Is straferunning potentially sequence-breaking?

[Chao-G]

Made a new topic because the only other one matching my question was more than a year old, and was from a mapper's perspective. However, I want to know this from the perspective of a player. If I'm doing a casual playthrough of a level, would it be considered sequence-breaking if I am able to JUST reach certain ledges by strafe-running? Should I assume that levels are designed with this mechanic in mind? How often are levels made with this mechanic in mind? I don't care too much about playing maps "the right way", but I'm always curious about how a level designer envisioned the progression of a map, and like to play it in the "intended" way at least once. I'm sure it's not as much of a sequence break as being able to jump and stuff, but I'm still guessing it is an emergent mechanic and not something the original developers had in mind or tied to the level design.

 

Edit: I'm talking about regular strafe-running, not SR50.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Chao-G

[Lucius Wooding]

It depends. In 1994, it was probably not intended and casual players wouldn't necessarily use it. In 2023, only a complete amateur mapper wouldn't know it exists, it's a major movement mechanic. In many difficult WADs it's more or less required just for combat purposes alone.

 

Many popular WADs include secrets or even progression that requires it, as well as more obscure tricks like rocket and archvile jumps (though those are more rare). Not every mapper will require it, and IMO it's still good design to make required jumps easier for accessibility. But it's pretty well established at this point, it's a 30 year old game and many FPS since Doom have had the same feature.

[Doomy__Doom]

Potentially the answer is always "yes", because the sole prerequisite for something to be sequence breaking is "did the author think of it".

 

For example, Uprising - a 2021 release, a firmly "modern" set - has a straferun sequence break in map 03. It's quite trivial to notice - you're extremely likely to look at the relevant ledge as it's right next to a would-be mandatory switch that lowers BSK - but the map was built earlier than a lot of the set and the issue just went unnoticed.

 

Had this gap been a tiny bit smaller, it'd be a "walk forward" sequence break that could go unnoticed in the exact same fashion.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Doomy__Doom

[RataUnderground]

The vast majority of maps today are tested with straferunning in mind. It is so common that it is not even mentioned, and it would be quite rare for someone to publish a map that instructed not to use that technique, instead of simply opening it in the editor and correcting it before publishing it.

[baja blast rd.]

50 minutes ago, Doomy__Doom said:

Potentially the answer is always "yes", because the sole prerequisite for something to be sequence breaking is "did the author think of it".

 

For example, Uprising - a 2021 release, a firmly "modern" set - has a straferun sequence break in map 03. It's quite trivial to notice - you're extremely likely to look at the relevant ledge as it's right next to a would-be mandatory switch that lowers BSK - but the map was built earlier than a lot of the set and the issue just went unnoticed.

 

Had this gap been a tiny bit smaller, it'd be a "walk forward" sequence break that could go unnoticed in the exact same fashion.

 

Yeah, I'd also emphasize that there's a big difference between a sequence break because the author didn't know straferunning is even a thing, and something like this, which is an incidental sequence break that just so happens to need straferunning and stems more from a "logic oversight." That second type happens way more often than the first these days. I wouldn't even classify them as "straferun sequence breaks" -- you'll find them happening as much if you simply run forward and that misclassfies the oversight. (This sort of thing isn't always an oversight either -- with only a quarter of the map left, many mappers would Leave This In.) Another example is that if you can SR40 onto a narrow lip of terrain and then follow that lip quite some distance into an exit region you're not supposed to get to, the break is almost certainly that you can use the narrow lip that way. No mapper is noticing that you could hypothetically use that lip and not realizing that SR40 exists. 

 

Additionally it's always possible to fail to notice jumping angles that exist -- any map with any complexity has lots of those -- but again that isn't a "doesn't know SR is a thing" problem.

 

The overall answer to the question is that SR40 increases the number of sequence breaks you have access to by increasing your mobility. But it'd be silly to not SR40, or to be conservative about using it, just because of that. Especially because pretty much all mappers these days are cognizant that SR40 exists and the sequence break logic is usually separate from the movement mechanic. Someone wanting to cut down on potential sequence breaks as much as they can might consider always playing stroller (no running, no strafing) except where needed to avoid a softlock. But that obviously doesn't make sense to do. 

[baja blast rd.]

As an aside, If I had to guess, a big chunk of maps released, maybe even >50%, have useful sequence breaks of some kind, falling into the big cornucopia of possible skip techniques. Most are "only speedrunners would find this" tier though. 

 

Also the number is higher for wads people think of as "better." One of the best ways to never ever have sequence breaks in your level is to use a very flat, unambitious room-hallway-room layout. The stringier the better. As a mapper, being overly preoccupied with weeding out sequence breaks has diminishing returns past a certain point. 

[Capellan]

It's definitely potentially sequence-breaking.  It depends whether the map maker has considered it.  How bad a sequence break can also vary - I once completely broke a map by using a very obvious strafe run to skip a key pick-up, for instance.

[Xaser]

As a sort of aside: sometimes these sorts of "tricky jump" sequence breaks are left in on purpose. I actively look for them when mapping, not to take them out but rather to make sure the player won't get stuck after finding it. ;)

[Amarande]

In more complex levels, it can sometimes even be difficult to figure out if the jump you just pulled off even is a sequence break or not until later (usually when you suddenly finish the map having missed what seems like way too much of it. But then again how can you be so sure that the part you missed wasn't intended to be optional? Many notable maps especially in the later 00s and onward are of such complexity that even using a level editor to figure out how things work can be a difficult puzzle of itself).

 

In older levels, the wrong strafejump can even cause a softlock (oh what's that, you pulled off the epic skip and got back to the level with your purloined later key to find out ... you're stuck behind a door that was only meant to be opened from the other side somewhere? Or in some kind of pit or other verticality mechanism that was supposed to have been triggered earlier? ... Oops!).

 

Trying to avoid sequence breaks is something I tend to be pretty fastidious about when I make the occasional map, though. Given that I'm usually looking forward to watching people beat it after release, I'm probably too scarred from the past of seeing favorite maps be busted by unexpected sequence break discoveries that often literally mean Any% speed runs are no longer fun to watch (because said sequence break means you skip all the actually fun parts of the map, but competition essentially makes it mandatory that everyone follow the leader and do the skip) so the only recordings of interest become 100% runs or non-competitive longplay/first try videos ...

[GarrettChan]

I feel it's a bit weird that some mappers are so anxious about UV Speed runs to sequence break anything... If the mapper is so anxious about this problem, I think the ultimate solution is not to watch any UV Speed runs with such tricks. If you actively map against these and fanatically make your map airtight for anything, then I would say probably that's not even fun to do. I guess the ultimate achievement is more like "hah, I made a map that none of the speedrunners can do anything shit to it", but it seems that's not the concern by anybody who tries to run your map honestly... Also people like to exclude UV Max from the "speedrunning" category which is a weird mindset as well...

 

I know the OP only talks about SR40, but there are many situations where you accidentally AV jump to a "wrong" place and skip things. Then what now? Don't put any Arch-vile in your maps? That's not a good way to deal with these "problems" (they are not a problem to begin with IMO) to be frank.

[magicsofa]

19 hours ago, Chao-G said:

would it be considered sequence-breaking if I am able to JUST reach certain ledges by strafe-running?

 

No. It is only sequence breaking if you actually break something, meaning you skipped what was supposed to be mandatory, OR you locked some door/lift/whatever that would normally have been opened, etc.

 

It doesn't matter if it helps you exit faster, or prevents exit completely. The point is you've progressed through the map in an unintended way, hence the name "sequence break." Some sequence breaks make no real difference, i.e. jumping through a window to a room that you could already access anyway. Some will lock you out of the exit forever.

 

As a casual player, you should just not worry about it most of the time. I save periodically in big maps in case something locks me out, but if I get a free skip by accident then I just move on if I don't feel like going back. Most maps will have been tested for shortcuts, but some people will choose to leave them in the map for speedrunners to exploit, and some just don't get discovered right away. So you can't expect maps to be skip-proof. If you don't want to skip anything, don't go throwing yourself at a really difficult jump unless you are sure it's the only way to progress :P

[Amarande]

Part of it is because, I think, of the unique culture Doom has about speedrunning: 

 

a, essentially all glitches, sequence breaks, and exploits are accepted as long as they can be done in the vanilla game (or the intended source port). About the only thing universally considered a crime in Doom speedrunning is attempting to pass off a TAS run without disclosing the fact;

 

b, "category" runs aren't considered to matter unless they break the previous record. In fact in COMPET-N days I'm pretty sure a recording wasn't even accepted unless it set a new WR at the time or was the first submitted for that level and category.

 

The upshot is that if there's a huge enough sequence break, there's effectively an obligation for everyone else to use it everafter - because you can't beat the previous time (and thus even have a valid upload in some circles) without it, and there's really no "no glitches" category short of happy accident of, say, a map15 or map31's other exit not admitting the use of the break (due to each exit being treated as a separate level for competition). If you wanted to see somebody run pell mell through the enemies of the likes of, say, Plutonia map18 or MM2 map23 (one of my favorite maps of MM2)? You're out of luck now, as every serious UV Speed demo will now be a regulation archvile jump or 32-unit-glide five second instawin respectively. That's what I'm getting at, there.

 

UV Max/Fast runs usually aren't subject to this problem, because in most cases, sequence breaks don't really benefit you much there, if at all (if anything they are likely to be a setback, because you still have to go back for all those things you skipped ... which you either may not be able to do at all, or is likely to require you to sequence break back since level mechanics tend not to normally work very well in reverse).

 

As for people excluding Max: it's likely much the same as traditional game speedrunning, where Any% and 100% are also considered separate, and most mainstream speedruns are the former for, IMO, a few reasons:

 

a, game length making it impractical to do a 100% run (especially if you want single-segment): in many cases, the fact that a lot of stuff can be skipped (sequence break or not) is the only reason a recorded speedrun is even a reasonable endeavor in the first place;

 

b, this is aggravated by most games having a lack of convenient recording formats like we're spoiled on here in Doom (imagine how different a world it would be if id hadn't decided to do things like ingame demos or the AVG deathmatch event and thus didn't need the .lmp feature?) so you are compelled to do video recording (which wasn't really all that easy until fairly recently gaming history speaking, and even nowadays is still not all there e.g. some modern titles having DRM embargoed content that the game actively prevents you from recording/streaming);

 

c, lots of games having enough random factors that even deciding just what qualifies as "100%" can be a problem in and of itself.

 

Thus the robust division into categories we have here is pretty unique to Doom (even Heretic didn't really get it for the most part, largely IIRC because of the Heretic demo code having a certain jankiness that Doom's didn't), so I can figure a lot of people only think about any% when it comes to "speedrunning."