Should you ever use the regular shotgun after getting the super shotgun?

[Griffonki]

I actually really like the standard shotgun, even more so than the SSG, I just wonder is it a straight downgrade? A lot of people treat it that way but it doesn't seem so...

[TasAcri]

Regular shotgun works better for targets that are further away. It also uses 1 shell instead of 2, so you save ammo when you use it against weaker enemies that don't need a full SSG blast to die.

Edited July 4, 2023 by TasAcri

[idbeholdME]

At close ranges, no.

 

At medium ranges, arguable due to the fact that SSG still sprays almost 3 shells worth of pellets for the cost of 2,  so even if it misses some of them, it is still quite likely to be more efficient than the normal shotgun.

 

At longer ranges, if you're out of bullets, the normal shotgun is superior due to zero vertical spread. Also great for shooting through narrow slits, like under doors.

 

One more use case is of course ammo conservation. No reason to blast 2 Zombiemen with 20 pellets and 2 shells when 7 and 1 shell will do the job just fine.

Edited July 4, 2023 by idbeholdME

[Manny84]

Yeah, you'll blow through ammo in no time if you don't. Pistol/shotgun guys and imps take one regular SG shell to kill; use the SSG on them and you're throwing a shell away.

[Antkibo]

ofc, there's no bad weapon in doom. and regular shotgun has better range if im not mistaken

[RataUnderground]

It is also faster reloading than the super shotgun, which makes it useful when surrounded by zombies.

[DiR]

Sometimes, I use the regular shotgun once just to "even out" the ammo count if it's an odd number before going ham with the SSG. But most of the time I use it for sniping when I don't have the chaingun yet and/or if I'm low on bullets.

[Stabbey]

Yes, on some targets which are at close to medium range. Some maps are tighter on ammo in places, and it can help to not waste shells on weak enemies.

[Gravepicker]

Never. And if you do, you should feel bad.

 

Seriously though, as other have said, the most common use cases are sniping and ammo conservation, but it really depends on the kind of map you're playing and the experience you want. Sometimes corner peaking with a shotgun to slowly kill a group of hitscanners is tedious, sometimes it feels hypnotic and relaxing.

 

1 hour ago, Antkibo said:

ofc, there's no bad weapon in doom. and regular shotgun has better range if im not mistaken

I don't know about that. I mean, I hear there's a pistol in Doom, but somehow I feel like I don't ever see it past the first 20 seconds of any given map.

[Murdoch]

Yes, because it's more accurate. And that you can say that about a shotgun will never not amuse me.

[Herr Dethnout]

Yes

 

In fact, I use the Shotgun for most cases, personally the best all-rounder o all Doomguy's Arsenal.

 

I only use the SSG as a no suicidal rocket launcher (e.g Killing Barons)

[Cosmic79]

In Doom 2 I'd use the super shotgun in most cases. I tried using the regular shotgun on weaker enemies to conserve ammo, but that wasn't very useful, because most enemies required 2 shots anyway and because shotgun ammo is plentiful in that game.

[banjiepixel]

I use regular shotgun very heavily. It often safer against weaker enemies in smaller numbers because there is less of a penalty for missed shots and you generally just don't need the extra fire power of super shotgun against just a group of few zombiemen, shotgun guys or imps. I only use super shotgun when I actually need the greater damage output and the extra spread is useful.

 

For me,super shotgun is generally only for the situations that chaingun or regular shotgun can't handle well and when rocket launcher and plasmagun are unavailable as usable option.

[Graf Zahl]

It's a testament to good game design that the properties of regular and super shotgun are different enough that both weapons remain extremely useful.

 

[Manny84]

10 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

It's a testament to good game design that the properties of regular and super shotgun are different enough that both weapons remain extremely useful.

 

Agreed. Played both Doom and Quake all the way through recently and id forgot this lesson. There is no reason to use the regular shotgun or nailgun once you get the super variants. Whereas in Doom nothing is truly redundant.

[blob1024]

against weaker enemies which cant be packed or moved around, yes.

for example to snipe enemies when you cant use rockets, for enemies behind doors, or in cages, etc...

[Gougaru]

Probably said multiple times but yes. It's fantastic for picking off targets from afar or even if you have your damage knowledge down a good way to kill a target off without wasting ammo 

[DSC]

3 hours ago, Murdoch said:

Yes, because it's more accurate. And that you can say that about a shotgun will never not amuse me.

This thing about shotgun's having a gigantic spread and 10 cm of range is a video game invention, I believe. IRL they are much more accurate, and up to a reasonable distance too.

[Firedust]

I used to be one of those psychotic people who'd switch to regular shotty to fight zombiemen to save a couple shells

 

I don't do that anymore

[Vermil]

I think I've posted this in another thread in the distant past.

 

In Vanilla Doom, hitscan attacks can't detonate on the floor and instead carry on to the nearest wall. In most common source ports hitscan attacks can detonate on the floor.

 

This source port change makes the Super shotgun less effective at long range, than it is in Vanilla Doom it'self.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Vermil

[Griffonki]

6 minutes ago, Firedust said:

I used to be one of those psychotic people who'd switch to regular shotty to fight zombiemen to save a couple shells

 

I don't do that anymore

I am doing that rn!

[Reigada]

2 hours ago, Manny84 said:

Agreed. Played both Doom and Quake all the way through recently and id forgot this lesson. There is no reason to use the regular shotgun or nailgun once you get the super variants. Whereas in Doom nothing is truly redundant.

 

Ironically the shotgun in Quake works more like a pistol

Edited July 4, 2023 by Reigada

[Sunroses]

Honestly in our playthrough of Doom/Doom II we've been using the regular shotgun more. We switch to the super shotgun mostly just for killing chaingunners and pinkies, and perhaps other larger enemies.

[Ravendesk]

This thread is pretty hilarious. Everyone is praising doom game desing for making every weapon useful but pretty much the only example people provide for why shotgun is still useful is basically "uhhh I guess you can snipe enemies off sometimes if they are really far away" which is probably among the least interesting parts of doom gameplay. Trivial in case of low tier snipers and a waste of time in case of mid tier snipers and honestly with rare exceptions is something mapper could have improved by providing opportunities to get closer to the snipers or just giving some rockets.

 

Single shotgun really shines in high pressure situations when you need to hold off a high threat like a revenant in a tight combat but you cannot kill him quickly because you don't have an ssg so you also have to move. It is an interesting weapon on its own, but not  because it has unique niche in doom2 weapon roster, but because it allows very unique encounter situations that other weapons would trivialize.

 

Except for some oddly specific situations single shotgun is completely useless when you have an SSG. But there is nothing wrong with it being completely useless when you have better weapons, it does not make doom combat worse and its up to mapper to create a great experience for the player with the way they handle weapon progression, to make interesting single shotgun combat and then reward a player with a SSG (or with a BFG). 

 

To love single shotgun you don't need to inhale copium and try to remember both maps where you are surrounded by very exact amount of zombies where shotgun will clear them faster due to reload and not ssg due to just killing x2 zombies per shot. Just embrace it for what it is.

 

6 hours ago, Antkibo said:

ofc, there's no bad weapon in doom. and regular shotgun has better range if im not mistaken

You are mistaken, the range is the same. Regular shotgun just doesn't have a vertical spread.

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Ravendesk

[Fluuschoen]

2 hours ago, Manny84 said:

Agreed. Played both Doom and Quake all the way through recently and id forgot this lesson. There is no reason to use the regular shotgun or nailgun once you get the super variants. Whereas in Doom nothing is truly redundant.

Except for the pistol and the fist without Berserk.

[Murdoch]

15 minutes ago, DSC said:

This thing about shotgun's having a gigantic spread and 10 cm of range is a video game invention, I believe. IRL they are much more accurate, and up to a reasonable distance too.

 

Yes and no. It depends on the exact shotgun, how it's setup, and the type of ammo being used. A solid slug will be relatively accurate over a short distance, but has the ballistics of a tennis ball. Then you have bird shot and buckshot whose relative accuracy will depend on how much powder is being used, the distance, and the choke on the shotgun. Tight choke equals tighter spread and more "accuracy" relatively speaking, whereas wider choke means a wider spray and is typically used when shooting birds to increase the odds of a hit. Because most shotgun are smooth bored, they don't get the stablisation you would get in a rifle.  I am not expert, but I have worked a little bit with shotguns as my Dad is a hunter, and I believe that to be the general gist. Just searched and quoth Wikipedia "well over 150 m (160 yd) with saboted slugs in rifled barrels".

 

The configuration of Doom's pump action suggests it's firing buckshot with a very tight choke. But in reality, that configuration would still only have an effective range of about 35 metres. 

[URROVA]

46 minutes ago, Firedust said:

I used to be one of those psychotic people who'd switch to regular shotty to fight zombiemen to save a couple shells

 

I don't do that anymore

i do that and i also switch from chaingun to pistol to save the 1 bullet too! LOOK IF THE 1 BULLET SAVES YOUR GAME AND YOU DONT HAVE TO RETRY THE MAP fjesrahfio4xrfgcjrenfcnerkj

 

its more a preference thing, in matter of time those are equal, in matter of accuracy you can shoot with the shotgun two times and miss the second, while with the super shotgun the two shells are guaranteed to hit or missed. Also the ssg is kinda made for the pinky, since they die with 1 ssg shot.

Edited July 4, 2023 by URROVA

[BerserkerNoir]

Yeah, specially if I am dealing with low tier enemies in separated spaces, no point in wasting 2 shells per zombieman or shotgunners.

[baja blast rd.]

Almost never. I try to avoid ammo conservation by fussy weapon switching because that's one of the least effective ammo conservation methods and doing it interrupts playing flow. Only end up doing it when I'm nervous in FDAs.

 

SSG is regularly > SG/CG as a sniping weapon because I find bullets/shells impossible to run out of in most sets, and weapon switches are slow. So it can easily end up being faster and smoother and safer to SSG that mid-range perched imp (even twice) in the flow of moving around than stop, switch weapon, shoot, switch weapon back, etc.

[baja blast rd.]

 

This map is a good example because a lot of modern maps favor this approach to ammo balancing (there are many more shell boxes around than I pick up so you're never going to run out). And if they don't, well I just run around not killing stuff and never clearing areas one by one, and then suddenly am flush with ammo because 10% more enemies infought than the mapper balanced for. The more linear, cramped dungeon crawl where you have to make every shell count isn't as common anymore, but even when it is, in those maps you're better off learning to be super comfortable with making mid-tiers infight than trying to make every shot count. One rev-HK infight is +8 shells, and doing that a handful of times more than expected in a tightly balanced map adds up in a hurry and saves way more ammo than making every shot count possibly can. (You will also survive better if you're not juggling ammo usage and avoiding damage at the same time.)

 

Another advantage of not using some weapons is that restricting choices lowers the cognitive load of playing because you don't have to juggle so many options in your head. You already know what you're going to do every second so it's way less taxing on your reflexes, attention, etc. so you end up playing way better especially once you're used to doing that. 

 

My experience is that games and skills always have an Obvious Dogma that people tend to gravitate towards at first (full of ideas like "Don't use RL against PE") that seems right, but if you dig a bit deeper the counter-dogma exists and is cooler and more fun and it's neat to realize ideas like that. :P

 

I think the idea that Doom's arsenal is elegant because "(almost) every weapon is useful in some context when you have all weapons" is a game design red herring. That doesn't seem true at all, and weapons are easily obsoleted. (The chaingun is one of the most impervious to obsolescence but a lot because of painstunning, not sniping :P.) But the cooler point anyway is that every weapon has several uses so a skilled gameplay designer can make a map that relies on only two or three weapons feel varied in the texture of its experience, so weapons being obsoleted is not a problem.