Overly-generous secrets in Doom

[Rudolph]

It has always bothered me how some secrets in Doom are just way too generous.

 

I can sort of understand E1M3's Soulsphere/Megaarmor secret near the regular exit, as it is accessible right before a room full of enemies and the extra health and armor might prove useful to a less-skilled player... although the Yellow Keycard requirement suggests to me that the secret was designed with skilled players in mind, so I still have to wonder what use would the secret's powerups be to them.

 

However, you also have Doom II's MAP06 with its Megasphere/Mega Armor combo, which strikes me as incredibly redundant: by the time you get to this secret, you have fought your way past the Spider Mastermind - which can easily be dealt with using the level's titular crusher - and there is already a Megasphere at the very beginning of the map that is much easier to acquire. In what situation would a player need an extra Megaarmor right after picking a Megasphere, especially if they are skilled enough to make their way to that secret room in the first place?

 

Does anyone know? Did the developers explain their rationale behind such secrets?

Edited June 16, 2023 by Rudolph

[Lucius Wooding]

Getting goodies is nice. Don't spoil it by questioning them.

 

In all likelihood these examples are designed to benefit continuous players since you can collect them before you exit. And for those players who piss away health and ammo it's always nice to accommodate them at least through the early levels (especially map06 which throws revenants at you in the start and you need to backtrack through the area). After all, the first episodes of Doom 1 and 2 are both loaded with hitscan so having the extra health and armor is always a big help. Nobody gets excited for secrets with 3 armor bonuses and a rocket inside, they don't really give you motivation or reward to look for them.

 

It really doesn't change the difficulty of the level since the IWADs are generally so easy in standard play unless you're a noob. Whether there are 2 health pickups or 200 you're not likely to pick them clean if you know what you're doing. To me it matters more what types of hits the player will take and how big of a health stack they get at a time, not their ability to replenish said health stack. For example, if you place 5 green armors and a pile of medikits in an area with archies, revenants, and cybers, it's possible to die easily from being one shotted or comboed (or fights where you get blocked or cornered; you die regardless of your health). Those extra pickups may as well not be there in that case in terms of what the real threat is. It also matters how easy backtracking is (Such as The Mucus Flow where it's intentionally a chore) and whether you lock the player in for each fight or let them roam. 

 

What having lots of health really accomplishes is letting the player press forward and run wild. It's a different experience when you're almost dead and have to go really slow, especially so with lots of hitscan around. Placing the health in a secret will often make a blind run a bit more gritty but allow the player who finds the secrets to gain the upper hand and increase the pace of the map. It's more a matter of taste which is more fun, personally I can vibe with both at times and often both can work in sections of the same map.

[Electro Rage]

I don't see the point in complaining! A megasphere AND megaarmor to come to AFTER I complete the map? Yessir!

[Rudolph]

I am not really complaining, I just find it weird. :P

[Stupid Bunny]

I have to say, I am always fine with the understated little secrets that don’t contain half the health in a map.  I like finding secrets that are just a few shells or a medikit that are no map-changing bounty, but are enough to tilt things in your favor a bit. I even like the silly ones that are just a single health bonus, because just finding them is still fun—as the Gummi Bears or something said, it’s not about the first step or the last step, but the steps in between

 

That said, I do enjoy also the maps that entice you with a mystery yellow key but no yellow doors to be found, or a ledge behind a grate with a soulsphere and a bunch of kit, that take a little more searching and a bit of luck but will pay off a lot Monroe when you do.  Ever since E1M3 a flashing blue globe out of reach is just the most beautiful tantalizing image to me.

 

Balancing secrets is a little tricky in this sense. I feel like the best secret should make the map a lot more manageable, but not completely trivialize the entire thing. Obviously some of this can be addressed by making the secret accessible only later in the map (right by the exit if you want to be a troll).  You can also make the map almost impossible without the secret, but I generally also try not to make it so that the secrets are essentially necessary to win.

[GarrettChan]

Honestly, how do you define "overly-generous" in 1993/1994's standard? Obviously in 2023, everybody has higher skill level, so they may find even 100 cells too generous, but probably that's not a case in 1993/1994.

[Rudolph]

Just now, GarrettChan said:

Honestly, how do you define "overly-generous" in 1993/1994's standard?

Well, like I said, a Megasphere and a Megaarmor in the same room feels like overkill.

 

I have yet to play "The Crusher" on PS1, however; maybe the secret is more helpful when you are playing with a controller?

[baja blast rd.]

Secrets are not always about whether the resources make sense.

 

 

Heaven Stroll for anyone who wants to know the map @Rudolph

Edited June 21, 2023 by baja blast rd.

[Rudolph]

What map is this?

 

@baja blast rd.

[KeaganDunn]

The best secrets are the ones in various Ribbiks maps where all you get is a single armor bonus. Or it's just a secret sector with a barrel, made accessible by solving a convoluted puzzle.

[Scypek2]

On 6/16/2023 at 2:54 PM, Rudolph said:

However, you also have Doom II's MAP06 with its Megasphere/Mega Armor combo, which strikes me as incredibly redundant

 

There's actually an interesting explanation for this one. Many of Doom 2's levels were made before all of the custom enemies and items were added, and then rather than thinking about balance every time they just did some replacements to make the new stuff appear more often. And so most of the pain elementals originally used to be cacodemons, and a lot of the megaspheres started out as soulspheres, including the MAP06 one. It makes a lot more sense that way!

[Rudolph]

@Scypek2 That makes way too much sense. Where did you hear that?

[Scypek2]

A bunch of places I think, but I mostly noticed it when playing the unfinished Doom 2 levels shared by John Romero.

[Rudolph]

17 minutes ago, Scypek2 said:

A bunch of places I think, but I mostly noticed it when playing the unfinished Doom 2 levels shared by John Romero.

Now, I want to play a Doom 1-ified Doom II! :P

[brick]

23 hours ago, Lucius Wooding said:

It really doesn't change the difficulty of the level since the IWADs are generally so easy in standard play unless you're a noob.

You have to remember id didn't design these secrets for players who had been playing the game for 30 years and can UV-max Italo-Doom. Put yourself back in 1993. Everyone was a noob. The game had just come out. Many of us were playing with keyboard tank controls, those who could handle it were on the mouse - ball mouse of course, and with no way to separate X turning from Y movement. The secrets definitely affected difficulty. Sure pro speedrunners were already there, but they were not the majority of the million or so buyers of the game, and I doubt id balanced the game specifically for them, not to mention the competitive level was nothing like it is today.

 

1 hour ago, Scypek2 said:

rather than thinking about balance every time they just did some replacements

I don't know if I'm convinced by this. Even on maps that aren't too different between the July WIP and the final release, there are significant texture changes, the architecture sometimes varies dramatically, and item placement is often completely different and not just simple replacements (I find the July maps to often be more difficult - check out those demons you have to pistol in MAP01).

[Individualised]

2 hours ago, Scypek2 said:

 

There's actually an interesting explanation for this one. Many of Doom 2's levels were made before all of the custom enemies and items were added, and then rather than thinking about balance every time they just did some replacements to make the new stuff appear more often. And so most of the pain elementals originally used to be cacodemons, and a lot of the megaspheres started out as soulspheres, including the MAP06 one. It makes a lot more sense that way!

It's hard to say whether this is true or not. Many of Doom 2's actors were implemented pretty early on in development, possibly before many of the maps were designed. Some Doom 2 maps were originally cut from Doom 1 though.

17 minutes ago, brick said:

I don't know if I'm convinced by this. Even on maps that aren't too different between the July WIP and the final release, there are significant texture changes, the architecture sometimes varies dramatically, and item placement is often completely different and not just simple replacements (I find the July maps to often be more difficult - check out those demons you have to pistol in MAP01).

Texture changes were because a bunch of textures had to be cut from Doom 2 late in development due to storage limitations. They probably wanted to include all Doom 1 textures originally. As for the difficulty changes, that prototype was from when the map order had just changed to more closely match the final order, so the levels hadn't been rebalanced yet. This also explains some texture and architectural changes as some maps (i.e. techbase maps became city maps) were originally assigned to different episodes.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Individualised

[Andrea Rovenski]

its to balance out the secret in map25 of doom 2 :) 

[Lucius Wooding]

51 minutes ago, brick said:

The game had just come out. Many of us were playing with keyboard tank controls, those who could handle it were on the mouse - ball mouse of course, and with no way to separate X turning from Y movement. The secrets definitely affected difficulty.

 

Secrets affected difficulty, yes. But in terms of balancing it those terrible players still had to be able to beat the game without finding them, in theory. What doesn't affect difficulty much is the presence of redundant pickups. You can still die from bad mistakes if they compound too quickly, even if you have plenty of recovery between fights. You can't carry both a megasphere and megaarmor with you so giving the player both doesn't help them in the context of a single fight/section. They have to survive it in order to backtrack and resupply, and then the level is often pretty much over outside of continuous runs. The availability of health matters a lot more in those cases than the total amount in the map.

 

Also being a noob in this context doesn't mean comparing to a modern expert level player. It just means comparing a clueless kid to someone with an understanding of the game's mechanics and design. In 1996 when I first played Doom I didn't know how to bully pinkies by baiting their melee, infinite height stuff, I didn't understand target prioritization and went after the biggest monsters first, I didn't understand how dangerous hitscan was (so E4M1 was a rude awakening for me). I'm doing much better now but I sure as shit can't beat Italo Doom, I don't know about you. But even in 1993 those kinds of concepts existed for players who paid attention, even if they played keyboard. I'd say that kind of basic knowledge matters a hell of a lot more than playing mouse for these maps, and many people definitely picked up on it back then before modern controls were widely used. Between that and knowing the maps, I'd say a good player in 1993 could beat either game without touching a powerup if they were careful.

 

Also, the control limitations you're talking about are a bit overstated. Yes they matter a good deal on modern maps, but in Doom 1 and 2 the fights simply aren't nearly as fast paced or movement intensive. If you're playing a slaughter map with 200 revenants and have to whoosh around in fancy ways then sure, playing keyboard isn't viable. But there isn't anything like that in the first 2 games, and you rarely even get flanked on 2 sides where fast turning is needed. I played with a SNES controller (for the record, even worse than keyboard) for years and even got through Plutonia and most of Eviternity and BTSX with it on UV, let alone the original maps. These days I'm strictly a mouse player of course but I'd need to play fast monsters or nightmare to have it really make a difference in Doom 1/2.

[Maximum Matt]

That's one awkward jump to get to that secret in map06, tho