Do you think GZDoom should have texture filtering on by default?

[Herr Dethnout]

32 minutes ago, RataUnderground said:

Finally he answered! 

 

The one and only has spoken!

[Scuba Steve]

1 hour ago, Nash said:

I just had another idea, on top of the presets menu (or simply just a texture filtering tickbox at the IWAD selector):

 

MAPINFO-defined texture filtering settings, just like with lightmode, no jump, no crouch and the like. User will be able to override it to ignore the MAPINFO setting.

I can make PRs for these but there's zero guarantees any of this will get in.

I'm still at a loss for words just how dumb all of this truly is.

 

Not Nash's suggestion mind you, but the idea that we're actually contemplating having people write whole new routines and features to solve the most basic fucking problem imaginable... instead of changing a single variable from on to off (which everyone including the literal creator of the game himself) agrees should be done.

 

If I sound frustrated, it's because I can't wrap my brain around how stupid the resistance is to the single most requested change in GZDoom's history... a change so easy, it would take less than a second to fix. Also, going radio silent so you don't have to defend anything.

[Herr Dethnout]

Yup, in fact, Graf silence is the most amusing part of all this debate.

I mean, instead of say "lol no" when people says about turning filtering off, he just remains mostly in silence, probably watching all this thread...

Idk, a lot of people give a lot of workarounds to this fairly simple problem... And yet, it seem that he wants to bury this and pretend it doesn't exist... :/

Edited July 14, 2023 by Herr Dethnout

[Edward850]

2 hours ago, Nash said:

I just had another idea, on top of the presets menu (or simply just a texture filtering tickbox at the IWAD selector):

 

MAPINFO-defined texture filtering settings, just like with lightmode, no jump, no crouch and the like. User will be able to override it to ignore the MAPINFO setting.

I can make PRs for these but there's zero guarantees any of this will get in.

I think it makes more engineering sense to do it on an asset level rather than global, like how modern graphics pipelines usually handle it. Your graphical team should be the ones to say how their graphics looks.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Edward850

[Individualised]

I'm waiting for the option that allows us to selectively enable filtering on certain elements but not others (i.e. filtering on level geometry but not sprites or HUD. The latter especially I'm really surprised is not part of GZDoom already, it's such a basic feature, and I can't imagine even Graf Zahl thinks a filtered HUD looks good.)

[Kinsie]

8 hours ago, Blzut3 said:

When it comes to setting detection and nagging, the main problem with it (any any form of user agent detection instead of feature detection like KDIKDIZD) is that it's built to assume the status quo won't change.  For example remember when everyone assumed the software renderer would absolutely never ever in a million years get 3D floors and were coming up with ways to force the user to switch to OpenGL?  Now those mods are compatible with the software renderer but they'll still nag even though the reason is invalid.  Plus the burden of making sure that cvar values remain compatible, which in some cases can spill over to non-Z descendant ports that want to implement compatible scripting.

 

I get that ultimately it's a no win situation since people do anything they can to not read and better tools to provide hints haven't been given, so mod authors are going to do it anyway.  There are many reasons port author loathe it though.

Shhh! This isn't a thread for being reasonable.

[Doomkid]

The vast majority of posts in this thread are perfectly reasonable.

[Professor Hastig]

5 hours ago, Nash said:

I just had another idea, on top of the presets menu (or simply just a texture filtering tickbox at the IWAD selector):

 

MAPINFO-defined texture filtering settings, just like with lightmode, no jump, no crouch and the like. User will be able to override it to ignore the MAPINFO setting.

I can make PRs for these but there's zero guarantees any of this will get in.

 

I'd say there's a 100% guarantee these won't get in.

You all are forgetting something here: The choice is not just filter on/filter off, but also texture scaling! While there may be a valid reason to prefer blocky pixels, the lines blur a lot with users who use the texture upscaling feature. Yes, I can see that you see this just as wrong as plain filtering, but it's different tastes for different people. Unlike presetting gameplay mechanics this has no effect on the map's playability.

 

4 hours ago, Scuba Steve said:

If I sound frustrated, it's because I can't wrap my brain around how stupid the resistance is to the single most requested change in GZDoom's history... a change so easy, it would take less than a second to fix. Also, going radio silent so you don't have to defend anything.

 

3 hours ago, Herr Dethnout said:

Yup, in fact, Graf silence is the most amusing part of all this debate.

I mean, instead of say "lol no" when people says about turning filtering off, he just remains mostly in silence, probably watching all this thread...

Idk, a lot of people give a lot of workarounds to this fairly simple problem... And yet, it seem that he wants to bury this and pretend it doesn't exist... :/

 

Do you really still expect a response after all the shit show that has been going on here? The entire thread has been endless shouting of 'You are wrong... Wrong... WRONG!!!" You literally have punched Graf into a corner where there's no chance to save face anymore. It's lose-lose by now. Either he stands firm and is subjected to your continued wrath or he gives in, giving you all confirmation that this kind of - as somebody has already called it - bullying is a successful means of negotiation.

TBH, I don't expect anything to happen at all as long as this thread goes on.

 

3 hours ago, Individualised said:

I'm waiting for the option that allows us to selectively enable filtering on certain elements but not others (i.e. filtering on level geometry but not sprites or HUD. The latter especially I'm really surprised is not part of GZDoom already, it's such a basic feature, and I can't imagine even Graf Zahl thinks a filtered HUD looks good.)

 

True, but I think this part is a bit more complex. Again, texture scaling is also an important factor here, if not even more so than for the 3D view. I think using the xBRZ filter does a lot making the text elements on the HUD and menu look better. It avoids the blurriness but also the blockiness of the original fonts. But with the currently available options this simply won't work right because the scaling algorithm is global for all elements (i.e. you cannot use Normal2x for game textures and xBRZ for the font and if you scale the fonts they will get scaled everywhere) and one global texture filter setting.

 

If you ask me the entire presentation setup needs some significant reworking where the texture filter on/off is just one element of many that needs optimization to make things good.

 

[Kinsie]

I've requested per-asset filter selection via GLDEFS in the past, with the aim - ironically enough - of forcing the bilinear filter on for certain assets where smoother gradients are preferred, like smoke and fire particle effects, or high-res text/fonts that would benefit from anti-aliasing. No luck, but maybe one day.

 

Personally, I'd prefer the texture scaling filters get put in the bin, because they have (or had at one point, anyway) a remarkable habit of causing tech support issues where people would turn them on on weak systems (because higher-res = gooder) and fill up their VRAM with a quickness, greatly lowering performance. They also make my bad pixel art look even worse than normal, so it's kind of surprising that they aren't part of this thread.

[Professor Hastig]

10 minutes ago, Kinsie said:

I've requested per-asset filter selection via GLDEFS in the past, with the aim - ironically enough - of forcing the bilinear filter on for certain assets where smoother gradients are preferred, like smoke and fire particle effects, or high-res text/fonts that would benefit from anti-aliasing. No luck, but maybe one day.

 

 

Truth be told, I had a look at the code to see how hard it is. While it was easy enough for my limited programming skills to make some changes to the light mode handling, this is on an entirely different level of complexity that reaches deep into the texture management and other parts of the renderer that are not in a state where a simple switch can be thrown.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Kinsie said:

Personally, I'd prefer the texture scaling filters get put in the bin, because they have (or had at one point, anyway) a remarkable habit of causing tech support issues where people would turn them on on weak systems (because higher-res = gooder) and fill up their VRAM with a quickness, greatly lowering performance. They also make my bad pixel art look even worse than normal, so it's kind of surprising that they aren't part of this thread. 

 

There we got the preference thing again. Some people may prefer that sharp but not blocky look you get. Where I'd have to agree is to bin the higher scaling factors - and all the legacy scaling algorithms. xBRZ and NormalNx should be enough. Also, 90% of the time 2x upscaling is enough when combined with linear filtering. Especially the factors above 4 don't do anything good at all aside from wasting memory and processing time.

 

[Gez]

55 minutes ago, Kinsie said:

Personally, I'd prefer the texture scaling filters get put in the bin, because they have (or had at one point, anyway) a remarkable habit of causing tech support issues where people would turn them on on weak systems (because higher-res = gooder) and fill up their VRAM with a quickness, greatly lowering performance. They also make my bad pixel art look even worse than normal, so it's kind of surprising that they aren't part of this thread.

I think they look good for the fonts. Terrible for the typical sprites and textures, but good for fonts.

[banjiepixel]

1 hour ago, Professor Hastig said:

Do you really still expect a response after all the shit show that has been going on here? The entire thread has been endless shouting of 'You are wrong... Wrong... WRONG!!!" You literally have punched Graf into a corner where there's no chance to save face anymore. It's lose-lose by now. Either he stands firm and is subjected to your continued wrath or he gives in, giving you all confirmation that this kind of - as somebody has already called it - bullying is a successful means of negotiation.

 

 

I disagree. If Graf doesn't have the maturity to atleast make actual statement to directly address the very valid issues brought up by this discussion, he is just simply being a coward. And those that don't have the backbone to actually stand behind their decisions and defend them when questioned should be called out to do so. Graf is in a position where he could get away with almost everything without consequences and expecting him to have some accountability isn't unreasonable or bullying.

[RataUnderground]

Would you please treat this matter as the mild annoyance that it is, and not as if we were gambling with the future of Doom?
It's not worth it to cause anyone an anxiety attack, or to feel unwelcome in the doomworld community.

[Professor Hastig]

2 minutes ago, RataUnderground said:

Would you please treat this matter as the mild annoyance that it is, and not as if we were gambling with the future of Doom?
It's not worth it to cause anyone an anxiety attack, or to feel unwelcome in the doomworld community.

 

I believe that some people can't think that far. :P

This whole thread reeks of typical 'internet drama', i.e. a bunch of geeks getting hung up on some minor issue that's of no relevance for the greater community but gives a devastating impression of how the discussion culture looks like here.

 

[baja blast rd.]

expecting anyone to keep up with a 400+ post forum thread with lots of long posts in a timely fashion (or at all) is asking way too much imo, regardless of involvement with the subject matter, especially when it's pretty far from the 1st time this discussion has been had. not everyone has the hours to fritter away and forums are not an obligatory quick-reply medium like Twitter/Reddit/Discord that seems to have rewritten people's expectations of time scales. there's plenty of things to lol Graf for but not participating in this thread is not one of those. (ftr I've only been skimming this thread for images/memes and fresh pasta.)

 

 

edit because I was typing a response as someone was locking the thread: 

 

29 minutes ago, Herr Dethnout said:

That would be fine, but he actually made a post in this thread although it wasn't related to this subject. So he's cleary aware of this.

 

Also, this thread was made when Graf and Scuba started arguing about filtering and he asked about proof that general public doesn't like filters (Something that Rata proved and even Romero itself agrees that it should turned off).

 

I mean, he doesn't need yo participate here but  there are other threads derived from this that give a lot of workarounds of this thing...

 

Keeping dead silence looks pretty bad.

 

This is overdramatic. Nothing says you have to post in a thread every day, week, month, or whatever.

Edited July 14, 2023 by baja blast rd.

[Lucius Wooding]

I don't think the basic premise of the thread is bullying, but there's only so many times you can make the same point and call out someone by name before it becomes bullying. Yeah, it'd be an easy change but the creator refuses to implement it even though the majority support the change. We knew that for years before starting the poll.

 

It's stubborn yes, but I don't see why it makes him immature or a coward. He's undoubtedly seen the same arguments before and chooses not to partake in this, I can only assume it's because people are too worked up and just being completely repetitive. Not really very inviting to a healthy debate if you ask me. It's more of a community venting thread at this point which is fine but I think a lot of the shit talking is a bit counterproductive.

[Gez]

1 hour ago, banjiepixel said:

I disagree. If Graf doesn't have the maturity to atleast make actual statement to directly address the very valid issues brought up by this discussion, he is just simply being a coward. And those that don't have the backbone to actually stand behind their decisions and defend them when questioned should be called out to do so.

Here's another data point for you:

Graf's commit history on GZDoom

 

As you can see, nothing happened for nearly one month so far (last commit on June 18). Maybe he's busy with Actual Work Stuff™?

 

1 hour ago, banjiepixel said:

Graf is in a position where he could get away with almost everything without consequences and expecting him to have some accountability isn't unreasonable or bullying.

"Get away with almost everything"; once again you speak as if this weren't a discussion about one setting in one of the dozens of source ports for a 30-year-old game.

 

I invite you to go touch grass.

[Kinsie]

Just now, Gez said:

Here's another data point for you:

Graf's commit history on GZDoom

 

As you can see, nothing happened for nearly one month so far (last commit on June 18). Maybe he's busy with Actual Work Stuff™?

Graf's usually pretty quiet development-wise in the European summer on account of holidays and nice weather.

[banjiepixel]

1 hour ago, RataUnderground said:

Would you please treat this matter as the mild annoyance that it is, and not as if we were gambling with the future of Doom?
It's not worth it to cause anyone an anxiety attack, or to feel unwelcome in the doomworld community.

 

It is a mild annoyance but we should also expect hobbyist projects like GZDoom to meet the industry standard when it is so minimal tweak to the source code. I mean projects like Libreoffice and Gimp also try to meet the industry standards so why not also GZDoom? And all three are being used in commercial context too. And I dont't think I have said anything that should cause Graf to have a anxiety attack or to feel unwelcome in the doomworld community. Biggest issue is how badly Graf is communicatng with the community, especially with this much requested easy change to GZDoom defaults.

 

1 hour ago, Professor Hastig said:

 

I believe that some people can't think that far. :P

This whole thread reeks of typical 'internet drama', i.e. a bunch of geeks getting hung up on some minor issue that's of no relevance for the greater community but gives a devastating impression of how the discussion culture looks like here.

 

 

I have already gotten pretty bad impression how the discussion culture in this community just because how low the standards seem to be here. There is alot of depth in this discussion that goes beyond more typical discussion here and it is saying alot that more theory and opinion focused discussion is something some people want to shut down just because it has been discussed before and realistically will not lead to Graf changing th default setting.

 

1 hour ago, Lucius Wooding said:

It's stubborn yes, but I don't see why it makes him immature or a coward. He's undoubtedly seen the same arguments before and chooses not to partake in this, I can only assume it's because people are too worked up and just being completely repetitive.

 

I didn't mean to imply that Graf is being immature and therefore a coward for not making a statement. I understand that he could be just too busy or maybe has mental issues due not taking criticism well. But in the end, this discussion is people using their freedom of speech and that doesn't end with Graf's disagreement.I am not saying that everything in this discussion has been rhetorically good but the truth is that people are making a extremely reasonable and logical request that would make GZDoom pretty objectively better. 

 

43 minutes ago, Gez said:

As you can see, nothing happened for nearly one month so far (last commit on June 18). Maybe he's busy with Actual Work Stuff™?

 

I am not expecting Graf to make a statement instantly and same goes for changing the default. I was merely speculating the situation where we would never get a statement.

 

43 minutes ago, Gez said:

"Get away with almost everything"; once again you speak as if this weren't a discussion about one setting in one of the dozens of source ports for a 30-year-old game.

 

It is a setting that has pretty objectively a wrong default. Just look the community and public opinion, Look the industry standard for games with similar graphic style as Doom. Look how the latest official release of Doom looks like or what the commercial games using GZDoom use as their default. Just look how easy it is for the developers of GZDoom to change the default what comes to the changes to the source code.

 

The bad default is literally being accepted only because of GZDoom being the top dog and people being reliant on it's advanced features without a competitor that could be taken seriously. GZDoom is basically the Youtube of Doom source ports. People can't leave as long as the content is still there so the rest of the user experience matters very little and doesn't need to actually improve. In fact it can be made much worse and people will still stay.

Edited July 14, 2023 by banjiepixel

[Professor Hastig]

16 minutes ago, banjiepixel said:

 

It is a mild annoyance but we should also expect hobbyist projects like GZDoom to meet the industry standard when it is so minimal tweak to the source code. I mean projects like Libreoffice and Gimp also try to meet the industry standards so why not also GZDoom? And all three are being used in commercial context too. And I dont't think I have said anything that should cause Graf to have a anxiety attack or to feel unwelcome in the doomworld community. Biggest issue is how badly Graf is communicatng with the community, especially with this much requested easy change to GZDoom defaults.

 

 

You mean that industry standard that Microsoft constantly ignores by forcing dumb UI changes onto the user - like the Windows 11 taskbar -  while slowly crippling the old, better implementation? Or, since you mention Gimp, a piece of software with one of the arguably most inane and unusable user interfaces ever?

 

You see, it's hard to argue common sense here because in both these cases the developers shove something "objectively bad" down our throats while we can do nothing about it - presumably because they LIKE what they got!

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Professor Hastig

[Lucius Wooding]

4 minutes ago, banjiepixel said:

I didn't mean to imply that Graf is being immature and therefore a coward for not making a statement. I understand that he could be just too busy or maybe has mental issues due not taking criticism well. But in the end, this discussion is people using their freedom of speech and that doesn't end with Graf's disagreement.

 

2 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

If Graf doesn't have the maturity to atleast make actual statement to directly address the very valid issues brought up by this discussion, he is just simply being a coward. And those that don't have the backbone to actually stand behind their decisions and defend them when questioned should be called out to do so. Graf is in a position where he could get away with almost everything without consequences and expecting him to have some accountability isn't unreasonable or bullying.

 

I don't see how you couldn't mean to imply that. You all but said it outright and it's part of a provocation that's been made over and over. He has the right not to respond and it really isn't productive to demand a resolution when there's nothing hugely wrong with leaving it be. I agree filtering should default to off but I'm not going to be confrontational about it. Graf not communicating with the community isn't really an issue at all. Quit being a Karen when you didn't pay for the software in the first place.

 

And making the freedom of speech argument isn't really great here either. Of course we have the right to criticize. But having the right to free speech doesn't really excuse personal insults. 

[Professor Hastig]

4 minutes ago, Lucius Wooding said:

And making the freedom of speech argument isn't really great here either. Of course we have the right to criticize. But having the right to free speech doesn't really excuse personal insults. 

 

Too many people mistake freedom of speech with freedom to act like a dick. And they are normally the first ones insisting on their "right".

 

[banjiepixel]

1 hour ago, Professor Hastig said:

 

You mean that industry standard that Microsoft constantly ignores by forcing dumb UI changes onto the user - like the Windows 11 taskbar -  while slowly crippling the old, better implementation? Or, since you mention Gimp, a piece of software with one of the arguably most inane and unusable user interfaces ever?

 

Remember the scale here, complete UI code overhaul vs tiny tweak to the defaults. That makes all the difference.

 

1 hour ago, Lucius Wooding said:

I don't see how you couldn't mean to imply that.

 

It's that "If" that does alot of heavy lifting to communicate what I meant.

 

1 hour ago, Lucius Wooding said:

He has the right not to respond

 

Best way to make people not to expect the default being changed is to make a clear public statement about it instead just randomly stating his stance in the forms. Consequences of choosing not to make actual real statement about the issue is that people will keep on speculating and requesting the default being changed. He has right to not to make a statement, but by him not giving us clear answers to explain his decision, all we can do is to speculate that it is because he is being immature.

 

1 hour ago, Lucius Wooding said:

Quit being a Karen when you didn't pay for the software in the first place.

 

I am approaching this thing from the perspective of having better standards within the community. Both GZDoom and Graf as the frontman of it make many mistakes that others should learn not to do.

 

1 hour ago, Lucius Wooding said:

And making the freedom of speech argument isn't really great here either. Of course we have the right to criticize. But having the right to free speech doesn't really excuse personal insults. 

 

Speculating something and claiming something are two differents things. And it is he not giving more clear answer in the past that is forcing us to speculate.

 

1 hour ago, Professor Hastig said:

Too many people mistake freedom of speech with freedom to act like a dick. And they are normally the first ones insisting on their "right".

 

It's actually you who is mistaken, people have full freedom to act like a dick. It's just that freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of acting like a dick. And it does atleast seem alot like Graf is acting like a dick and this discussion is the consequences of it bouncing back against Graf.

 

As Graf knows about what people think about the default very well, it's pretty damning that Graf hasn't made any kind of compromise at this point, not even tiny step. Many people would pretty satisfied with texture filtering being able to be turned off from the launcher. And the absolutely minimum should be there being a command line parameter that turns filtering off so issue can fixed with a .bat file.

Edited July 14, 2023 by banjiepixel

[Lucius Wooding]

Don't pretend that hedging with the "if" means anything. You said it in that way to be provocative on purpose. It's no different than calling him the names directly. At least have the backbone to actually stand behind your insults. You're relying on the silence of the other person to make your points and try to make him look bad. Clearly you're taking it as a personal offense that you're being ignored and trying to claim Graf is being a dick when he's done nothing like a personal attack against you.

 

There's no reason for you to be posting over 20 times in this thread making the same arguments over and over just because you haven't gotten your way. I'm with @Gez, touch grass.

 

 

[Kinsie]

This entire thread at this point:

 

[Scuba Steve]

If you ding dongs would stop trying to add your two cents and play peacemaker, it would be a lot easier to get @Graf Zahl to respond to my questions. I keep replying with the same points so my argument doesn't get pushed up...

•  Graf chose to engaged with this thread and asked for proof people don't like it... The implication being that public opinion is the reason for the default setting. We know this now to be objectively untrue: 95% of people hate it and even John Romero things it should be off.
• All commercial games using the GZDoom engine hate it and turn it off by default.
• Carefully crafted artwork (particularly sprites) are ruined because a mathematical algorithm is arbitrarily blurring them and stripping them of detail.

Remember, Graf chose to engage with this topic and then went radio silent when his question was answered. He's a big boy and can handle himself. Please don't reply to this, it's not directed at anyone else.

[Redneckerz]

3 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

 

I disagree. If Graf doesn't have the maturity to atleast make actual statement to directly address the very valid issues brought up by this discussion, he is just simply being a coward.

The bolded is a good reason why anyone, let alone a developer of a popular port, would interact. 

But ScubaSteve does the same i can hear you say. Yes, but Scuba, as i point out later, has a rather large investment in this stake, both WAD wise and history wise. This isn't to belittle you, but from what i can tell is your influence and historical affilation a lot shorter than Scuba's. This doesn't mean your views are invalid, but it does mean that when you call someone a coward, the historic context matters a lot more. Scuba calls Graf words for reasons.

 

You call Graf words because.... i have a certain kind of standard? Its not the same thing, especially in a community where a lot of veterans are tightly knitted and/or have worked with eachother in the past on high level projects.

 

3 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

Graf is in a position where he could get away with almost everything without consequences and expecting him to have some accountability isn't unreasonable or bullying.

Calling him a coward isn't going to do jack shit other than to piss people off.

 

2 hours ago, RataUnderground said:

Would you please treat this matter as the mild annoyance that it is, and not as if we were gambling with the future of Doom?
It's not worth it to cause anyone an anxiety attack, or to feel unwelcome in the doomworld community.

While i don't think Graf has any bother from those (To the contrary if history permits) i am not pleased with the terminology at use here by some members. The only reason i can get it from someone like Scuba Steve is because Scuba has a lot of personal and historic investment in this thing and has voiced his dissatisfaction on this before.

 

Banji, however, i feel uses certain terminology both as a means of explanation but also (perhaps unintended) as a means to provoke. If there is anything that has never worked on Graf, it is using that kind of terminology. Like calling him a coward because you have a better sense of standards in your eyes. Especially when its about a one-line change. 

 

If anything, i propose we rather help Graf and compile a list of postings from this thread worth looking into. Nash's posts are particularly insightful, as were some of Kinsie's, RataUnderground's and indeed Scuba Steve's. 

 

I believe that helps the discussion moving forward instead of this petulant need to tell Graf he is wrong. 97% of us, incl John Romero believe differently (MajorCooke on the other hand is a proponent of filtering!) and at this stage it might be best to just present those posts in one compiled post and link that to the OP.

 

Because i do agree a statement should follow from Graf, especially when we have historic links to earlier PR's, poll results and other evidence pertaining to a change, aswell as suggestions (Wizard's, custom prompts) that are useful to denote. I figure those suggestions should be PR's instead (Rather than filing in a PR with code to change the filtering at start up) because that would be a far easier method for Graf to be swayed at. @Nash would you consider filing in your earlier suggestion as a PR?

 

1 hour ago, banjiepixel said:

I mean projects like Libreoffice and Gimp also try to meet the industry standards so why not also GZDoom?

Because those products are maintained by a large network of developers or are resolved in a foundation, whereas GZDoom has a single, primary developer, Christoph Oelckers (Graf Zahl). And Graf has his private work next to this - GZDoom is a hobbyist project, unlike GIMP/Libreoffice.

1 hour ago, banjiepixel said:

I understand that he could be just too busy or maybe has mental issues due not taking criticism well.

Can you just please stop with this kind of suggestive reasoning? It is very uncalled for to do this kind of thing because like i said, its only provocative and leads to nothing.

 

If i were going to do the same thing but to you, you would get upset aswell because that's what my intent would be. I really want to believe your intent isn't to rile up anyone but with crapshoot statements like these placed inbetween i feel you aren't doing this on accident.

[Kinsie]

10 minutes ago, Scuba Steve said:

Please don't reply to this, it's not directed at anyone else.

So use the Private Messaging system and you won't have us shameful proles getting in your way. This is a public, open thread in a public, open forum. Other people are gonna take part.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Kinsie

[dpJudas]

8 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

Because i do agree a statement should follow from Graf, especially when we have historic links to earlier PR's, poll results and other evidence pertaining to a change, aswell as suggestions (Wizard's, custom prompts) that are useful to denote. I figure those suggestions should be PR's instead (Rather than filing in a PR with code to change the filtering at start up) because that would be a far easier method for Graf to be swayed at. @Nash would you consider filing in your earlier suggestion as a PR?

I would personally not waste time on anything related to this subject until I've gotten a positive confirmation before starting that such a PR would actually be approved. Lets not pretend anything related to this subject is really blocked by lack of developers willing to do changes.

 

9 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

Because those products are maintained by a large network of developers or are resolved in a foundation, whereas GZDoom has a single, primary developer, Christoph Oelckers (Graf Zahl).

No. See https://github.com/ZDoom/gzdoom/graphs/contributors - these stats aren't even that accurate as it doesn't fully show the contributions of early ZDoom and GZDoom. Graf is the author of a lot of things and has done a ton of work, but saying the port has a single primary developer is IMHO not accurate at all.

[Kinsie]

Frankly, as far as GZDoom contributors go, I think _mental_ deserves a lot more praise than he gets for pretty much single-handedly keeping the Mac version afloat. It's not a platform with a lot of users or attention, but bless 'im, he's giving them one less reason to reach for the Windows VM.