Is the idea of a "map compailation mod", with giving credit, a prolem?

[doomlayman]

I don't know what is common and accepted between doom modders and I never modded Doom myself but I have a question about Doom modding culuture.

 

I would define a "map compailation mod" as a mod comprised of two or more maps taken from at least one other map mod and nothing more (no sprites are taken).

So for example, such as mod could have this or similar map structure:

 

• map 1: map 12 from mod X
• map 2: map 14 from mod X
• map 3: map 31 from mod Y
• map 4: map 5 from mod Z
• map 5: map 1 from mod Z
• map 6: map 8 from mod Y

 

Is there any principal problem in creating such a mod and should the problem become smaller or even vanish if credit is given at least in both README file and the main menu?

 

Must the modder seek permission from the original author of every map mod to do it?

 

Perosnally for me it's like copying an article in Wikipedia with giving proper credit to the original author at least in the talk page of the article. The norm in the Doom community might be very different, of course. Are Doom mods "free software" like Wikipedia articles are?

[kwc]

I should make a compilation thread for every thread you start ;)
 

If the copyright info for the wad (presuming you’re getting them from idgames or otherwise a .txt is shared) allows for reuse/use as a base, then I think you’re covered for what is permissible. This topic has come up before and the general community consensus, from my perspective, is that additionally you should be seeking permission from the authors regardless.

 

Proper credit is expected and really isn’t something that should be ignored, but even if people have marked their work as CC4 or whatever permissive license/readme/etc, you’re much better off contacting and confirming with the author before moving forward with appropriating their work. If you can’t contact them, maybe you can fall back on the license or whatever but personally I’d recommend just moving on.

Edited June 27, 2023 by kwc

[Murdoch]

3 hours ago, doomlayman said:

I don't know what is common and accepted between doom modders and I never modded Doom myself but I have a question about Doom modding culuture.

 

I do not believe I have seen such a compilation since the 90s and even then they were few and far between. It is not common, and I would say that attempting to do so won't end well for you. Either you will be denied permission outright in most cases, or some people will assume you didn't.

 

3 hours ago, doomlayman said:

Is there any principal problem in creating such a mod

 

Yes, because you are low-effort reusing things you didn't create.

 

3 hours ago, doomlayman said:

become smaller or even vanish if credit is given at least in both README file and the main menu?

 

Without asking for express permission, the community will not be impressed and the map authors even less so.

 

3 hours ago, doomlayman said:

Must the modder seek permission from the original author of every map mod to do it?

 

 

I am honestly kind of horrified you have to ask this question. Would you be happy about someone reuploading something you spent dozens of hours upon without your permission?

3 hours ago, doomlayman said:

Perosnally for me it's like copying an article in Wikipedia with giving proper credit to the original author at least in the talk page of the article. The norm in the Doom community might be very different, of course.

 

It is nothing of the sort. Wikipedia represents a compilation of information from mostly pre-existing sources. A lot of people put a lot of effort into it and do deserve credit, but it's done with the fundamental understanding that you are a creating a public domain resources to be used as people see fit.

 

A Doom map is the author's own unique creation which you are releasing under your name, and only briefly mentioning where it came from in a such a way some people might completely miss it.

 

3 hours ago, doomlayman said:

Are Doom mods "free software" like Wikipedia articles are?

 

That is, as I just said, an apples and oranges comparison.

 

In summary, this is a terrible idea. Don't do it. If you want to arrange a bunch of maps as a megawad for your own purposes, sure. But absolutely do not release it.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Murdoch

[philcul]

I mean... while kwc and Murdoch are correct that it's probably not a good idea to create such a compilation and upload it (especially if you wouldn't ask the original creators) because it would be a low effort creation that uses other people's work in unintended ways and so on... but in your original post you're not talking about uploading it. So if this would be something that you would just make for you and your personal use to form the game to your liking (like the things you're asking in your other threads) and don't redistribute it then I don't see any problem in it.

[Shepardus]

If it's just for yourself and not to be released publicly, then do whatever, nobody's going to know or care. If you are going to release it, my first question would be whether there's any point in doing so. Most of the time I would say it's no better than just downloading and playing the individual WADs, but there are cases where the compilations have real value added to them, like Compendium, which is a ZDoom compilation of 50+ WADs. That one has the value of a nice, easy-to-use interface built around it, and it also works well with MOShuffle which can randomize the map order and create a mix of the compiled WADs.

 

You shouldn't take stuff that you don't have permission to use. If you haven't been explicitly granted permission, you don't have permission. The text files that come with WADs usually tell you their terms. If it's some Creative Commons license you can probably use it, but you should read the license and understand what you can/cannot do with it. If you're unsure, it doesn't hurt to ask the creator for permission.

 

Wikipedia and free software also have their licenses that you're supposed to respect if you use them, so in that way it is like copying a Wikipedia article, but that's not saying that you can do whatever you want with them.

[Murdoch]

39 minutes ago, AdNauseam said:

but in your original post you're not talking about uploading it.

 

Actually he does. He talks about if he should give credit. If he was not considering uploading this wouldn't be a question he needed to ask.

[ebrl]

Murdoch already went into detail explaining how terrible an idea this is, but if the quality of his warning isn't enough to deter you from ever even thinking about it again, let me pile on some quantity by being another voice simply telling you that this is one of the worst "ideas" I've ever seen.

[philcul]

1 hour ago, Murdoch said:

 

Actually he does. He talks about if he should give credit. If he was not considering uploading this wouldn't be a question he needed to ask.

 

Yeah, you're right, I misread that. 

[Individualised]

I think people are being a bit harsh on you but yes in general this wouldn't be received too well unless you did something significantly transformative and interesting. However for your own personal use stuff like this is totally fine and even encouraged.

 

As a related side note; something I've personally been wondering about is if doing PSX Doom conversions of other people's levels is something that would be okay. I've wanted to do a PSX conversion of Doom Zero and for other megawads for a while but I wouldn't want to release it without knowing that doing something like that would be okay. For Doom Zero I can easily contact the creator but for other, older megawads; not so much.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Individualised

[DRON12261]

11 hours ago, doomlayman said:

I don't know what is common and accepted between doom modders and I never modded Doom myself but I have a question about Doom modding culuture.

 

I would define a "map compailation mod" as a mod comprised of two or more maps taken from at least one other map mod and nothing more (no sprites are taken).

So for example, such as mod could have this or similar map structure:

 

• map 1: map 12 from mod X
• map 2: map 14 from mod X
• map 3: map 31 from mod Y
• map 4: map 5 from mod Z
• map 5: map 1 from mod Z
• map 6: map 8 from mod Y

 

Is there any principal problem in creating such a mod and should the problem become smaller or even vanish if credit is given at least in both README file and the main menu?

 

Must the modder seek permission from the original author of every map mod to do it?

 

Perosnally for me it's like copying an article in Wikipedia with giving proper credit to the original author at least in the talk page of the article. The norm in the Doom community might be very different, of course. Are Doom mods "free software" like Wikipedia articles are?

First of all, some of the answers here were a bit frivolous and based more on subjective preferences I suppose.
 

You need to look at the license. It is almost always supplied at the very end of the README file if the wad was uploaded to idgames. Often this may be enough. If you take the same gameplay mods, forks are often standard practice. But be sure to specify the original authorship and preferably leave all references to the original author's work, as well as to indicate whether it was somehow changed. If it is possible to contact the author, this move will not be superfluous.
 

Still separately we can consider "abandon wads", wads that have already been lost in time and with the authors of which are simply not to contact, if there is even known authorship.
 

Just as an example porting something on another platform is also good practice. In my case I found a person who is now doing a PSX port of my level. Of course he contacted me to coordinate some things, but I wouldn't have prevented him in any way if he hadn't tried to do it. I specified the appropriate license for it.
 

Here is an example from my README, which is essentially a pre-made text that you can very often find in many other wads. This description is usually sufficient. If the author intentionally does not want his work to be reused in any way, he should have indicated this:
 

Spoiler

* Copyright / Permissions *
 

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons
Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License. To view a
copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/

You are free to copy and redistribute the material in any medium or format;
and remix, transform, and build upon the material. If you do so, you must
give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if
changes were made. You may do so in any reasonable manner, but not in any way
that suggests the licensor endorses you or your use. You may not use the
material for commercial purposes. If you remix, transform, or build upon the
material, you must distribute your contributions under the same license as
the original.

UPD: Well, if the license of the original wad requires it, you will have to distribute your material based on license may be described in the original wad.

Edited June 28, 2023 by DRON12261

[houston]

I think there's no issue personally as long as each WAD's respective idgames/readme file is included. There's a bit of an implication in those "where to grab" sections that you might not have gotten them from idgames directly, and why should it be required that you do? idgames was intended to be cloned and decentralised in the first place.

[Doomy__Doom]

16 hours ago, doomlayman said:

Are Doom mods "free software" like Wikipedia articles are?

Wikipedia articles are not "free", they are licensed. Relevant text can be found it at the footer of the article page, such as:

Quote

Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 4.0; additional terms may apply.

CC-BY-SA is a 8 section long license which gives you certain rights, which happen to include remixing and transforming, provided you follow some terms, which happen to include attribution ("proper credit").

 

Irrespective of the (de)merits of the idea from pure game perspective, learning about copyright should come first before considering any project using other people's work.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Doomy__Doom

[eanasir]

Like basically everyone here has said, making WADs can take weeks to months to years, and people take a lot of time on their doom maps, so it is very much frowned upon here to do that.

[Murdoch]

10 hours ago, houston said:

idgames was intended to be cloned and decentralised in the first place.

 

That is not the same thing. He's taking other people's work and redistributing it in a different form. You can do it, but unless you get very explicit permission and make it really, really clear you got explicit permission, it's not going to end well in terms of reception.

[Xaser]

I'm going to be the one fellow who goes against the grain here and says: maybe. The idea of yoinking random maps from well-known megawads is rather "meh", but a sort of "mixtape megawad" assembled from lesser-known single-map wads, arranged tastefully in some way (by theme, difficulty, etc.) could work, provided you know what you're doing and it doesn't just feel like a series of stylistically inconsistent one-offs. And provided you have permission, of course. :P

 

Another place this idea totally works is assembling a megawad out of a series of single-map releases by a single author. It's especially useful for multiplayer's sake -- there's a particular Michael Krause map compilation that I've seen hosted on various MP co-op servers, and it works great for continuous play.

 

Hell, even Master Levels works infinitely better as a compiled megawad IMO than any sort of single-map selection deal -- WadSmoosh to the rescue there. ;)

 

tl;dr: It's totally possible to make something interesting here, but it certainly takes more planning and skill than just finding some stuff and slapping it together.

[indigotyrian]

3 minutes ago, Xaser said:

...a sort of "mixtape megawad" assembled from lesser-known single-map wads, arranged tastefully in some way (by theme, difficulty, etc.) could work, provided you know what you're doing and it doesn't just feel like a series of stylistically inconsistent one-offs. And provided you have permission, of course. :P

 

Honestly this sounds pretty cool! Now That's What I Call Doom. It'd be a great way for newer/lesser known mappers to get their name out and be seen and also maybe encourage more people to make and share things.

Edited June 28, 2023 by indigotyrian

[RichardDS90]

1 hour ago, Xaser said:

...But a sort of "mixtape megawad" assembled from lesser-known single-map wads, arranged tastefully in some way (by theme, difficulty, etc.) could work, provided you know what you're doing and it doesn't just feel like a series of stylistically inconsistent one-offs. And provided you have permission, of course. :P

Funny I actually made a thread about something like this recently too, though mine was intended to stay unreleased, my one was actually gonna go down the Scythe/Valiant/Eviternity route with each theme being an episode, nothing like an episode consisting of VRACK2, 3, DVII MAP19 and CC4 MAP20 and 21.

 

Only problem is the large number of textures one would have to keep track of, why I didn't go ahead with it.

 

 

On the subject of the topic, basically make sure permission is given obviously in the text file, but of course, it's far better to ask directly, just to be sure.

[doomlayman]

I personally believe that no copyrights should be put on algorithms (math excercise, food recipe, music notes, program source code, etc) because such copyrights, in my personal understandning, inhbiit the scientific and technological advancement of humanity.

From that reason I put "Unlicense" license on any source code I create.

The "Unlicense" license doesn't require credit, but GNU license does require credit. That's fine with me.

 

I know very well that some people disagree with me and they may use other free software licenses which are more rigor or even non free software licneses (some "closed source" license).

I respect everybody and like giving credit.

Without or with giving credit, Doom mods are not algorithms, but works of art. Where is the thin line between an algorithm and a work of are? I wish I knew...

But yes, it seems to me that everyone separate these two categories and that when it comes to works of art people are much more against copying and/or modifying them.

I might have been wrong anywhere here.

 

From reading the answers I understand that it broadly depends on the license but still, in general, asking permission is needed or at least helpful to prevent possible allegations of "theft" or anything like it, and that such permission should be given very explicitly and this should be noted very explicitly both in REDME and game.

I do wonder what about very old map mods, which are unlicensed and/or unathoured or that their author/s might have deceased.

Edited June 30, 2023 by doomlayman

[doomlayman]

11 hours ago, Doomy__Doom said:

Wikipedia articles are not "free", they are licensed. Relevant text can be found it at the footer of the article page, such as:

CC-BY-SA is a 8 section long license which gives you certain rights, which happen to include remixing and transforming, provided you follow some terms, which happen to include attribution ("proper credit").

 

Irrespective of the (de)merits of the idea from pure game perspective, learning about copyright should come first before considering any project using other people's work.

 

They are licensed in a very free way, you can eopy them and/or modify them anywhere else if you just give credit.

 

Of course, with game mods, being works of art, the case is very different.

[prfunky]

Fun subject!

Not a big topic around these parts (DoomWorld) but multi-player, especially deathmatch

wads are thorny example of the intricacies of combining the work of others. If one wishes

to run a server with levels lifted from multiple wad files, there are several avenues which

might be taken. For my own purpose of compiling such a multi-sourced wad, I look for

existing wads which have LIBERAL permissions for doing so. Simply loading up all the

required wads on the server in question won't work due to naming collisions of the maps

themselves. What I mean by this is generally, each wad file has maps beginning with

MAP01 to MAPxx, where xx is the last map of that wad file. If one is to load up another

wad after the first (or 2nd and so on), the MAPxx entries get replaced by the last loaded

wad. Therefore, I usually avoid using maps from wad files with restrictive permissions.

A compilation map makes sense in this particular situation but it's not an easy thing to

put together. Not only must one make sure that the map names are arranged in a way

to avoid duplication but any resources (textures/flats/etc.) must be compiled into the

work.

 

As an example of experimenting with a map from a wad file with restrictive permissions,

I'm currently running a server where I load up another wad of my own making without

any maps whatsoever. My file replaces some textures and thing elements in the game

mainly because I wanted to test some stuff and secondly, really have appreciated this

particular map for a very long time. If you have any interest in following along with my

example, it's on a currently running Zandronum server called

[EB]Moonhenge Skunked (with monsters) found in Doomseeker for Zandronum.

Obviously, this thread topic will outlive that particular server's existance so act quickly.

Doing this server the way I have allows me to leave the original wad file intact with no

changes whatsoever to it and the player is downloading that file as it was compiled

back in 2010.

 

For my own work, I'm a total junkie for giving credit where credit is due no matter how

absolutely liberal the terms are of the original work. When I do a new release, I spend

hours writing the credits into the accompanying txt file. This includes credits for textures

and flats used, sprites used, DECORATE code used, music used and even wav sound

samples. By that same token, I'm quite liberal in giving permissions for reuse of my own

maps and resources in whatever one wishes to use them in as long as I'm credited in

the accompanying txt file for the resulting derivative work. The only exception I generally

write into my permission prohibitions is any kind of branding I've done as a signature

added to my work. Here's what that would look like in one of my included txt files:

===========================================================================
* Copyright / Permissions * (c)2021 Chap Software, All rights reserved.
===========================================================================

Authors MAY use my custom textures, flats and sprites but please don't use
the logo textures for "Robotron INDUSTRIES", such as muralwal, muraldor and
muraldr2. I would appreciate it very much if I can reserve those as a
sortof "artist signature" to only accompany work which I produce. Thank you
so much for your cooperation and understanding in this regard.

Also, authors MAY include ANY of the game maps in custom megawad
compilation, if deemed worthy of doing so. Please don't use my TITLEMAP or
CREDIMAP maps, however. Same thing as the logo textures in the preceding
paragraph; they're specific to MY work in a signature kindof way. Please
list me in credits of your compilation for maps used. Feel free to repaint
walls, floors and ceilings with your own textures and flats to your liking
as well...     if you're GOOD at it!
===========================================================================

Here are a few other examples of permission sections of other wad files below.

===========================================================================
Here's the permissions from Alien Vendetta. You'll notice in it that permissions

were obtained from credited authors for resources used in it. Also, the bit NOT

in prohibition of using the levels as a base for additional levels and permission

is granted for redistribution of the wad file with NO MODIFICATIONS WHATSOEVER.:

 

[7] LEGAL STUFF
---------------

[7.1 Textures]

See section 1.4 for specifics on the texture resources which AV borrows from.
Authors may not use the AV specific graphics such as statbar/titlepic/
interpic/bossback and other menu graphics. Do whatever you want with the
textures and flats listed in section 1.5 tho, as long as the respective
authors are credited.

[7.2 Levels]

Authors may NOT use these levels as a base to build additional levels.
You may distribute this WAD, provided you include this file, with no
modifications. You may distribute this file in any electronic format (BBS,
Diskette, CD, etc) as long as you include this textfile intact.

===========================================================================
 

Here's a txt from another wad which gives permission for using a base to build additional

levels. Generally, you'd want to duplicate this text in your released work's txt file.

===========================================================================
* Copyright / Permissions *

Authors MAY use this level as a base to build additional levels.  

You MAY distribute this WAD, provided you include this file, with no
modifications. You may distribute this file in any electronic format (BBS,
Diskette, CD, etc) as long as you include this file intact.

===========================================================================
 

Finally, this is the end of a txt file in another wad which itself is a compilation of the works

of others.

===========================================================================
* Copyright / Permissions *
Authors MAY use the contents of this file as a base for
modification or reuse.  Permissions have been obtained from original
authors for any of their resources modified or included in this file.

You MAY distribute this file, provided you include this text file, with
no modifications.  You may distribute this file in any electronic
format (BBS, Diskette, CD, etc) as long as you include this file
intact.  I have received permission from the original authors of any
modified or included content in this file to allow further distribution.

===========================================================================
 

[houston]

@prfunky Maybe unrelated, but why are you linebreaking at 90 columns? The standard's usually 76 or 80 max if you're into that kind of thing.

[Xaser]

Regardless of any sort of standard linebreak width, it's much much much better for everyone to not do manual linebreaking like that here. It only makes things harder to read, especially on phones. Let everyone adjust the break width to whatever's most comfortable for them rather than try and force something.

[Capellan]

Personally, as long as you genuinely have permission to use the maps (which may in some cases be given in their text files), and you include the proper credits, and you follow all the authors' specified sharing requirements, I don't see an issue.

 

On the other hand, if you grab a bunch of maps that other people made, stick them together and upload them without any attribution or consent, then that is definitely a problem.

[Devalaous]

4 hours ago, Xaser said:

I'm going to be the one fellow who goes against the grain here and says: maybe. The idea of yoinking random maps from well-known megawads is rather "meh", but a sort of "mixtape megawad" assembled from lesser-known single-map wads, arranged tastefully in some way (by theme, difficulty, etc.) could work, provided you know what you're doing and it doesn't just feel like a series of stylistically inconsistent one-offs. And provided you have permission, of course. :P

 

Another place this idea totally works is assembling a megawad out of a series of single-map releases by a single author. It's especially useful for multiplayer's sake -- there's a particular Michael Krause map compilation that I've seen hosted on various MP co-op servers, and it works great for continuous play.

 

Hell, even Master Levels works infinitely better as a compiled megawad IMO than any sort of single-map selection deal -- WadSmoosh to the rescue there. ;)

 

tl;dr: It's totally possible to make something interesting here, but it certainly takes more planning and skill than just finding some stuff and slapping it together.

 

Honestly, I would love to see a modern take on 'Heroes' and 'Heroes 2' that assembles all sorts of single maps that would likely get less exposure on thier own.

 

On the second and third points, when I was converting stuff for the Unity port, I did try my hand at consolidating the other works of the Master Levels authours into one file, but the custom textures ruined my day. I wasn't quite smart enough to resolve all those texture conflicts, so thats one thing that definitely needs to be considered as well

Edited June 29, 2023 by Devalaous