Picking Bobby Prince tracks for exclusive PS1 levels

[Rudolph]

With the release of Jakub Majewski's Perquisite Strata (aka a Boom-compatible conversion of Playstation Doom's exclusive levels), I was been wondering: if those levels had been included in The Ultimate Doom, what Bobby Prince tracks would have been picked for each level? At first, I tried using the tracklist from Xaser's The Lost Episode, but it does not feel right, as it uses several non-Doom tracks. As we all know, Id Software chose to simply reuse Doom 1's tracks for Thy Flesh Consumed, so I assume they would have done the same had Perquisite Strata been part of the official re-release.

 

For reference, here is Perquisite Strata's map rotation:

1. Hell Gate
2. Hell Keep
3. Twilight Descends
4. The Marshes (Secret)
5. Threshold of Pain
6. The Mansion
7. Club Doom (Secret)
8. Redemption Denied

So what Bobby Prince Doom 1 tracks would you assign to the exclusive Playstation levels?

Edited June 13, 2023 by Rudolph

[Tristan]

Hell Gate

The E2M8 stand-in. I'm assuming we keep all the original IWAD maps alongside these, so it's supposed to have the intensity of a boss map without actually being one. "On the Hunt" feels like a good choice here, it's one of the better Doom 1 tracks imo and matches the tone well enough.

 

Hell Keep

Genuinely drawing a blank here. Best solution would be to follow the console port's example and throw out the original E3M1 in favour of this, and the untitled track would probably be fine, but if we don't do that, this map would be either before E3M1 or between E3M1 and E3M2, and it's generally better to avoid repeating a track so soon after its previous use, so... "Suspense" could work, I guess?

 

Twilight Descends

This would be E4M9 (with secret maps moved to M11 and M12) and Ultimate Doom never repeats tracks in the same episode but... the selection gets cut down so much in episode 4 that it's not even worth keeping the rule. For this map, "Waltz of the Demons" comes to mind first.

The Marshes

"Sinister." There's no other track in Doom 1 that would work here.

 

Threshold of Pain

In theory this is E4M10, so my choice for this is to put "Demons on the Prey" in this map and give E4M8 a different track ("The Demons from Adrian's Pen" maybe).

 

The other 3 are actually Doom II maps so they would use tracks from there instead.

 

The Mansion

"DOOM", for the same reason I picked "Sinister" for The Marshes. It's a dark, suspenseful map, and barring "Opening to Hell" which ideally we'd want to keep exclusive to MAP30, nothing else in the D2 soundtrack comes even close.

 

Club Doom

The gimmick is ruined since there's no music changers in vanilla Doom, so fuck it, "Running from Evil."

 

Redemption Denied

This map goes somewhere between MAP27 and MAP30, so while "Getting Too Tense" and "Shawn's Got the Shotgun" both feel like good picks, neither are viable, which leaves the door wide-open for "Into Sandy's City" to get its much deserved second outing.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Tristan

[Rudolph]

Some excellent choices, and good catch about the last three maps being Doom II's!

 

Listening to your suggested tracklist, however, I find myself disagreeing slightly with in regard to MAP01 and MAP02: I actually think that "On The Hunt" might be more appropriate for American McGee's "Hell Keep" and "Suspense" for "Hell Gate". As for Redemption Denied, it is my understanding that the level serves as Playstation Doom's finale, so I do not understand why you would rule out "Getting Too Tense" - which actually fits the level pretty well!

 

Also, I am surprised that you did not consider "Nobody Told Me About Id" for MAP01 despite correctly pointed out that the map served as a replacement for "Tower of Babel". You do not think it is fit the level's nature and pace?

Edited June 13, 2023 by Rudolph

[Tristan]

I made my picks on the assumption that the PS1 maps are slotted in between the original ones; in this scenario Hell Gate would be immediately before Tower of Babel (PSX Doom bumps it to the end of episode 3, but this isn't needed if Dis is still there), so while having Nobody here could work, it does mean it'd be used on two consecutive maps, which is something I think it's better to avoid.

 

Same deal with Redemption Denied, "Getting too Tense" works, but The Spirit World is still here. As you said, RD is the finale of PSX Doom, specifically it follows Monster Condo so if The Spirit World isn't right next to RD, there would only be one map (The Living End) between them, and to me that's too soon to be repeating tracks.

[Individualised]

  On 6/13/2023 at 9:12 PM, Tristan said:

I made my picks on the assumption that the PS1 maps are slotted in between the original ones

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If we're doing that surely it'd make more sense to move Hell Gate to episode 3.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Individualised

[Rudolph]

  On 6/13/2023 at 9:12 PM, Tristan said:

I made my picks on the assumption that the PS1 maps are slotted in between the original ones; in this scenario Hell Gate would be immediately before Tower of Babel (PSX Doom bumps it to the end of episode 3, but this isn't needed if Dis is still there), so while having Nobody here could work, it does mean it'd be used on two consecutive maps, which is something I think it's better to avoid.

 

Same deal with Redemption Denied, "Getting too Tense" works, but The Spirit World is still here. As you said, RD is the finale of PSX Doom, specifically it follows Monster Condo so if The Spirit World isn't right next to RD, there would only be one map (The Living End) between them, and to me that's too soon to be repeating tracks.

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That is fair. I like "Suspense" for that map better than "Nobody Told Me About Id" anyway.

 

I still prefer "Getting Too Tense" for "Redemption Denied", however: "Into Sandy's City" lacks the same climactic quality.

[Devalaous]

  On 6/13/2023 at 8:18 PM, Tristan said:

Hell Gate

The E2M8 stand-in. I'm assuming we keep all the original IWAD maps alongside these, so it's supposed to have the intensity of a boss map without actually being one. "On the Hunt" feels like a good choice here, it's one of the better Doom 1 tracks imo and matches the tone well enough.

 

Hell Keep

Genuinely drawing a blank here. Best solution would be to follow the console port's example and throw out the original E3M1 in favour of this, and the untitled track would probably be fine, but if we don't do that, this map would be either before E3M1 or between E3M1 and E3M2, and it's generally better to avoid repeating a track so soon after its previous use, so... "Suspense" could work, I guess?

 

Twilight Descends

This would be E4M9 (with secret maps moved to M11 and M12) and Ultimate Doom never repeats tracks in the same episode but... the selection gets cut down so much in episode 4 that it's not even worth keeping the rule. For this map, "Waltz of the Demons" comes to mind first.

The Marshes

"Sinister." There's no other track in Doom 1 that would work here.

 

Threshold of Pain

In theory this is E4M10, so my choice for this is to put "Demons on the Prey" in this map and give E4M8 a different track ("The Demons from Adrian's Pen" maybe).

 

The other 3 are actually Doom II maps so they would use tracks from there instead.

 

The Mansion

"DOOM", for the same reason I picked "Sinister" for The Marshes. It's a dark, suspenseful map, and barring "Opening to Hell" which ideally we'd want to keep exclusive to MAP30, nothing else in the D2 soundtrack comes even close.

 

Club Doom

The gimmick is ruined since there's no music changers in vanilla Doom, so fuck it, "Running from Evil."

 

Redemption Denied

This map goes somewhere between MAP27 and MAP30, so while "Getting Too Tense" and "Shawn's Got the Shotgun" both feel like good picks, neither are viable, which leaves the door wide-open for "Into Sandy's City" to get its much deserved second outing.

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Whenever I get around to attempting pure IWAD texture conversions of these levels and inserting them into a 'deluxe' Doom and Doom 2 campaign, imma give these assignments a good consideration

 

  On 6/13/2023 at 9:17 PM, Individualised said:

If we're doing that surely it'd make more sense to move Hell Gate to episode 3.

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Hell Gate has always been a Deimos level

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Devalaous

[Rudolph]

  On 6/14/2023 at 2:48 AM, Devalaous said:

Whenever I get around to attempting pure IWAD texture conversions of these levels and inserting them into a 'deluxe' Doom and Doom 2 campaign

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Tell me more.

[Devalaous]

  On 6/14/2023 at 2:59 AM, Rudolph said:

Tell me more.

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It's simple in theory. Take either Kaiser's conversions or the ones from No Consolation, strip all the console textures and decorations, and make them look like they were proper lost levels, using only IWAD stuff (which also means rebalancing Hell Keep (single Revenant), Twilight Descends (two nightmare spectres) The Marshes (SSG replaced, Hell Knights replaced with Barons) and Threshold of Pain (Oh jesus, 7 nightmare spectres, 14 pain elementals *39* Hell knights)

 

I'd likely have Hell Gate right before Tower of Babel, the new Hell Keep after the original (renaming the original in the process out of neccessity; id DID outright replace this map afterall) and Tristan's placement of the three E4 levels

 

Doom 2 on the other hand, The Mansion would best be suited to a normal Hell level, as having map 15 AND map 16 both have a secret level with a supersecret level is bad flow, and sure enough, Perquisite Strata makes it a normal map (oddly, No Consolation made The Marshes a normal level instead). I'd probably put Redemption Denied as after Spirit World, a final showdown with the Masterminds, as Living End has a final Cyberdemon fight, even if its skippable. UMAPINFO and other xINFOs can set up The Marshes and Redemption Denied's boss actions to work in most ports too. I cant see stuff like Crispy supporting a mapset like this.

 

All this also makes me want community midis for the 8 console levels + Betray, in the same vein as how Ultimate Doom, Doom 2 and Sewers all got brandnew community midis.

[Muusi]

Bobby music in PS1 levels?! You can't just do that! This is the most ludicrous thread I've ever seen!

[Devalaous]

  On 6/14/2023 at 6:35 AM, Muusi said:

Bobby music in PS1 levels?! You can't just do that! This is the most ludicrous thread I've ever seen!

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Its not about the PS1 itself, but more 'what stock music would these levels have, if they had ALWAYS been part of the original game?' Two of the eight levels were reportedly made by American McGee, thus actually id-made, so its a valid question.

[Muusi]

  On 6/14/2023 at 6:46 AM, Devalaous said:

 

Its not about the PS1 itself, but more 'what stock music would these levels have, if they had ALWAYS been part of the original game?' Two of the eight levels were reportedly made by American McGee, thus actually id-made, so its a valid question.

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Just a joke :D

[Individualised]

  On 6/14/2023 at 2:48 AM, Devalaous said:

 

Hell Gate has always been a Deimos level

 

 

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It is but doesn't fit in with the level order. Therefore moving it to Inferno makes more sense as Doom CE does

[Wadmodder Shalton]

First, one should make a "Lost Levels" Doom WAD project that takes the levels cut from Doom 1's development found in the alpha builds, Doom II's cut maps found in the July 1994 maps, and lastly the maps found in Romero's Doom asset dump, followed by adding extra details to the cut maps to match the retail Doom & Doom II aesthetics and lastly adding the console-exclusive maps before using Bobby Prince's stock music.

[Jakub Majewski]

  On 6/14/2023 at 2:48 AM, Devalaous said:

Whenever I get around to attempting pure IWAD texture conversions of these levels

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Erm... isn't this pretty much what Perquisite Strata does?

 

While it's fun to theorise which Bobby Prince tracks fit best, we could also picture a different kind of an alternate timeline: if id software actually released those levels as an additional episode, and couldn't license Bobby to create more tracks, they could go for another option...

They could ask the guys behind TNT to create some tracks :D. Or you know, just reuse them.

 

Come to think of it, a Community MIDI Pack for the WAD would be nice. I'm not sure if there is enough interest in it though. The module tracker recreations of the PSX music that appear in Perquisite Strata X seem like a fine substitute(if we can call them that; they pretty much sound like the real thing).

[Devalaous]

  On 6/14/2023 at 8:41 AM, Jakub Majewski said:

Erm... isn't this pretty much what Perquisite Strata does?

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Nope, your wad has the fire skies, Doom 2 textures in the Doom levels, and its for Boom. What im doing is inserting the 5 Ultimate Doom levels into the original mapset, the other three into Doom 2, and stripping out anything that isn't actually in the base vanilla assets. So Hell Gate has the Deimos sky that it does in the Jaguar/GBA release, and all those ROCK2 textures at the very beginning that are from Doom 2 are now METAL2 as an example. Ive seen lots of conversions that mimic the console features and looks, but never one that tried to make them look like they always belonged, so as they say: 'be the change that you want to see' Im sure my conversions will suck as im totally a newbie at UDB, but im having fun doing it myself and thats what matters :D

[Jakub Majewski]

Oh, that's what you meant. After converting the maps, I used SLADE to redirect all the sectors and walls to use Doom2's IWAD assets, adding custom textures came later. I suppose if you want the maps without the latter, the PSX conversions by Kaiser from 2002 that are on idgames are what you'd be more interested in. A Club Doom port of this style would pretty much lose it's colour though, and end up looking like the Sega Saturn version instead. Of course, you could take Perquisite Strata, remove all the new assets, then fill in the missing textures with anything of your choice. Keep in mind though, the UMAPINFO lump is what allows the boss death action specials to work.

[Rudolph]

  On 6/14/2023 at 3:30 AM, Devalaous said:

All this also makes me want community midis for the 8 console levels + Betray, in the same vein as how Ultimate Doom, Doom 2 and Sewers all got brandnew community midis.

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Wait, "Sewers" and "Betray" got their own community MIDIs?!? :o

 

Anyway, so what you are basically suggesting here is The Definitive Doom! :D

Edited June 14, 2023 by Rudolph

[Devalaous]

  On 6/14/2023 at 11:19 AM, Rudolph said:

Wait, "Sewers" and "Betray" got their own community MIDIs?!? :o

 

Anyway, so what you are basically suggestions is The Definitive Doom! :D

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Only Sewers did, its midi is hidden away in the Ultimate MIDI Pack. Its titled 'An Eye For (and of) Molecules'

[Rudolph]

  On 6/14/2023 at 11:34 AM, Devalaous said:

Only Sewers did, its midi is hidden away in the Ultimate MIDI Pack. Its titled 'An Eye For (and of) Molecules'

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Ah, I see it. Sorry, I misread your comment and came to the conclusion that "Betray" also got a new MIDI.