DBP59: Zeppelin Armada

[mancubian_candidate]

This is mind blowing stuff, I could not stop smiling after the start of Map 2. 

 

Have one minor issue to report:

Spoiler

Found a HOM right here in Map 5 :)

 

Spoiler

 

[JoeSchmoe]

43 minutes ago, Cammy said:

 

  Hide contents

In map06, the BFG didn't lower when I returned the workman's pliers. I suspect it may have had something to do with a sequence break I unknowingly performed: I got the pliers early by jumping onto this ledge, thinking it was a secret.

 

 

I encountered a similar issue with the BFG. I strafe-jumped from the nearby platform onto the pillar holding the yellow skull, which let me open the door leading to the pliers way before I had encountered the workman. When I walked in and spoke with him, he thanked me and said "take this!" only for nothing to have happened.

 

Really fantastic map otherwise though! Absolutely in love with the verticality. The scope feels so grand but it remains circuitous with you bounding up and down the falls as hordes of demonic denizens crash your party

[TJG1289]

I'm on map 06 now, and this is absolutely fantastic! It's hard to believe this is limit-removing. The fact there are NPCs that give you side-quests in the maps is an incredibly awesome addition! And the environments and setting is so cool. I never thought Auger;Zenith could be topped, but if the quality of these maps stay this good, it probably will top it.

 

Only issue I've found so far is actually in the credits. Map06's MIDI is Hypercube by stewboy from Ancient Aliens, not the MIDI from Nova 3's map20

 

Edit: Another issue. The BFG didn't lower for me in Map06 either, and I'm pretty sure I didn't sequence break anything

Edited July 4, 2023 by TJG1289

[TheShep]

can't wait to get into this bad boy!

[roadworx]

hey, can you guys at least give credit to where you ripped your assets from?

 

edit: not saying it's a bad thing to use assets from other sources, that's literally a cornerstone of the community

Edited July 5, 2023 by roadworx

[AM0TD]

This is awesome. Fun, sometimes challenging.

 

P.S. MAP02 and MAP05 can be finished in less than 30 seconds =)

[SleepyVelvet]

51 minutes ago, roadworx said:

~stuff~

This is par for the course as far as 40oz is concerned.  Should I nudge him a bit more about creditting?  He usually does a one-degree-of-separation thing when it comes to some of these things, like let's look at the music credits, for example: usually he does a surface credit and notes where a midi is from, even if the midi is creditted as "MAP20 from Nova 3", etc.

 

but then there's stuff like: https://doomer.boards.net/post/46888/thread DBP53's Intermission screen, which was probably photoshopped "otherwork" in it's own self, funny enough...

Quote

PS. some dude named RaidyHD vk.com/raidyhd

For art-integrity reasons and legal reasons I don't endorse its use.

(But I personally enjoy seeing Holo pop up after completing a doom map unexpectedly. And dang it looks pretty and shows off the palette.)

 

 

everything else... 40oz is a photoshop/marketing/mild-programming guru so... they probably just "do shit" instinctively and it just plays out... I guess...  Even the dumb shit that I want to punch his dumb ugly/handsome face in for reasons...

 

otherwise... enjoy the mapset.  it's actually fucking FIRE!!!

 

I'd advise everyon to simply enjoying what's here.

Edited July 5, 2023 by NoisyVelvet

[SleepyVelvet]

actually... I'm pissed I didn't finish my own map for this thing... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

[Scuba Steve]

I know the Doom community has a rather laissez-faire attitude about reusing assets... but I checked the text document and there isn't even a mention that the sprites were taken from a recent indie game. That's a bad look.

[indigotyrian]

Honestly I think cribbing assets from other works for non-commercial works, even (especially!) without permission, is perfectly fine (and frankly is a vital part of many different forms of artistic expression, including modding) though I do think that DBPs in general could stand to be better about crediting the materials used, if only to allow other modders to more easily find those sources for their own works. As it stands DBPs generally only credit MIDIs and even then half the time it's pointing to another WAD.

 

Granted, given the way the DBP resources are compiled it can be rather difficult to actually find the source of certain textures or MIDIs, especially when the WAD you're grabbing them from doesn't have the sources themselves, and IMO expecting someone to sit down and trace back the origin of every single patch just isn't viable. Citing the sources for where you know what they came from is fine.

Edited July 5, 2023 by indigotyrian

[JoeSchmoe]

It's a non-commercial use so I'm sure that it's not absolutely 100% necessary but there's literally no reason not to, and those sprites are used pretty extensively throughout the levels, so it's a shame that there isn't a mention on the original post or even the accompany text doc

[Scuba Steve]

It's not only 'fine' it's the unspoken rule.

[indigotyrian]

Just now, Scuba Steve said:

It's not only 'fine' it's the unspoken rule.

 

Unspoken rule? How many WADs out there cribbed shit from other WADs, other games, other non-game works, without any sort of source or even any clue as to what they might have come from? How many other kinds of derivative works out there provide exhaustive lists of samples or clips they've taken? It's a good thing to have, certainly, but I think the language and attitudes bubbling up here are a little extreme for what "crime" was committed.

[roadworx]

36 minutes ago, indigotyrian said:

Honestly I think cribbing assets from other works for non-commercial works, even (especially!) without permission, is perfectly fine (and frankly is a vital part of many different forms of artistic expression, including modding) though I do think that DBPs in general could stand to be better about crediting the materials used, if only to allow other modders to more easily find those sources for their own works. As it stands DBPs generally only credit MIDIs and even then half the time it's pointing to another WAD.

 

Granted, given the way the DBP resources are compiled it can be rather difficult to actually find the source of certain textures or MIDIs, especially when the WAD you're grabbing them from doesn't have the sources themselves, and IMO expecting someone to sit down and trace back the origin of every single patch just isn't viable. Citing the sources for where you know what they came from is fine.

it's more about the lack of crediting that's the issue, at least in my eyes. it's important to give credit!!

Edited July 5, 2023 by roadworx

[Scuba Steve]

That's why it's unspoken. None of the rules in this community are written on stone tablets and the archive would be mostly empty if we removed everything with unattributed, copyrighted material. When it comes to art by id software, most people don't credit "quake" same kinda goes for Raven assets and to a lesser degree, a lot of build engine stuff. The unspoken rule is that you always attribute anything you've used from someone within the community. In this case, were talking about a recently released indie game where the sprites have been directly used as textures...

 

...this just kiiinda feels like it runs afoul of using the work of an independent creator and not giving them their due, something that's generally frowned upon.

[indigotyrian]

1 minute ago, Scuba Steve said:

That's why it's unspoken. None of the rules in this community are written on stone tablets and the archive would be mostly empty if we removed everything with unattributed, copyrighted material. When it comes to art by id software, most people don't credit "quake" same kinda goes for Raven assets and to a lesser degree, a lot of build engine stuff. The unspoken rule is that you always attribute anything you've used from someone within the community. In this case, were talking about a recently released indie game where the sprites have been directly used as textures...

 

...this just kiiinda feels like it runs afoul of using the work of an independent creator and not giving them their due, something that's generally frowned upon.

 

If it makes you feel better, I've spoken with a few others on the team and we agree that proper attribution is a good thing to have and should be presented (in general, not just for this one instance). I'm going to see if it's possible to get a nice list of sources for all assets used, though please understand that due to circumstances it might not necessarily be complete.

[esselfortium]

5 minutes ago, indigotyrian said:

 

Unspoken rule? How many WADs out there cribbed shit from other WADs, other games, other non-game works, without any sort of source or even any clue as to what they might have come from? How many other kinds of derivative works out there provide exhaustive lists of samples or clips they've taken? It's a good thing to have, certainly, but I think the language and attitudes bubbling up here are a little extreme for what "crime" was committed.

Though I'm sure things have slipped through the cracks before, it's been a soft rule in the community for as long as I can remember: ZDF had (probably still has) a resource rips subforum with an explicit rule against taking resources from games made within the past few years, which seems completely like a completely fair guideline IMO. And on a personal level I feel like ripping assets from a recent indie game specifically is pretty shameless, credit or no credit (and no credit was given here)...

 

And I'm not really seeing anything in the way of "extreme language and attitudes" here (outside of NoisyVelvet's post that's praising the wad), so I'm not sure where that's coming from.

[Delisk]

Fantastic work there, I really enjoy this unusual setting for a Doom wad

 

I played the first 10 maps (about 7 videos so far) and I do plan to play all the maps. I set up a playlist and will update it as I play each map.

 

 

[roadworx]

9 minutes ago, esselfortium said:

Though I'm sure things have slipped through the cracks before, it's been a soft rule in the community for as long as I can remember: ZDF had (probably still has) a resource rips subforum with an explicit rule against taking resources from games made within the past few years, which seems completely like a completely fair guideline IMO. And on a personal level I feel like ripping assets from a recent indie game specifically is pretty shameless, credit or no credit (and no credit was given here)...

at the same time tho, massmouth 2 yoinks resources from pretty much everywhere it can, and that seems to have gotten a fair pass despite the games it takes from being fairly recent at the time. really the only difference is that it goes out of its way to credit everything

Edited July 5, 2023 by roadworx

[esselfortium]

Just now, roadworx said:

at the same time tho, massmouth 2 yoinks resources from pretty much everywhere it can, and that seems to have gotten a fair pass despite the games it takes from being fairly recent at the time. really the only difference is that it goes out of its way to credit everything

Fair enough, Massmouth was a bit before my time being active in the Doom community. I think the community has largely gotten more conscientious of this stuff over the years, too.

[matador]

I've updated the OP with graphics credits for the NPC sprites. We'll update the readme text during the bugfix as we also have other stuff in there that we need to fix/update.

[Scuba Steve]

Since it was brought to everyone's attention by the creator of the game, maybe it wouldn't hurt for someone to reach out in a private message and just let them know you made sure to credit them? Link the game in the credits?

[OpenRift]

I will always love when you guys make these because they always have such a unique and clear visual identity. I just wish we saw more stuff like this for vanilla ;)

[cannonball]

It’s really cool to see a wad that draws so much from another game. It makes for a really unique doom experience and I think it was a miss-step to not be so open about it.

I played through a few maps last night, again I can only commend the unique immersive feeling the wad gives off and the gameplay felt solid enough

It was a good decision to double the development time, because it is clear that a a lot of time was spent trying to really flesh out the theme and it pays off big time here.

[JoeSchmoe]

A small issue I ran into on Map 12 that I think I'll need to IDCLEV 13 to get past – There's a door with a complicated "swing open" animation that, once visually open, I'm still unable to move forward through. I've tried reloading the save, but have had no such luck. The door appears to be open, but an invisible wall prevents me from moving forward.

[Kinsie]

5 hours ago, indigotyrian said:

Granted, given the way the DBP resources are compiled it can be rather difficult to actually find the source of certain textures or MIDIs, especially when the WAD you're grabbing them from doesn't have the sources themselves, and IMO expecting someone to sit down and trace back the origin of every single patch just isn't viable. Citing the sources for where you know what they came from is fine.

Citing sources is actually very easy, you just put a text lump in the WAD and update it when you import things. If you only know it as FARTS.MUS from DONGS.WAD, put that in until someone um-actuallys you about it, so you can update it. A little legwork and a dash of good faith can get you out of a lot of unnecessary shouting.

 

My current project's CREDITS.TXT file is some 6000+ words at this point, covering the entire project down to the last vertex, so I'm speaking from experience here.

[MortisCausaDonatio]

41 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

A small issue I ran into on Map 12 that I think I'll need to IDCLEV 13 to get past – There's a door with a complicated "swing open" animation that, once visually open, I'm still unable to move forward through. I've tried reloading the save, but have had no such luck. The door appears to be open, but an invisible wall prevents me from moving forward.

There's a fix already provided by the author. Hopefully it's will be updated soon

[slowfade]

The screens look just amazing. Going to load it up later today.

[BiZ]

Congrats to all the mappers and really appreciate all bug reports from the players. We will try to fix as much as possible.

 

 

3 hours ago, cannonball said:

It’s really cool to see a wad that draws so much from another game. It makes for a really unique doom experience and I think it was a miss-step to not be so open about it.

I played through a few maps last night, again I can only commend the unique immersive feeling the wad gives off and the gameplay felt solid enough

It was a good decision to double the development time, because it is clear that a a lot of time was spent trying to really flesh out the theme and it pays off big time here.

 

Don't think much else is drawn from that game except a couple borrowed sprites...(if the story is the same you can burn me at the stake)

 

I can't speak for everyone involved, but this thread is the first time I've heard about these sprites being ripped from the game (shoutsout to DW legal dept). The dev thread for this wad is an open book, so you can browse yourself, but i don't ever remember a mention of hobs barrow or where the NPC sprites came from. I definitely believe in giving credit though, so I will be updating the credits map.

 

The dev cycle for this one ran a bit over the deadline and the release was rushed out before the project lead left on a trip. Its entirely possible that he just forgot to include a full credits list since there were lots of other errors in the readme file (or you can attribute subterfuge/malice as the default motive)...Either way we will see what he says, and then adjust accordingly. Hope you enjoy the wad!

[RataUnderground]

I was the one who warned him. I thought it was polite for him to at least be aware of it.
I'm not entirely sure that if he had been asked in the first place, he would have given permission. But hey, that's the way it is. It's not unforgivable by any means but I think we need to be a little more aware, especially when dealing with the work of other small creatives.

Anyway, Hob's Barrow is great. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by RataUnderground