remember. That's under win98 too and video card drivers version 53 I guess.

Maybe that was 486quake port, the optimized version as the original quake.exe was 1.01 and didn't play timedemos right (normal speed despite having a beast CPU). 

This isn't a good metric. You are comparing the DOS version of Doom running in Windows, compared to a version of Quake you can't even identify, and with settings none of us knows. You also don't have numbers anywhere in your post. Meanwhile, here's actual numbers I've managed to find; Take the PentiumII-233 for example which gets 105.4 FPS avg in Doom vs 57.00 in Quake (important, both run with no sound).
https://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/misc/doombench.html

https://thandor.net/benchmark/33

Edited June 10, 2023 by Edward850

[Major Arlene]

11 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

1. Vanilla must die. Seriously, this engine was experimental even at the day of release and you can see it by reading some John Carmack dev logs how he would want to make it render right (sprites clipping), the original capabilities of the engine don't scale up to today needs.

 

2. Quake derived ports are the way to go. Quake runs hundred times faster than Doom on faster systems, yes, if you run Doom on a modern CPU, on DOS, you will still be bound to 100FPS in 320x200 while Quake would give you thousands;

 

3. Vanilla lighting can be simulated with Quake lightmaps entirely, more than that you'll get nice shadows and a possibility to make it render beatiful looks on modern systems (hello RTX ON, not Pr-Boom RTX BS);

 

4. Vanilla monsters can be made into other engines, more than that, they can be made better if done with more talent and dedication. Wait, there was a total conversion for Quake of such kind called "Your Path Of Destruction" (YPOD) made in 1997 and abandoned because it sucked and required much more development (that's not free.)

 

5. YPOD was made by a group of low motivated students? Doom maps show all the flaws that Quake movement code doesn't fit Doom; Progs.dat were also coded insufficiently well and simply rushed, there was no Doom style lighting.

 

6. We need YPOD2 done right. Yes, it's about having to suit Quake engine to Doom needs. Call it somehow, like Qwadoom, brainstorm please!

 

7. We need a better Quake map editor that Doom mappers can use easily. Imagine having a Doom Builer made in such a fashion that it converts UDMF GZDoom and Eternity maps with portals and stacked sectors into a Quake brush-work maps. There are some source codes for tools like Doom2Quake that already provide a good basis for that. Having a mode to work with Doom maps in a layered fashion, it's like Eternity portals but real 3D without a need to separate geometry.

"Qwadoom Builder by "QDQ inc.". Ultimate Doom Builder with advanced "Quake" mode called "oh no, it's Quake".

 

8. Having light to bake up on static non-map 3d models geometry as well as regular geometry, like it's done in source engine. That would increase performance on dinosaur computers.

 

Heeeeere we go, it's bait but I'm going for it anyway.

 

1. No. BTSX. End of story.

 

2. No. Play anything in GZDOOM.

 

3. Um, I invite you to try?

 

4. There's a thing called "copyright"

 

5 & 6 I have no idea as I'm not a Quake nerd. probably because this post is supposed to be about Doom idk why Quake is factoring so hard into this.

 

7. Trenchbroom exists and while I've not used it myself I've heard plenty of Doom modders say it's easy to use.

 

8. I mean, I guess? Baked-in lighting would be great but that's not how Doom operates.

 

Idk man, just map for Quake? Doom & Quake share some themes but your post just makes you sound like a Quake fanboy. Doom has its own charms and it's stayed that way for a reason.

[Darkcrafter07]

3 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Well not a single thing about this is correct. Doom's world rendering is faster, it uses a simple texture mapping algorithm the maps everything to a single perspective. Quake meanwhile has to do a lot of polygon transformations to map textures, no matter how you slice it, a polygon transform will be slower to compute then Doom's single point perspective mapping.

 

The problem variable is this:

This isn't a good metric. You are comparing the DOS version of Doom running in Windows, compared to a version of Quake you can't even identify, and with settings none of us knows. You also don't have numbers anywhere in your post. Meanwhile, here's actual numbers I've managed to find; Take the PentiumII-233 for example which gets 105.4 FPS avg in Doom vs 57.00 in Quake (important, both run with no sound).
https://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/misc/doombench.html

https://thandor.net/benchmark/33

I'll sort the versions up and compare again under pure dos then, no sound.

[Roofi]

12 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

 

1. Vanilla must die

 

[Biodegradable]

12 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

7. We need a better Quake map editor that Doom mappers can use easily.

 

I may be reading too much into this thread topic that I'm not supposed to take seriously but this bit in particular strikes me as odd. It kind of sounds like a hidden plea for more of today's most prominent Doom mappers to switch over to Quake and inject some more life into its languishing modding scene; convinced that the only reason more of them haven't done so already is because they find Quake level editors too difficult to understand.

 

The rest of this just comes across as tone-deaf, as though OP has accidentally admitted that they haven't been paying attention to all the technical achievements the community has managed with Doom in the last 3 years alone, let alone the last decade. Doom has continued to thrive with new technical innovations for over 20 years and continues to find new ways to stay ahead technologically. We already have enough source-ports to have the best of both worlds - Vanilla and Modern - without sacrificing a shred of its identity and the mere notion that "Vanilla must die" is a fundamental misunderstanding of both how and why Doom has persevered for so long.

 

12 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

If all done right, the whole thing could possible work on wide range of systems, starting with 486 computers like dx-100 in DOS and ending smartphones, resulting in the future Doom gameplay, available on every toilet corner of the world.

 

Have you ever heard of the It Runs Doom meme, fam? Trust me, we don't need the Quake engine to keep Doom running on emerging technologies. The future of Doom feels very secure from where I'm sitting.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Biodegradable

[dasho]

S-Rank shitpost

[houston]

 

[Kinsie]

14 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

1. Vanilla must die. Seriously, this engine was experimental even at the day of release and you can see it by reading some John Carmack dev logs how he would want to make it render right (sprites clipping), the original capabilities of the engine don't scale up to today needs.

Vanilla is dead. Pretty much everything focused on vanilla gameplay these days is limit-removing at minimum. Hardcore purebred DOS executable vanilla is only really practiced by Essel and her cohorts these days, and even then mostly in the name of mad angry science.

 

14 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

2. Quake derived ports are the way to go. Quake runs hundred times faster than Doom on faster systems, yes, if you run Doom on a modern CPU, on DOS, you will still be bound to 100FPS in 320x200 while Quake would give you thousands;

Vavoom exists and does much of this, transplanting Quake concepts into Doom. It's roughly as popular as doing your tax return and as far as I can tell, only one mapper really messes with it.

 

14 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

3. Vanilla lighting can be simulated with Quake lightmaps entirely, more than that you'll get nice shadows and a possibility to make it render beatiful looks on modern systems (hello RTX ON, not Pr-Boom RTX BS);

Not really. Quake lightmaps are typically fairly soft and low-resolution, whereas hand-crafted Doom lights have a razor sharpness to them for some fascinating stylization. Both methods have their advantages and disadvantages, and are great for different applications.

 

In addition, pre-baked Quake-style lightmaps are in development for GZDoom. Check out the Disdain demo on Steam to see an early version of them in the flesh!

 

14 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

4. Vanilla monsters can be made into other engines, more than that, they can be made better if done with more talent and dedication. Wait, there was a total conversion for Quake of such kind called "Your Path Of Destruction" (YPOD) made in 1997 and abandoned because it sucked and required much more development (that's not free.)

 

5. YPOD was made by a group of low motivated students? Doom maps show all the flaws that Quake movement code doesn't fit Doom; Progs.dat were also coded insufficiently well and simply rushed, there was no Doom style lighting.

 

6. We need YPOD2 done right. Yes, it's about having to suit Quake engine to Doom needs. Call it somehow, like Qwadoom, brainstorm please!

So make it yourself. Be the change you wish to see in the world. Especially if that change involves low-poly 3D models of Doom monsters that don't suck shit. We could use us some of those.

 

14 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

7. We need a better Quake map editor that Doom mappers can use easily. Imagine having a Doom Builer made in such a fashion that it converts UDMF GZDoom and Eternity maps with portals and stacked sectors into a Quake brush-work maps. There are some source codes for tools like Doom2Quake that already provide a good basis for that. Having a mode to work with Doom maps in a layered fashion, it's like Eternity portals but real 3D without a need to separate geometry.

"Qwadoom Builder by "QDQ inc.". Ultimate Doom Builder with advanced "Quake" mode called "oh no, it's Quake".

Learn Trenchbroom, nerd. It's easy and awesome.

 

14 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

8. Having light to bake up on static non-map 3d models geometry as well as regular geometry, like it's done in source engine. That would increase performance on dinosaur computers.

Not a trivial technical issue and also one handled really badly by Source Engine since models can only have one UV map, meaning models have to be specifically built for the feature if they don't want to look like a buggy mess. I don't know if GZDoom will cover this since there is no concept of Unreal-style "static meshes" and all 3D model geometry is technically just an actor pretending to be geometry.

 

14 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

If all done right, the whole thing could possible work on wide range of systems, starting with 486 computers like dx-100 in DOS and ending smartphones, resulting in the future Doom gameplay, available on every toilet corner of the world. More advantages? As now it's integrated in Quake engine, it runs both games at once. Will attract more modders and mappers? Who knows. Opinions, critics, laughters?

My thoughts are that this post is nonsense by someone who doesn't know anything about what they're talking about, and, less forgivably, has no interest in learning anything about what they're talking about. Good day.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Kinsie