When did you "peak" as a mapper?

[Silhouette 03]

Hello :)

 

This is probably the strangest question I've asked here, and the most difficult one, since I'm not asking a question on how a map works. I'm not especially good with words, so I apologize if this comes out wrong, or I word this poorly. My intention here is never to vent, let off steam or whine. I love mapping and want to get better, but I also want to understand a bit more if I'm doing something wrong. The type of ASD(Autism Spectrum Disorder) I have makes it very difficult for me to communicate properly, so again, I apologize if this post comes off the wrong way or I communicate something poorly.

 

When did you as a mapper start making maps where each map wasn't better then the last, or rather, you made maps of a consistent quality?

 

Because I'm a novice mapper, my maps tend to be where each map is better then the last because of practice and the refining of skill. I've been mapping for two years now, and I'm still at the stage where my maps are each better then the last. Last year, I participated in NaNoWadMo, and wanted to create a small mapset. I eventually scrapped it as I realized that I'd be releasing something I know I could do better with more practice. Maybe it's just me being a perfectionist(which is probably the truth) but I want to one day release something that I know will be of a consistent quality, that people will want to play and I will be mostly happy with, and not see the flaws in areas or section that I was happy with immediately after making and submitting that map to a community project.

 

The reason I'm asking this is that I'm still struggling to make even the most basic of areas or architecture, and I still have these horrible blocks. The last map I made for RAMP was a nightmare to finish, as I got block after block. I understand that these blocks are normal and that even experienced mappers get them, but I'd like to make a map without having half a dozen blocks at once, and am able to make what I want to make, and not rely on compromises for the sake of actually finishing the map.

 

A long time ago, I made a thread asking for advice on mapping in general, and people like Murdoch and Ronniejamesdiner commented on it , giving me advice on mapping( not the making of a map itself, rather showing me that I will eventually get there) how wonderful and kind this community is. I'm a very stubborn person, and I'm not giving up. I made a promise to someone kind, and I want to keep that promise, come hell or high water. I just want some certainty that all this work will actually work out in the end, and that I will be able to match up to all the talented folks in the community who have shown me kindness and patience( which is pretty much every single person, mapper or non-mapper, who I've communicated with in this community).

 

I understand that patience is a necessary trait for a mapper, which is something I learnt over time( I was 17 when I started and I'm 20 now), but as I mentioned before, some certainty would be much appreciated.

 

If you read this organized chaos of a thread, then I hope you have a lovely day :) 

 

[Mr Masker]

I remember somehow being allowed onto Hellevator. It was a pretty mediocre map I probably shouldn't have been let in...

 

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/MAP08:_The_Criminal_Floor_(Hellevator)

It even has a wiki page. :)

[RataUnderground]

As Hokusai said...
 

Quote

"Since the age of six, I have had a passion for drawing things. Now that I am 75 years, I have finally learned something of the true quality of birds, animals, insects, fishes, and of the vital nature of grasses and trees. By the time I am 89, I shall have made more progress. By the time I am 90, I shall understand the deeper meaning of things. When I am 100, I shall be truly marvelous; and at 110 each dot and each line will possess a life of its own."

You will never peak if you keep learning. Every time you'll be a better mapper than yesterday.

Edited June 14, 2023 by RataUnderground

[Silhouette 03]

17 minutes ago, Mr Masker said:

I remember somehow being allowed onto Hellevator. It was a pretty mediocre map I probably shouldn't have been let in...

I'm looking at it now, and it looks great from a layout perspective. I've yet to play Hellevator so I can't really comment much about the map, but I'm happy for you that this got in :D

 

3 minutes ago, RataUnderground said:

As Hokusai said..

Wow, this is powerful.

 

3 minutes ago, RataUnderground said:

You will never peak if you keep learning.

 I didn't understand what you meant here at first, but I think I see what you mean now. Thanks for this. I wasn't expecting to get a motivational push like this.

[OceanMadman]

This and last year I made the best maps I've ever created. I've been mapping for three years now, and it makes me a bit embarrased when I look at maps that I made only two years ago because all the flaws there are, but it also makes me happy how much I've improved in a couple of years. From what I've seen from your submission to Doomed Urbex you are already a pretty good mapper, but don't be afraid of trying to improve and experimenting a bit with your maps.

[Silhouette 03]

2 minutes ago, OceanMadman said:

his and last year I made the best maps I've ever created.

I'm happy that you've made maps that make you happy and other people too :)

 

3 minutes ago, OceanMadman said:

I look at maps that I made only two years ago because all the flaws there are, but it also makes me happy how much I've improved in a couple of years.

 I should really start looking back at things differently. My first map was terrible, my second one more so, but my fourth released one is where I felt that this was something I liked and wanted to keep going.

6 minutes ago, OceanMadman said:

From what I've seen from your submission to Doomed Urbex you are already a pretty good mapper,

 Wow, I appreciate the compliment. I'm beginning to realize that I'm being way too hard on myself, mostly because I'm desperate to improve

8 minutes ago, OceanMadman said:

don't be afraid of trying to improve and experimenting a bit with your maps.

 From my Doomed Urbex submission I've been trying something new with every map. With the map I've been working on for thelamp's CP, I've been focusing on more  basic doomcute(read: trees!) in my maps and desperately trying to make my maps less square XD

 

Thanks for responding, and have a lovely day.

[Vladguy]

Honestly, I don't know. Perhaps being in Jamal Jones? My mind's so foggy when it comes to remembering my own life online and offline...

..yeah, Jamal was probably when I peaked.

i bet a future wad release will make this statement false

[Silhouette 03]

Just now, Vladguy said:

yeah, Jamal was probably when I peaked.

I'm happy for you. I love Doomkid( and co.)'s map's so I'm definitely checking out Jamal Jones sometime.

1 minute ago, Vladguy said:

i bet a future wad release will make this statement false

Hell Yeah! Keep mapping!

["JL" was too short]

My map in the first iteration of RAMP (2021) was probably the first map I've made where I'm wholly satisfied with the overall player-facing package and wouldn't change much of anything looking back.

Under the hood, some of it is still pretty yucky.  I've definitely continued to expand my skill level when it comes to scripting, lol.

[Silhouette 03]

2 minutes ago, jerrysheppy said:

My map in the first iteration of RAMP (2021) was probably the first map I've made where I'm wholly satisfied with the overall player-facing package and wouldn't change much of anything looking back.

My first map where I really felt that I was progressing was also in the first RAMP. I still like that map, despite it being very rough around the edges.

 

4 minutes ago, jerrysheppy said:

Under the hood, some of it is still pretty yucky. 

I'm sure that you're just being too hard on yourself :)

 

[xScavengerWolfx]

As a novice mapper i will say this: For me the only way i would ever "peak" as a mapper is when i make a map or a mapset that surpasses mega wads like Scythe 1 & 2 (that will never happen) but i also ask myself this as well "if i hit the peak of my mapping career...then what? What would be the point of mapping if i already made a mapset that is worth it?"

 

I think the "peak" for me would be my ultimate doom map set (which i am almost done with ep. 2) when it is finished, all four episodes i believe that would be my peak in mapping since i started with Doom 2 mapping before someone called i think there name was Snaxalotl or something and they made some kind of ultimate doom mega wad called Stickeny Installation, i don't know if you've heard of it but who knows. Anyways if it wasn't for that i would've never got into ultimate doom mapping. 

 

Anyways overall i'll do a short and stale comment: I don't believe in "hitting the peak" if hitting the peak too soon then what is the point of trying to make myself better and learn more about different mapping tricks.

[Silhouette 03]

2 minutes ago, xScavengerWolfx said:

I think the "peak" for me would be my ultimate doom map set

it's cool that you're making a UD mapset. There really should be more of those

 

4 minutes ago, xScavengerWolfx said:

I don't believe in "hitting the peak" if hitting the peak too soon then what is the point of trying to make myself better and learn more about different mapping tricks.

That's a really good point. I see now that there is no peak, and continuous improvement is part of mapping in general. Thanks Scav :) 

[CyberosLeopard]

A very interesting topic; I think I’ll throw my half a cent into it. Also, proof-reading this and re-reading the above posts, I'll try to not be too negative, but I'll also be honest.

 

A little difficult to say, but I would guess around 2015 or-so. I’ve been mapping since the latter 2000’s (‘06 at the earliest, definitely by ‘08), and while I have certainly grown and improved, I feel that my levels have plateaued in terms of general quality. I think at that point I gained a reasonable understanding on what works and what doesn't (at least for my play-style). And that’s not to say that I’m not more knowledgeable now, lurking here and on the ZDoom forums has been most helpful. I understand more about Doom now (and by adjacent Doom mapping) than I did back then, but for me there is ultimately a disconnect between knowing and execution (this likely a me thing).

 

In the end, I'll make some okay'ish maps; some poor and some that I really ought to reconsider. What I've ultimately found is that the act of mapping itself ought to be enjoyable, regardless of the end result; that the creating of a level is the ‘game’, for lack of a better phrase. As long as you enjoy the maps you make, and enjoy the process of making them, then I don't think there is anything to be concerned about.

[esselfortium]

I'm still eternally chasing after the "perfect" esselfortium map, always just out of reach. Maybe someday. (I doubt it!)

[Horus]

2020, which is when almost all my mapping activity occurred. Ever since I released Viscous Realms in 2021 (for which most of the work was done in 2020), I have barely done any mapping for various reasons, basically a mixture of IRL stuff and missing inspiration. Hoping 2023 is the year to at least get the ball rolling again.

[nicolas monti]

It depends, I think you peak when you are "in loved" with your own wad or you consider it something that cannot be repeated. 

[Bobby :D]

If you never stop chasing new ideas in Doom, you will never peak, but you will almost always have fun with the process. I think that's more important than anything else.

[Andrea Rovenski]

yesterday

[Ralphis]

Let me tell you something, I haven't even begun to peak. And when I do peak, you'll know. Because I'm gonna peak so hard that everybody in Doom's gonna feel it.

[Shakariki Heisenberg]

prolly like this week, and whenever im tired or high thats when i make the best maps ever.
but im obv improving everyday 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Shakariki Heisenberg

[spineapple tea]

I hope I haven't peaked yet, everything I've made is trash!

[OverflowingMocha]

I'd say probably my map for the third episode of Jamal Jones, Future Hometown is my peak, at least so far. I don't think I've ever gotten as much praise for a map as that one, and I really appreciated it, really helped to show me that there's at least someone out there who likes the stuff that you make, especially all the praise I got from Cammy was amazing to me, since I really looked up to them for all their contributions to the doom community. I don't really like that map anymore, but I see it as a nessesary step to build up my mapping skills.

 

The thing is though, at least in my case, despite starting to release maps somewhere in 2021, (I think, I don't remember when 30 Monsters CP started anymore since that's the first CP I made a map for) so being around in the community for a tiny bit, I think I'm still too young of a mapper to really give you a guess as to what I think is my peak, I haven't even released anything on my own, weather it's a single map or a mapset, maybe I will at some point or never will and just stick to Community Projects.

 

Besides, I don't think that matters, at least to me, I mostly make maps just for myself. Sure, it's nice that others play them and then give me their opinions on said maps, but if I only made maps for other people, mapping would be a job, and not a hobby of mine. I hope that makes sense...

 

This is still an interesting question that I wanted to answer, though.

 

8 hours ago, Silhouette 03 said:

I'm beginning to realize that I'm being way too hard on myself, mostly because I'm desperate to improve.

 

Eh, you're always going to be way too hard on yourself, I think that's always something you'll do at some point with whatever kind of art you make, also applies to doom mapping, or just modding in general even. But yeah, you should probably focus more on how much you're improving and what can you do to improve further instead of beating yourself up for mistakes that you're currently making.

 

I'm sure that you'll improve, slowly or quickly, at some point, and you'll keep improving for as long as you keep on mapping.

[RonnieJamesDiner]

I don’t know if I’ve just been experiencing some kind of selective perception bias, but over the past year or so, I feel like I’ve seen more mappers having these introspective breakdowns/discussions than I ever remember seeing. Discord might be a big part of that. I’m sure it’s natural in any creative medium, but it just feels weird with Doom mapping.

 

Maybe it’s over saturated and people feel like they’re clawing at each other for the spotlight. Maybe after 30 years, Doom has been so over-analyzed to death that people forget it’s just a goofy FPS where you kill green-haired zombie men with guns that don’t reload. Maybe the Cacoward Cabal really is casting some spooky witchcraft upon the hearts of wayward mappers caught in the open. Who am I to say.

 

If you keep mapping, you will improve. Maybe not by leaps and bounds, maybe without the fanfare and the accolades, but you will get better. And you'll get out of this whatever worth you give your own time and effort.

 

It's worth remembering how awesome it is to be a Doom fan. The amount of high quality maps at our fingertips is insane. There are more ridiculously well made midis, textures, and sprites freely available to mappers than they’d ever need. The source port and editing program developers / maintainers are doing the lords work. The wiki may as well be the Doom bible that never was. The community is hilarious, supportive, insightful, maddeningly creative, and just the right amount of absolutely bonkers. Some of the YT channels, Discord servers, and other websites dedicated to this game are gems to discover. The community is so badass that even John Romero realized it was worth stepping knee-deep back into this shit.

 

If you’re stuck in a loop stressing over the mapping process, over proving something to yourself or the rest of us, you're missing an entire world of fun. Go play some WADs. Play some timeless masterpieces and some shameless piles of garbage. Listen to some of the excellent music made around here. Go watch some of your favorite Dean of Doom episodes, or listen to mappers spill their sweet nothings into Nirvana’s ear. Download some GZDoom mods and see what kind of wild, wacky stuff is out there. Try making a room with a texture pack you’ve never used before, or fiddle with a color palette. Find out what it’s like to speedrun your favorite level.

 

Sometimes, it's best to enjoy the community instead of letting it pile drive you into some sort of mapping pit. The editor will always be there when inspiration strikes proper. 

[Death Bear]

I haven't peaked yet, but there are some high points, and there are some plateaus. I feel like when I have breakthroughs, they aren't lost on me...I definitely notice them. It's a feeling I have a hard time explaining...but it usually results in a giddy joy. Even during burnout I'm still mapping, for better or worse. I definitely don't feel like I'm consistent in quality...but I can't win 'em all. I'll let all the young kids and the community voices decide when my peak was when either I quit mapping, or I die...if they want to spend the time to care enough about my catalogue in that context.

I've loved getting to see a good amount of your mapping journey. Keep it up! (HMU anytime you need someone to play your work!)

[Kinetic]

Think I'm not at my peak for mapping yet, trying to diversify the types of maps I make and I think I can map faster now than I did before, only issue is I don't spend a lot of time mapping.

[Silhouette 03]

9 hours ago, CyberosLeopard said:

In the end, I'll make some okay'ish maps; some poor and some that I really ought to reconsider.

I honestly think you're too hard on yourself, like me in a way XD

Thanks for responding :)

8 hours ago, esselfortium said:

I'm still eternally chasing after the "perfect" esselfortium map, always just out of reach. Maybe someday. (I doubt it!)

 Same here. It'll probably be years before I get to a point where I can make maps I personally brand as perfect(i.e. I like everything about it), but I'm looking forward to that. I should really tell myself that more often.

 

By the way, I played your Ancient Aliens map a few months ago and It's probably my favourite map in the whole megawad. Visually stunning, the layout flows nicely and it fits my love of exploration maps.

Oh, and thanks so much for moving this thread. I wasn't sure which editing subforum this should go to. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Horus said:

Hoping 2023 is the year to at least get the ball rolling again.

Go for it.

5 hours ago, Shakariki Heisenberg said:

but im obv improving everyday

Keep practicing, and have fun :D

5 hours ago, spineapple tea said:

I hope I haven't peaked yet, everything I've made is trash

I haven't played any of your maps, but I'm sure you're being way too hard on yourself. Keep at it!

 

  

3 hours ago, LGmaire said:

Eh, you're always going to be way too hard on yourself, I think that's always something you'll do at some point with whatever kind of art you make, also applies to doom mapping, or just modding in general even. But yeah, you should probably focus more on how much you're improving and what can you do to improve further instead of beating yourself up for mistakes that you're currently making.

That's a fair point. I should really stop doing that to myself.

Thanks for responding!

2 hours ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

Sometimes, it's best to enjoy the community instead of letting it pile drive you into some sort of mapping pit. The editor will always be there when inspiration strikes proper. 

You're right. Hopefully this thread doesn't come across as a breakdown. The reason I started it was to see where other mappers felt that they were at the best of their ability, and if the place where I stood was any different. I just sometimes have the feeling that I'm unintentionally doing something wrong. I now see that there is no peak, and improvement is a continuous process. Thanks for the insight.

2 hours ago, Death Bear said:

I've loved getting to see a good amount of your mapping journey. Keep it up! (HMU anytime you need someone to play your work!)

Thank you, I'll keep that in mind. Hopefully you'll see a lot more of my maps soon :)

1 hour ago, Kinetic said:

Think I'm not at my peak for mapping yet, trying to diversify the types of maps I make and I think I can map faster now than I did before, only issue is I don't spend a lot of time mapping.

 I'm glad. My maps are all exploration based, though I have been getting into trying arena combat. Thanks for responding!  

[RonnieJamesDiner]

6 hours ago, Silhouette 03 said:

You're right. Hopefully this thread doesn't come across as a breakdown. The reason I started it was to see where other mappers felt that they were at the best of their ability, and if the place where I stood was any different. I just sometimes have the feeling that I'm unintentionally doing something wrong. I now see that there is no peak, and improvement is a continuous process. Thanks for the insight.

 

Ah, sorry, by "breakdown" I just meant... "breaking something down to analyze it, get a better look at all the pieces, etc.", rather than a mental breakdown (though, I've seen that too!).    

[MFG38]

20 hours ago, Silhouette 03 said:

Last year, I participated in NaNoWadMo, and wanted to create a small mapset. I eventually scrapped it as I realized that I'd be releasing something I know I could do better with more practice. Maybe it's just me being a perfectionist [...]

 

One thing I want to say regarding this, especially the bolded part: the thing that helped me break out of my mapping perfectionism was learning how to speedmap. I was a very slow mapper before I decided to give it a spin - in some ways, I still am, but speedmapping has taught me an important lesson about the beauty of simplicity. Giving yourself a time limit to make a map under forces you to be efficient with your time - if you want to produce something playable in an hour, you can't spend 15 minutes splitting a single linedef into multiple parts and aligning them.

 

What I personally especially like to do lately is give myself a time limit - usually 30 minutes, sometimes more - to draw just the general layout of a map. No texturing, no lighting, no fancy micro-detailing, just a layout. That already gives me an idea as to the progression and type of gameplay that I want to go for. Once I have that, I do the rest without any time limits. And by employing that sort of workflow, I've found that not only do I produce some of my best maps lately, but more importantly, I can finish maps faster that way because I tend to not get stuck as often as I used to.

 

(Also, on the topic of NaNoWadMo, people have made full megawads during it, Yours Truly included. How? Speedmapping.)

 

There's a surprising amount of truth to the saying "limitations breed creativity". So speedmapping might be the ticket for you. Or maybe it isn't. Either way, you won't know until you try.

[Roofi]

As long I'm able to finish maps, I think I'm still at the peak.

[LexiMax]

For me, I consider peaking to be equivalent to output.  I like trying new and fresh things, and if I don't have an "idea" I simply don't open the editor.

 

By that standard, 2004 was far and away my best year because I finished around 10 maps and detailed and finished for other people a fair few more between ZDaemon CTF 1&2 and UDM3.  I don't know that I'll ever be that productive or creative again.

 

But what's wild is that my second most productive year was last year; 8 maps and a custom gamemode in 2022.  So less of a single peak, and more of a series of peaks and valleys.  I suppose the lesson is that your best days might actually be ahead of you.

Edited June 16, 2023 by LexiMax