Making/Releasing maps you can't beat

[Captain POLAND]

Is it considered bad form to create and release maps that are too difficult for you (the creator of the map) to beat without TAS or cheats? I don't mean maps that are ridiculously impossible, but something like is just significantly beyond your own skill level. Even if the thought process is something like 'Wow, I made this map really hard. But there are better players than me out there, so I'd like to see how they beat it'?

 

 

 

 

[BeachThunder]

Yes. At very least, you should have someone who does have the required skill to test the level.

[spineapple tea]

That was my approach to releasing things when I first got into mapping since that was also sort of when I got into the game and, in turned, sucked. I think one guy said my first map was really easy and ever since then I've been the guy that makes a random step up in difficulty early into a community project for no good reason. I think at most it's ok to release a map that you can't finish single segment also given it's not too long and you don't need to load your save around every step. If you need cheats, slower game speed, etc, you probably want to rethink your approach.

Edited July 1, 2023 by spineapple tea

[Capellan]

It's absolutely fine to make a map that's too hard for you to finish / find enjoyable to finish, provided you get it play-tested by other people who can finish it, and you listen to their feedback.

 

 

[Andrea Rovenski]

any map I make I 100% before posting, and it helps me get better at the game if it is too challenging :)

[pavera]

eh, I can barely beat any of my maps without saves, people seem to like em overall.

[Lucius Wooding]

Personally I'd never do it. I put a pretty high emphasis on playtesting my own stuff so I couldn't do it properly if it couldn't be beaten. I'm also not a fan of making any fights that are heavily RNG based or require insane execution to beat; I'd rather make something I could consistently beat at least. Some fights may require clever strategies or planning to beat and that's fair game. However I like to make clear allowances in my map design to the player to handle threats. Cover for fighting archviles, high DPS weapons for handling pressure, space to move and healing to recover incidental damage. Sometimes these allowances can require creativity, caution or an experienced eye to notice and good players will appreciate those. I like to reward the observant player even if they're not the highest skilled when it comes to execution.

 

The line between ridiculousness and intricate combat puzzles can be pretty thin at times, but good players are far more qualified to know the difference. At best if I tried to make something way over my head I'd be asking great players to waste a lot of time grinding on something that might be Zero fun to Master. And if they could beat it somewhat easily then it just exposes me as a noob for thinking it's hard. It's lose-lose; better to actually improve as a player and learn how to beat more hard sets yourself. One author I read said it's necessary to read 100 books before attempting to write one and I think it applies to mapping as well if you want it to turn out really well. 

 

I recently went back and played one of mine on -fast and it was actually quite tough but surprisingly playable. I could probably beat it with a couple saves but it'd take a grind to get a saveless run. I think if I were going for an uber challenge mode I'd rather do it via coop monster placements and/or fast monsters for the players looking for a harder mode. My audience is small enough without making the map a giant fuck you to every non Doomgod.

[baja blast rd.]

37 minutes ago, Captain POLAND said:

Is it considered bad form to create and release maps that are too difficult for you (the creator of the map) to beat without TAS or cheats? I don't mean maps that are ridiculously impossible, but something like is just significantly beyond your own skill level. Even if the thought process is something like 'Wow, I made this map really hard. But there are better players than me out there, so I'd like to see how they beat it'?

This question reads as if it might mean "beat saveless" but I'm not sure so I'll just answer both: 

I think it'd be pretty weird to release a map where you need TAS to beat individual fights, or when you can't finish the map even with saves. 

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with people releasing maps they can't or probably can't beat in a single saveless segment. A lot of mappers are not especially good players (some even consider themselves "bad'), or simply don't play saveless on a regular basis and aren't good at it and might struggle with beating surprisingly easy maps saveless but can make fun gameplay when testing with saves. 

[Herr Dethnout]

At least you should have a playtester that can complete your map without cheats nor tas.

 

In my case, if I release another map in the future just gonna do in my firsr map.

 

Provide a demo of me completing the map. :P

Edited July 1, 2023 by Herr Dethnout

[Skronkidonk]

I personally think you should be able to beat the map without saves before releasing it.
If you can't beat it than have someone else beat it for you, besides, it's always good to have feedback from someone playing your map. Whether that's balancing, bugs, softlocks etc.

[Dark Pulse]

Look at it this way: You know where all the secrets are, you know where all the traps are, you know where all the monsters and their closets are.

 

If you can't beat it, how's a player with no foreknowledge supposed to unless they're considerably more skilled than you are?

[xScavengerWolfx]

When i make maps i tent for them to be both hard as hell but also be able to finish them. If i make it way to hard to the point i can't finish them, i just trim it down to where again it's still hard but beatable.

 

Another words if i made a map way too hard even myself can't beat it, i just scrap it and redo it.

[RHhe82]

Does "TAS" mean using saves, or something else too?

 

Personally, I don't think single-segmenting your own maps is required. When I play Doom, I use saves unless the map is very easy or very short anyway, so sticking to that rule would have me create too easy maps - especially considering most of the players are more skilled than me. But I think I think that you shouldn't struggle with your map. You know your layout and encounters well, it shouldn't be (near-)impossible for you to reach the exit. If it is, you can't be quite certain whether or not even more skilled players would be able to complete it without relying heavily on RNG, or at all.

 

I guess I could say that when I'm done with creating a map, even if I haven't single-segmented myself, I should still ask myself: would a (far) more skilled player be able to single-segment it? The answer is yes, if I'm able to comfortably beat parts (each encounter, each section, each something) of my map saveless.

 

Cheats are, of course, totally another story. I wouldn't use cheats during playtesting unless I'm just skipping parts to test some specific mechanic etc.

[Dark Pulse]

2 minutes ago, RHhe82 said:

Does "TAS" mean using saves, or something else too?

Tool-Assisted Speedrun. Usually means rewinds, frame advance, potentially RNG manipulation, etc.

[RHhe82]

1 minute ago, Dark Pulse said:

Tool-Assisted Speedrun. Usually means rewinds, frame advance, potentially RNG manipulation, etc.

 

Okay -- frame advance and RNG manipulation sound dubious in this context. But rewinds, I consider it like reloading quick saves. I guess one way of looking at the situation is:

 

- Can you beat your own map without saves ("reasonable rewinding")?

- Can you beat your own map withouht savescumming ("rewinding in small bits")?

 

... and I think you should be able to beat without what I'd consider savescumming. But when does saving become savescumming, beats me, and I honestly don't even want to have that conversation.

[RonnieJamesDiner]

I only did this once, and it was the best map I ever made.

[Just a guy]

I've stuck so far with making only maps which I can beat saveless and without secrets. I figure I want to make so many maps I forget about all of them, then come back in a few years and still be able to beat them.  That said, I've played a number of wads where I find myself wondering how well it's creator would fare. I mean, Okuplok, right? 

[slowfade]

I can't UV-max my more difficult maps without saves. But I test the maps by doing several UV-maxes with saves so I know they're possible for better players. I'm not a good player, so if I could finish without saves I'd ramp up the difficulty...

[eirc]

Phrasing it so general is a bad rule imho. If anything it makes it gatekeepy if a bad player wants to make a hard map. A more reasonable rule of thumb would be to make sure encounters are beatable without excessive savescuming, when coming out from previous parts of the map not fully stocked and not full health and without finding any secrets. If you wanna make something super difficult and above your skill level then it's a good idea (but still not a rule) to get it playtested by ppl that can beat it.

[Shakariki Heisenberg]

i atleast try to get over 80% of everything on my maps before posting it then tweak smtn if its too easy or too hard.