Am I the only one that uses doom builder 2 for doom mapping?

[Herr Dethnout]

5 hours ago, Azafran said:

 

Any reasons to use Doom Builder X instead of UDB?

Not having a PC with Open GL 3...

 

 

Like me :>

[Shakariki Heisenberg]

jesus christ atleast use DBX

[SilentD00mer]

I used it for some time, but I use Eureka now (yeah, probably not many people use it Ig, but I like it).

[LOD42]

14 minutes ago, SilentD00mer said:

I used it for some time, but I use Eureka now (yeah, probably not many people use it Ig, but I like it).

It's actually the opposite for me. I used Eureka for my first few years at mapping when I was just starting out, but then I switched to the DB line of editors after a long hiatus from Doom mapping.
During said hiatus, I largely forgot how to use Eureka and thought I should use this as an oppurtunity to switch to DB, since it seemed that other people were using it too.
I eventually stumbled across the various DB forks and started trying them out to replace DB, since it wasn't getting updates anymore. I tried DBX at first, then after I sorted out some OpenGL issues I tried out GZDB, and eventually settled on UDB after GZDB got discontinued.

Edited June 27, 2023 by LOD42

[eanasir]

I use Doom Builder 2.

 

EDIT: I have downloaded Doom Builder X, and wow, there's a bunch more options, and 3D mode is SO SMOOTH!

Edited June 27, 2023 by gamingcooler
upgrade stuff

[JBerg]

3 hours ago, s4f3s3x said:

 

I came here to say exactly this.

But we MacOs users don't really have a choice anyway

 

There's also https://eureka-editor.sourceforge.net/

 

and

 

https://twilightedge.com/mac/redoomed/index.html

The later being a port of the original id software editor. Not sure how easy it is to use though.

[boris]

7 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Some don't care for mapping for GZDoom and so all those extra features are bloat.

 

UDB has plenty of features that improve the vanilla mapping experience. Here are some:

 

• it's possible to filter (search) for linedef actions and sector types in the editing dialogs
• it's possible to filter (search) for thing types in the edit thing dialog
• it's possible to enter a thing's position in the edit thing dialog
• synchronized thing selection in sectors mode. Selecting a sector in sectors mode can optionally select all things in the sector (for example making dragging sectors with its things easier)
• paint select in both classic modes and visual modes (while holding the assigned button anything the mouse curor touches is selected)
• mass selection options in visual mode. Holding Shift while clicking will select all adjacant sidedefs, floors, or ceilings with the same texture. Holding Ctrl while clicking will select all adjacant sidedefs, floors, or ceilings with the same texture and sector height
• when pasting map element properties you can optionally paste only certain properties instead of all
• many input boxes allow more complex expressions like `+++` for incrementally changing values of the selected map elements
• the edit sector dialog has a "height offset" input box to increase/decrease both the floor and ceiling height
• event line between linedefs and tagged sectors to make it easier to see how things are triggered. Optionally with showing the corresponding action on the event line
• more customizable texture browser. It's possible to set a black background to make the texture colors look more neutral. When a used texture is highlighted pressing the tab key will jump to the texture's position in the full texture list
• more faithful vanilla support, like (better) visual representation of self referencing sectors in visual mode, or correct handling of patch offset quirks in textures
• it's possible to filter (search) for actions in the program's preferences dialog
• selections can be synchronized between classic modes and visual mode, i.e. selecting a sector in sectors mode will have a surface selected when entering visual mode (and vice versa)
• options for merging dragged geometry (i.e. dragging geometry will merge geometry correctly)
• each game configuration can have multiple engines for testing, which can also be selected from the test toolbar button
• more drawing modes: draw curve mode, draw rectangle mode, draw ellipse mode, draw grid mode
• many more error checks in map analysis mode
• function to export sector floors or ceilings as an image (i.e. it can be used to create new textures from sectors; best be used in conjunction with GZDoom UDMF maps)
• improved search and replace mode with more options and functionality
• "select similar" function for map elements that selects other map elements with selectable same properties
• tag explorer docker that shows all tagged sectors and linedef actions in the map
• function to show all used tags in the map
• function to show the number of all thing types in the map
• supports aspect ratio correction (pixels stretched vertically by 20%)
• supports loading DeHackEd patches to correctly show changes made to things through the patch

 

3 hours ago, indigotyrian said:

UDB, which is incredibly finicky and crash-prone

 

That's just FUD.

 

3 hours ago, indigotyrian said:

UDB is Windows-only.

 

There are even instruction on how to compile UDB for Linux on the Github page.

[Bauul]

3 hours ago, indigotyrian said:

UDB, which is incredibly finicky and crash-prone

 

Firstly, UDB isn't crash prone, the vast majority of instabilities from the GZDB days have been fixed.

 

Secondly, that's the nice thing about an actively developed tool: if you have a crash, you can post the error log and the devs will fix it.  That way, rather than just moaning about it on a forum, you help make the tool better for everyone.

[Matthias]

I used to use DB2 for TOOO LONG because first versions of Gzdoom Builder were soo unstable and unreliable and buggy. I didn't like it at all...

 

But I tried again many years later with Ultimate Doom Builder and it's sooo great... You can make some things super fast... you can copy-past textures so quickly in 3D and some hotkeys and combinations can make many annoying and tedious things much faster... Today I couldn't imagine using anything else :D

Edited June 27, 2023 by Matthias (LiquidDoom)

[indigotyrian]

9 hours ago, Azafran said:

I really don't see how SLADE is easier to use than UDB.

It never crashed on me a single time, of course this is anecdotal evidence.

 

Probably there is something I'm missing since other people experiences with these editors are that different than mine.

 

I find UDB's UI/UX to be annoying and obnoxious, while SLADE's is easy to handle, does everything I need, and doesn't get in my way or take up a huge portion of my screen with a big-ass slice of one quarter of my screen helpfully reminding me that I'm in "VERTICES MODE."

 

6 hours ago, boris said:

There are even instruction on how to compile UDB for Linux on the Github page.

 

In other words, it's Windows-only unless you are one of the few people who are familiar with compiling code yourself. "You have to compile it yourself" disqualifies it. Not everybody has dev utilities on their box and not everybody is comfortable compiling code.

 

6 hours ago, Bauul said:

Firstly, UDB isn't crash prone, the vast majority of instabilities from the GZDB days have been fixed.

 

Secondly, that's the nice thing about an actively developed tool: if you have a crash, you can post the error log and the devs will fix it.  That way, rather than just moaning about it on a forum, you help make the tool better for everyone.

 

Every time I've used UDB it's shit the bed for me somehow. It's been long enough ago that I don't recall the specific instances or errors but suffice to say that I just do what I need to do in SLADE and it fucking works. I don't have the time or wherewithal to track down where I'm supposed to post error logs so developers can fix whatever issue I run into and I'm certainly not interested in reproducing issues, downloading new versions of software to see if bugs are fixed, etc. Either something works for me or it doesn't. UDB doesn't work for me (and if it does for you, that's fantastic!), SLADE does. End of story.

 

Every damn time whenever I bring up the issues I have with UDB and why I prefer SLADE (again, to reiterate: a purely personal preference!) people get incredibly fucking defensive, I just don't get it. It's all over this thread! Heaven forfend someone prefers to use an old map editor that they're comfortable with for a 30 year old video game. You really need to have some kind of weird-ass superiority with your choice of Doom map editor I suppose.

Edited June 27, 2023 by indigotyrian

[AD_79]

7 minutes ago, indigotyrian said:

doesn't get in my way or take up a huge portion of my screen with a big-ass slice of one quarter of my screen helpfully reminding me that I'm in "VERTICES MODE."

 

This won't fix the rest of your issues, but there's a little arrow in the bottom right of the screen that will minimize that bar. It definitely gets in the way otherwise, and I only pull it back up periodically to check map stats.

[Redneckerz]

1 hour ago, indigotyrian said:

Every time I've used UDB it's shit the bed for me somehow. It's been long enough ago that I don't recall the specific instances or errors

Highlighting because this is why people call your opinion FUD and criticizing it. You are basing your opinion on outdated information.

 

Quote

Every damn time whenever I bring up the issues I have with UDB and why I prefer SLADE (again, to reiterate: a purely personal preference!) people get incredibly fucking defensive, I just don't get it.

 

It's all over this thread! Heaven forfend someone prefers to use an old map editor that they're comfortable with for a 30 year old video game. You really need to have some kind of weird-ass superiority with your choice of Doom map editor I suppose.

Rather ironic that you blanket-call people out for having a weird-ass superiority over a Doom map editor when your opinion on UDB is sverely out of date.

 

People usually get defensive when other people such as yourself say things that are simply not true. If you can't grasp this concept, then maybe it needs reiteration.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Redneckerz

[Bauul]

1 hour ago, indigotyrian said:

Every damn time whenever I bring up the issues I have with UDB and why I prefer SLADE (again, to reiterate: a purely personal preference!) people get incredibly fucking defensive, I just don't get it.

 

There's a difference between saying "I prefer SLADE" (sure, by all means, everyone has their preferences, we do this for fun after all), and "UDB is incredibly finickity and crash prone".  The latter isn't a "purely personal preference", you're positioning it as an objective truth when it's both not objective, and not true. 

 

There's a prevailing lack of understanding for what UDB is about (e.g. "it's only for GZDoom", "it doesn't benefit vanilla mappers", "it's too complicated", "it crashes a lot" etc.) that's worthwhile addressing because a) someone might benefit from the extra features offered by UDB and b) truth is better than not-truth.  

Edited June 27, 2023 by Bauul

[indigotyrian]

13 minutes ago, Bauul said:

 

There's a difference between saying "I prefer SLADE" (sure, by all means, everyone has their preferences, we do this for fun after all), and "UDB is incredibly finickity and crash prone".  The latter isn't a "purely personal preference", you're positioning it as an objective truth. 

 

There's a prevailing lack of understanding for what UDB is about (e.g. "it's only for GZDoom", "it doesn't benefit vanilla mappers", "it's too complicated") etc. that's worthwhile addressing because a) someone might benefit from the extra features offered by UDB and b) truth is better than not-truth.  

 

I'm going off of my own experiences with UDB as recent as a year, maybe eight months ago, definitely not "outdated" even if its not as recent as a week ago. As far as I see it it's a buggy piece of shit that doesn't do what I need to do, and offers no compelling features that SLADE doesn't. My own experiences are the only thing I (or really, anybody) can possibly offer when it comes to this kind of discussion. Every time somebody jumps down my throat about this shit just further poisons my own feelings about the damn tool.

 

Similarly I could say that "there's no reason to ever use anything except UDB," the claim that I was responding to, is FUD (i.e. a "purely personal preference" positioned as an objective truth) in and of itself since I can think of some pretty compelling reasons to use SLADE over it:

 

- Cross-platform support for non-Windows users (No, WINE doesn't count. No, having to compile the source to make your own binary doesn't count.)

- Simpler and easier-to-use user interface

- UX that isn't a fucking nightmare

- non-map changes in the PWAD(s) are instantly reflected in the map editor

- Having both map editing and WAD editing in a single editor massively reduces overhead and clutter (see "simpler and easier-to-use")

 

You don't see me asserting that the guy who made this claim is a dangerous FUDster who is poisoning minds though because I'm not so invested in the ostensible superiority of a map editor for a 30 year old game that I have to shout down people who say that they don't like my preferred editor.

Edited June 27, 2023 by indigotyrian

[Noiser]

I used DB2 for a long time, it's a really good editor. That said, DBX is my favorite right now, as it feels like a natural evolution imo. UDB is also great for UDMF maps I guess, but I'm not a big fan of the layout and system requirements.

[FecalMystAche]

Use what works best for you. Everyone here is just regurgitating their personal opinions on what editor they prefer. It does not matter what editor you use if you can effectively make functioning maps with it.

Edited June 27, 2023 by FecalMystAche

[indigotyrian]

7 minutes ago, FecalMystAche said:

Use what works best for you. Everyone here is just regurgitating their personal opinions on what editor they prefer. It does not matter what editor you use if you can effectively make functioning maps with it.

 

Absolutely this. George R. R. Martin writes his novels (when he gets around to it hyuk hyuk) on an ancient IBM PC AT running WordStar 4.0. He's also the single most recognized genre fiction author currently drawing breath.

 

Use Doom Builder 2! Use Doom Builder 1.68! Use Eureka! Use DEU on a 486! It doesn't matter what tool you use, what matters is what you sculpt with it.

Edited June 27, 2023 by indigotyrian

[Bauul]

16 minutes ago, indigotyrian said:

My own experiences are the only thing I (or really, anybody) can possibly offer when it comes to this kind of discussion.

 

Well, not exclusively.  What program is right for someone is a combination of how it "feels" to use (which is down to personal experience) and what features it offers (which is pretty objective - e.g. Boris' post, or many of the points you raise about SLADE).  I was addressing corrections on the latter rather than the former.

 

But I do entirely agree with you that it's not worth getting worked up over.  As long as someone has all the information they want to make as much of an informed decision as they want, then whatever they decide is up to them.  

Edited June 27, 2023 by Bauul

[INfront95]

I use DB2 on a old computer at  work's lunch..... Must say every time i have to do curve my mind drift to UDB thinking: i can do it easier and much more presice there. On the other hand, eh, dunno. Feels like normal doom editor without advanced functions. Saw people talking about DBX but never touched it. Is it good? What are the differences and reasons to try it? no idea.

Edited June 27, 2023 by INfront95

[Ash4ash]

2 hours ago, FecalMystAche said:

Use what works best for you. Everyone here is just regurgitating their personal opinions on what editor they prefer. It does not matter what editor you use if you can effectively make functioning maps with it.

thanks! 

I don't get why people argue about this

people say "DB2 is to old, you shouldn't use that"

So? 

DOOM is a 30 year old game

(And the newer versions of the DBs are to complex for me and when I see screenshots i get sensory overload)

Edited June 28, 2023 by Ash4ash

[DrinkyBird]

Level editors are for nerds, I make maps by writing UDMF directly into Notepad while blindfolded and with local anaesthetic injected into my hands.

Edited June 28, 2023 by DrinkyBird

[Project H]

I have doom builder 2 installed

[Telemassacre]

sometimes i feel this way with slade

[Herr Dethnout]

5 hours ago, indigotyrian said:

Every damn time whenever I bring up the issues I have with UDB and why I prefer SLADE (again, to reiterate: a purely personal preference!) people get incredibly fucking defensive, I just don't get it.

Is really funny when somebody say something negative about UDB or GZDoom, the developers appear and act so defensive about that. Like if they have a spidersense for that.

 

Nothing wrong with that, I can understand the feeling, but is still funny for me. Hehe

Edited June 28, 2023 by Herr Dethnout

[Dark Pulse]

3 hours ago, indigotyrian said:

 

Absolutely this. George R. R. Martin writes his novels (when he gets around to it hyuk hyuk) on an ancient IBM PC AT running WordStar 4.0. He's also the single most recognized genre fiction author currently drawing breath.

 

Use Doom Builder 2! Use Doom Builder 1.68! Use Eureka! Use DEU on a 486! It doesn't matter what tool you use, what matters is what you sculpt with it.

I mean, this argument is slightly disingenuous, when Mr. Martin probably does not have to worry about very many bugs on WordStar 4.0, but there are some definite bugs in DB2 that forks of it fix. The 3D view one in particular is especially bad in my book.

 

Other than that, I agree, though that's also why I say DB2 users should move to at least DBX, since its whole point is to basically be a bugfixed DB2 and keeping things close to that as possible while modernizing a bit, unlike UDB which is stretching for different stuff and doesn't mind putting in much larger changes.

[indigotyrian]

14 minutes ago, Dark Pulse said:

I mean, this argument is slightly disingenuous, when Mr. Martin probably does not have to worry about very many bugs on WordStar 4.0, but there are some definite bugs in DB2 that forks of it fix. The 3D view one in particular is especially bad in my book.

 

Other than that, I agree, though that's also why I say DB2 users should move to at least DBX, since its whole point is to basically be a bugfixed DB2 and keeping things close to that as possible while modernizing a bit, unlike UDB which is stretching for different stuff and doesn't mind putting in much larger changes.

 

WordStar 4.0 was released in 1986 and its file formats are utterly incompatible with modern word processors. It lacks features we consider so basic they're baked into web browser input fields, like spellcheck. I think it's a perfectly comparable scenario. If someone wants to use a weird jank version of a map editor, or a word processor, or whatever other software because it's what they're comfy with, why does it matter to you?

[Dark Pulse]

11 minutes ago, indigotyrian said:

WordStar 4.0 was released in 1986 and its file formats are utterly incompatible with modern word processors. It lacks features we consider so basic they're baked into web browser input fields, like spellcheck. I think it's a perfectly comparable scenario. If someone wants to use a weird jank version of a map editor, or a word processor, or whatever other software because it's what they're comfy with, why does it matter to you?

There's a difference between "it lacks features" and "it's got actual bugs."

 

If he's fine working without those features, great. Those features are useful, but not essential - what's essential is that it saves what he's typed. I think he'd be a lot less fine with it if the program began garbling his text files when he saved them after he'd been typing on them for too long. That's the difference and distinction I'm making here - and let's be blunt, the 3D view is one of those things that propelled Doom Builder to the height it reached. A lot of mappers spend a lot of time making their level in that mode rather than drawing the lines, and the only other way to fix the bug is to reboot your system. Perhaps not a problem if you reboot it daily or shut it down nightly, but it absolutely will hit you if you put your PC to sleep and don't technically reboot it for days/weeks.

 

If someone wants to use that because they're used to it and comfortable with it and are well aware of the bugs it might have, then fine, but this is also a case where the reasons to stick with DB2 over what is essentially a bugfixed release of DB2 is, in my opinion, rather silly. Obviously nobody's going to stop them from using DB2, but to me, it's basically like if someone showed up to your house with a new hard drive that's twice the capacity and you go "Nah, I'm good, I don't need that much space."

Edited June 28, 2023 by Dark Pulse

[SMG_Man]

9 minutes ago, indigotyrian said:

If someone wants to use a weird jank version of...software because it's what they're comfy with, why does it matter to you?

 

I know it's not one of the editors at hand, but if someone is using XWE in the present day, I have a moral obligation to stop them before they inadvertently fuck up their WAD through no fault of their own.

 

This used to be a playable level!

[Dark Pulse]

Just now, SMG_Man said:

I know it's not one of the editors at hand, but if someone is using XWE in the present day, I have a moral obligation to stop them before they inadvertently fuck up their WAD through no fault of their own.

 

This used to be a playable level!

Ahh, XWE. I've been there, brother.

 

Brofist.

[eanasir]

I'm gonna try Ultimate Doom Builder and see how it is.

Edited June 28, 2023 by gamingcooler
not relevant content, idk