Ultimate Doom "In Name Only" - On IDgames

[Firedust]

57 minutes ago, dobu gabu maru said:

By the way, what do you mean by the regular ending is easy? Can you explain your method?

 

 

Don't lower every pillar with the cells, so you can hide behind them.

Get the masterminds to infight (there are two pairs that are effectively lined up), leaving you with only three to fight, two of which are wounded.

[Magnusblitz]

E1M9: Military Base - Matt Powell (Cannonball)

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 3/4

Another new one for me. This one has what I think of as "modern" abstract Doom design, with an open flowing layout and few doors, but use of staircases/height differences to help break areas up. But there's also some identifiable bits like a barracks, briefing room and target range, giving the level the appropriate theme. The final fight caught me by surprise and was definitely a difficulty spike I wasn't ready for (sadly forgot to quicksave before). All in all, a really good map.

One weird thing - the SUPPORT3 columns on the bridge at sector 354 are lower unpegged, which makes them appear to scroll weird as the lift moves. I'm guessing this was on purpose, but it looks weird to me.

 

 

E1M4: Command Control - Stuart Rynn (Stewboy) - with edits by DJVCardmaster, dobu gabu maru and Cannonball

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 3/6

Ah, I remember this one. I always loved the chunky design of the outer areas of the base, really sells the sense of place of being a command bunker in the side of the rockface. The heavy use of tan textures helps too, without getting bland. Another good map, with not much to criticize.

 

 

E1M5: Phobos Lab - Sincity2100 - with edits by Jawsinspace, dobu gabu maru and Cannonball

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 1/3

After some really solid maps, this one is a bit of a cut below - it's much more orthogonal, with a linear approach, but still a decent map with some interesting set pieces. The opening is pretty tough on UV-pistol start, requiring a mad dash for the chaingun and then a retreat to safety, as ammo is sparse. The sludge pit ambush is good, if maybe a bit too easy - maybe lock in the player a bit longer? The teleport farm at the end is interesting, didn't like it on the first try, but on second try figured to just wait in one of the corner teleports and beat it that way.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Magnusblitz

[plums]

4 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

Also thanks for all the silent door notifications. Before submitting my maps to the RC, I moved all the dummy sectors off to one side of the map for cohesion's sake—big mistake on my part!

Heh, it certainly looks nicer on the automap that way... but at what cost? It's actually better for ZDoom-family compatibility to do that though, because the default in ZDoom is for each piece of moving geometry to make sound regardless of what the actual sectors are/is. BTW the first lift in E1M7 in the mountain is also silent but I didn't report it at the time because it felt appropriate with that whole intro area being semi-secret, but maybe it's better to have it make sound since it's mandatory for progression.

[plums]

8 hours ago, Firedust said:

Don't lower every pillar with the cells, so you can hide behind them.

Get the masterminds to infight (there are two pairs that are effectively lined up), leaving you with only three to fight, two of which are wounded.

Would you be able to show a video or demo? Even with god mode I find it extremely hard to get the SMMs to infight, it seems like they're positioned to make that pretty difficult to happen, so I think I'm missing something. And from the sounds of it dobu might be as well.

 

edit: After trying for a bit I can sometimes make the outside ones fight, getting that to happen with both pairs and not dying in the process seems like it would take a lot of luck or brute-force attempts. For whatever reason the right pair seem a lot more prone to fighting than the left pair.

 

edit2: Aha, you're playing with GZDoom or another port that lets you correct the way hitscan checks are done against large monsters right? Yeah it's very easy to get them to infight this way.

Edited August 6, 2023 by plums

[Firedust]

4 hours ago, plums said:

edit2: Aha, you're playing with GZDoom or another port that lets you correct the way hitscan checks are done against large monsters right? Yeah it's very easy to get them to infight this way.

Yes, GZDoom!

For a second you had me thinking I got extremely lucky! I legitimately didn't know hitscan attacks behave differently in different sourceports. Guess you learn something new every day!

[plums]

4 minutes ago, Firedust said:

I legitimately didn't know hitscan attacks behave differently in different sourceports.

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Flawed_collision_detection

 

In ZDoom ports the compatibility option is called "Use doom code for hitscan checks," it's off by default, turn it on and you'll see it's a lot harder to get the spiders to fight. Woof also offers a similar option ("improved hit detection," defaults to off), don't know about other ports but most don't. It also makes it easier to hit things with melee attacks, especially large monsters -- chainsawing a manc or arachnotron is relatively easy in GZDoom as long as that option is off, but really hard otherwise, because of the shortcuts Doom originally took for calculating monsters' areas.

[Magnusblitz]

10 hours ago, plums said:

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Flawed_collision_detection

 

In ZDoom ports the compatibility option is called "Use doom code for hitscan checks," it's off by default, turn it on and you'll see it's a lot harder to get the spiders to fight. Woof also offers a similar option ("improved hit detection," defaults to off), don't know about other ports but most don't. It also makes it easier to hit things with melee attacks, especially large monsters -- chainsawing a manc or arachnotron is relatively easy in GZDoom as long as that option is off, but really hard otherwise, because of the shortcuts Doom originally took for calculating monsters' areas.

 

Huh interesting, I knew about the hit detection problem with melee hits but never knew it also affected ranged hitscan and made it difficult for spiders to infight. Learn something new every day...

 

E1M6: Central Processing - Cannonball

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 3/5

Not much to say about this one, another very solid Cannonball map. I really liked the caco/imp lock-in fight in the western area.
 

 

 

E1M7: Computer Station - dobu gabu maru

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 2/2*

Oh boy, new dobu map...

Definitely knocked it out of the park, especially visually/thematically. I think the abstract nature of Doom makes it creepier here, as it wasn't ever clear to me whether it was supposed to just be a man-made huge computer station, or something like a computer station that got demonically influenced and replicated out of control, as there are points where it feels like you're inside a gargantuan machine (even before the obviously "inside the code" blue parts later on). The E1M1 homage was fun, though the first time around I soft-locked myself with a bad quicksave as I think I was spending too much time looking at the visuals and let my health get too low, heh.

As for the two secrets, I found them without cheating (my list here is usually how many I can find naturally searching before opening up Doom Builder and finding the missing ones) but I did need to use god mode to solve the puzzles before dying. I'm assuming the eastern one (pentagram/switches) is just meant to be brute-forced to figure out which switches are needed; the western one (rising/lowering stairs) takes a bit of lateral thinking but also some experimentation to figure out which switch/lines do what, so having to do so while getting health chipped away is stressful. Not really something that could be changed though. It does seem the only reward is a berserk pack, so, the real reward is the pride of figuring it out.

 

 

E1M8: Phobos Anomaly - Armaetus - with edits by Cannonball

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 5/5

Been awhile since I've played this one, so I can't remember exactly what's been changed but my overall feeling is that the edits helped a lot here, the post-teleport section works a lot better. It's also quite a bit of a difficulty spike as it's very easy to get cornered by the barons in the small area, most of the challenge here is just finding a spot you can safely use the rockets from since the cell ammo is somewhat limited. I think this one is in a good place now.

 

Overall E1 is very good, lots of very solid maps with one 'wow' map (E1M7), and even the roughest ones (E1M1, E1M5) are still decent. I think the only thing that really needs fixing still is the end of E1M1.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Magnusblitz

[Caleb13]

Well well well, looks like UDINO made it out of development hell!

 

The maps are a mixed bag as expected, some of the gimmicks were clever, some were tedious, some both. I played RC2 on UV in GZdoom 4.10.0 and I noticed some problems. I know some are caused by this port, but here they are anyway:

 

E1M5: sector 133 is tagged 7, but there is no linedef to activate it.

 

E1M6: sector 355 is still damaging after you rise it again.

 

E2M3: I think lindefs 3317 etc. shouldn't block monsters, it looks odd that cacos can't fly over them.

 

E2M8: in GZdoom, about 30 monsters can't teleport out of 2 parts of closet sector 1161. It happens because teleport linedefs are too close to the walls.

 

E3M2: sectors 200 etc. shouldn't be damaging. Also, it feels odd that shallow acid pits in front of the main entrance are inescapable. And what's the deal with the soulsphere in the acid path in the south? It's just a deathtrap?

 

E3M3: why radsuits in sector 312 become inacessible after you get the blue key?

 

E3M7: the transparent platforming puzzle around berserk doesn't work properly in GZdoom. I can walk over one square, but then I get stuck at the edge of the next. Then I either fall or I'm suddenly "teleported" to the bottom of the black pit.

 

E4M2: there seems to be no way to get armor bonuses in sector 45.

 

E4M4: Another GZdoom-specific problem, 100% kills is impossible because of 5 lost souls in east monsters closets. I know they trigger the lifts, but maybe it could be done some other way?

Edited August 6, 2023 by Caleb13

[plums]

8 hours ago, Magnusblitz said:

Huh interesting, I knew about the hit detection problem with melee hits but never knew it also affected ranged hitscan and made it difficult for spiders to infight. Learn something new every day...

In normal circumstances it wouldn't affect spiderdemon infighting much at all. But correcting the hit detection effectively increases the radius of the monsters' hitboxes, so dobu's careful placement of the spiders in E4M8, so that they're as close as can be without any real chance of infighting, gets completely undone.

 

A much more commonly-seen side effect of correcting hit detection is that it's way easier to 1-shot BFG a spiderdemon point-blank, because all the BFG tracers will always connect, so you just need a bit of luck in how much damage they all do.

[Caleb13]

Oh, I almost forgot, GZdoom reports missing textures in some maps.

Spoiler

 

E2M8 - Tower of Babel

Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 17
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 86
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 89
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 93
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 100
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 133
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 153
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 169
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 309
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 481
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 553
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 633
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 688
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 689
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 704
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 718
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 1593
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 3906
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 3908
Unknown bottom texture 'ROCK13' on first side of linedef 4177

 

----------------------------------------

E3M8 - Dis

Unknown bottom texture '-SP_ROCK' on second side of linedef 3487
Unknown bottom texture '-SP_ROCK' on second side of linedef 3488
Unknown bottom texture '-SP_ROCK' on second side of linedef 3489
Unknown bottom texture '-SP_ROCK' on second side of linedef 3537
Unknown bottom texture '-SP_ROCK' on second side of linedef 3538

 

----------------------------------------

E4M2 - Perfect Hatred

Unknown bottom texture 'METALRAI' on second side of linedef 257
Unknown bottom texture 'WINDOW3A' on second side of linedef 1117
Unknown bottom texture 'WINDOW3A' on second side of linedef 1122
Unknown bottom texture 'WINDOW3A' on second side of linedef 1161
Unknown bottom texture 'WINDOW3A' on second side of linedef 1171
Unknown top texture 'METALRAI' on first side of linedef 2055

 

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Caleb13

[erzboesewicht]

Comments on E3 (UV, pistol starts, with saves, RC2):

 

Spoiler

 

E3M1: Hell Keep - JMickle - with edits by Cannonball - A small entryway-style map with a infighting-themed main arena and a switch hunt as a build up. While the map is one of the easier ones in a long stretch and can appear a bit underwhelming due to its shortness, there is some pressure from the start on, and the infighting combo seemed well put together. 7/10

E3M2: Slough of Despair - Benjogami - Nice idea with these little "wood cabins", good atmosphere. Much less annoying than the original, and has good pacing: hitscanner hell at the start, then small-ish setpieces, then main big fight with barons & cacos & low-tier supporters. Less difficult than I thought considering the author, above all if you abuse infighting a bit -- then you'll have enough rockets to clear the last fight fastly. I didn't find the secret chain leading to the berserk and the plasma rifle. What I found in contrast is a long damaging corridor which exists probably only to troll 100% items collectors. Gave me some "Down the Drain" feeling :) 9/10

E3M3: Pandemonium - Darryl Steffan (dobu gabu maru) - The start was a bit underwhelming, flat and confusing, although there was constant pressure due to the relatively low health/ammo and the restriction to the chaingun. But once the main ideas of the map show up, it gets much better. I particularly loved the enormous arena where the main protagonists are ... not monsters. The other setpieces were also quite creative, above all the spiced-up version of E1M8. Had a bit Metroidvania character because the radsuits you first fight for are almost mandatory. 9/10

E3M4: House of Pain - Walter Confalonieri - with edits by dobu gabu maru. Another one with a quite literal interpretation of the map title, and a good one. A house full of traps, crushers, floors turning damaging, goodies disappearing if you take them too slowly, and cut escape paths. And of course barons in close quarters. Very appropiately placed as a short map after the monster E3M3. 9/10

E3M5: Unholy Cathedral - Corsair - with edits by dobu gabu maru - Grand architecture, feels at first like an near-empty 1994 map with modern detailing, but then the reason for the size becomes obvious. The main setpiece (with 80% or so of the monster population) is the biggest fight so far, close in difficulty to the E2M4 baron fight, but more forgiving because you can escape relatively early and once you access the upper level it becomes much easier. Some minor setpieces with reduced space complete the map. I think the fight is competently built but nothing really special. The main virtue of this map is clearly its architecture. 7/10

E3M6: Mt. Erebus - Nine Inch Heels - A mix of platforming and difficult combat puzzles with space reduction. Berserk fight can be partly cheesed if you go for the rockets first and then jump into a teleporter - the drawback is obviously that you have to punch the baron. The fight behind the blue bars is difficult but really cool, I liked the detail of the "curve" in the center, preventing infighting happening too fast. The platforming was awkward, did I write that I suck at that? I had to savescum like a boss :) The rest felt much easier, but I kinda cheesed the baron/imp fight too hiding in the entrance section, and could lure several barons into infighting the cyb weakening it for me so the "plasma scavening" wasn't necessary. I love that this fight gives you various options (rockets, platforming, infighting, and combinations). Creative concept map, the most difficult one so far. 10/10

E3M7: Limbo - Matt Powell (Cannonball) - A big map where there's little incidental combat, but you have to beat mid to large setpieces to progress. Quite "Sunlust meets Doom 1", although a little less combat-puzzly. In general I like the map's concept, and at least one of the secrets (where you jump to a lower part of the starting area) is awesome. There is however some constructive criticism I have. First, the platforming part in the blue key area is a bit awkward. It's ok to require it once as it's an optional area, but if you're teleported into the area again (there are two different teleporters), then you have to repeat that straferun. Maybe provide a teleporter once you have beaten it once? Then, three of the fights (BK main fight, YK fight and final fight) share a similar element making them a bit same-y: cacos are used as an infinite height barrier to make circlestrafing difficult. Maybe it's difficult to create variety with the limited Doom 1 monsters, but I'd loved at least if the cacos in one of these fights came from all sides or so. Also the ground forces being homogeneous blocks is quite similar in these fights, above all in BK and final. The fight after the yellow door in contrast is quite good. The YK can be grabbed early if you jump from the wall-lift near it, which I think is intended as a shortcut. Bug: Three cacos activated by tag 22 in the YK fight failed to spawn, it seems the closet is so tight that one can block the others. Anyway good map, 8/10 in its current state, perhaps still with room for improvement.

E3M8: Dis - Nine Inch Heels - An interesting, creative take on a boss map. I think it's a bit of an "iOS for Doom 1", but the cycle run you have to perform (not too fast, but if you're too slow you run in an immense caco cloud) adds a whole new element to it. I personally think the map gives you enough hints to see what you've to do in the switch area. Maybe the switch to expose the boss could be a bit larger, but the cybie has to stay there on UV :) (About HMP and lower I agree with others that this cybie is a bit painful there.) I didn't even bother with the secret as I'm only able to do beginner-style RJ's :). Perhaps later in my life, seems a nice challenge once my skills improve. 10/10 for originality.

E3M9: Warrens - Darryl Steffan (dobu gabu maru) - This may be the least ambitious secret map so far, but is not bad at all. A flat indoor complex where you're chased by a cyberdemon and plenty of barons, apart from low-tiers and a couple of cacos. There's not much ammo (most are rockets) and health is at least not super-abundant, so its advantageous to lure at least some barons to infight with cybie, without getting surrounded. Feels a bit like a light version of Valiant's "Popes of Roam". 8/10

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by erzboesewicht

[cannonball]

Regarding the blue key issue for E3M7, all I can say is that it has broken again between me testing the map prior to RC2 and it actually being released. It should just be a fairly easy trek between the two sections and not be the horrid experience I have now found out about (and experience myself). So apologies to both @erzboesewicht and @Caleb for that. This will be fixed in some form for the final release.

I might tweak the first section of the blue key fight because you are right, a couple of fights are a little repetitive (I am not so worried about the mainline progression though). The secret fight could have something a little bit different to mix things up.

[erzboesewicht]

@cannonball For me, the E3M7 berserk section only worked with a quite precise (SR40) straferun. That's still ok for me, but the block at the start gets in the way if its intended in this form, and the curve at the end requires more precision I would expect in such a section, at least if it's intended to be "quite easy" like you wrote (as the dark pit seems to be inescapable and you're inmediately attacked by a cybie once you've passed). I've even thought about if the "Limbo" concept including a bit of "sadism", and then it would be ok again, but then I'd appreciate a teleporter for the case if you stumble again into this section when secret hunting ;) (No need to apologize though, the map is cool anyway).

[slowfade]

I played this some weeks ago in two hours-long sessions. One of the best wads I've played so far. My fav niche: Doom 1 maps in combat style with Doom 1 monsters, limit-removing and extremely detailed with stock-textures, sprawling in size. Granted, the sheer scale of it was a bit too much with two playings, but I couldn't stop. I have to say my favorites were the dobu gabu maru maps, the fever-dream style is off the scale in those ones, just amazing! I don't think there was a single weak map in the entire set. I'm definitely playing this one again but in smaller portions. You don't often see a set like this, congratulations to the team.

 

Yeah, I too had problems in that e3 map with the lowering (or rising? can't remember) floors where one had to run upwards and press switches to open doors and then get to next platform. But I play keyboard-only (unless strolling) and thus I'm slower in turning and weaker in precision. Eventually I clipped through.

[Magnusblitz]

Thoughts on Episode 2:

 

E2M1: Deimos Anomaly - PedroVC - with edits by dobu gabu maru

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 1/2

A bit of a weird opening that seems fully hellish, though the rest of the level proves to be more of that Deimos-style tech/hell mix. There's a few exit-only teleport pads around that I felt should maybe be white, so when you find a red one, you know it works - I was a little miffed to teleport out of the first section and then find out I was cut off from returning, though you can go back at the very end so it's not a huge deal.

E2M2: Containment Area - Riderr3

 

Does it fit the title: Eh, kinda
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 5/5 secrets

This one is a VERY IWAD-ish map. That's fine, but it also means it doesn't stick out too much. The INO part is kinda weak, there's some toxic sludge containers here and there that I suppose could qualify as "containment areas" but it doesn't really stand out in any memorable way especially since a bunch of the other techbase maps have a lot of the same.

E2M3: Refinery - DJVCardmaster - with edits by Jawsinspace and Cannonball

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 2/7 secrets

I admit by this point I was kinda worn out by old-school techbases, but as this one goes on it actually turns out to be quite fun... lots of monster meat, and lots of rockets to let loose with. Sludge and radsuits are also used in a fairly large way too.

E2M4: Deimos Lab - Scifista42 - with edits by dobu gabu maru

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes*
Secrets found without cheating: 1/4 secrets

I expected this map might be the first one that would force me down to HMP, as I don't think I was able to beat either of the lock-in fights when I first played this years ago, but surprisingly I was able to beat them both this time on the second try. Maybe it's been nerfed/balanced since then, or maybe I just got lucky. I was NOT able to figure out how to grab the last secret in the exit room - I assume it's possible, I just couldn't figure it out.

 

E2M5: Command Center - Cyriak Harris (Mouldy)

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 1/4 secrets

I've always thought of E1M4 and E2M5 as spiritual brothers based off the name, so I'm glad to see that somewhat be the case here, as this map has the same sort of chunky bunker architecture that I liked in E1M4. Good solid level, with a relatively small footprint but plenty of monsters to fill it up. The secret exit has some nice visuals.

 

E2M9: Fortress of Mystery - Dreadopp - with edits by dobu gabu maru

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 0/1 secret

An excellent fit for the INO theme here, one of my favorites in that regard. Seems simple at first but then the weird stuff starts piling up. I was proceeding through the level without much problem, the first thing that stumped me for a bit was the wood 'bulge' in the south, of all things. After that, not much trouble, except for the BFG secret itself - just couldn't find the switches for the backpack and the plasma gun. I see there's two separate puzzle sections, differing by difficulty, I'm curious what the difference is - just some extra doodads?

E2M6: Halls of the Damned - PedroVC - with edits by dobu gabu maru

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 1/4 secrets

Good solid map, looks great and plays great. Might have some of the most annoying lost souls ever, which alone fits the theme. :)

 

E2M7: Spawning Vats - General Rainbow Bacon - with edits by dobu gabu maru

 

Does it fit the title: Sorta
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 2/7 secrets

I gotta admit, I found this map to be pretty ugly, and not very interesting... and until the last section, didn't really seem to live up to the name at all. I still think it kinda misses the mark, and a lot more could've been done with that name, but it is what it is at this point I suppose.

 

E2M8: Tower of Babel - Alex Scott (Scotty)

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes* (well, maybe not kills, given the ending)
Secrets found without cheating: 1/3 secrets

Happily this one gives a really cool tower visual to close things out, and the gameplay is pretty good too - rough but nothing too strenuous. The last fight is a decent whirl on a cyberdemon fight.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Magnusblitz

[Magnusblitz]

Episode 3:

E3M1: Hell Keep - JMickle - with edits by Cannonball

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes (though I had to shotgun the cyber)
Secrets found without cheating: 1/1

Short and sweet opener. Points for the vista to the west, that really helps sell the idea of being a keep tower as part of a larger castle (as well as what I assume are cannonball's edits primarily around the front face of the keep, as it looks a lot better than the one in Alpha 5).

E3M2: Slough of Despair - Benjogami

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes, begrudgingly
Secrets found without cheating: 0/4 (ouch)

Good map, it has one main area but uses it well. The dilapidated structures work well without feeling too doomcute. Can be a bit rough in areas (mostly due to resource starvation) but never really felt unfair. Except for the soulsphere hidden away behind the start which feels like it's just there to fuck with maxxers.

E3M3: Pandemonium - Darryl Steffan (dobu gabu maru)

 

Does it fit the title: Yes?
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 6/6*

Absolutely amazing map. Dobu maps usually are, but sometimes the visuals can be a bit too busy (E1M7 for example, looks impressive but overwhelmingly so in spots) or gameplay a bit crazy. This one really clicked with me, though.

My main complaint was going to be the lack of radsuits for exploration - especially once I discovered, as @Caleb13 mentioned, the ones in sector 312 become inaccessible, as I had purposely been saving those to explore the north later. But, lo and behold, the northern area dries up at the end of the level, which is a really good move and let me finish my secret hunting. The "bullet hell" portion in the west works great and really stands out as memorable.

My one complaint is for the 'switch' that lowers the compmap secret, in that it doesn't make a noise or change visually, and thus it's hard to know what it does, or if it does anything at all (hence the asterisk on secrets, once I confirmed it did actually do something, I found the rest no problem). Maybe add a small sector behind it in the wall that can also move down, so the player at least has a audio indicator something actually happened?

E3M4: House of Pain - Walter Confalonieri - with edits by dobu gabu maru

 

Does it fit the title: Yes

Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 2/2

The design of this is pretty much exactly what I'd expect given the prompt, a literal house with lots of painful traps. In this respect, it starts off great, but after awhile it started to get a bit predictable and repetitive, as there's never really much anything else besides the red ceiling crushers and occasional trap door. Needed something else here and there IMO, but it gets the job done.

E3M5: Unholy Cathedral - Corsair - with edits by dobu gabu maru

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 2/3

Like some others, I was initially worried this one was overly large in a 90s sort of way, but given that the cathedral is essentially a giant arena fight, it mostly works (having to clear out some imps/barons on the sides was a bit boring). Looks pretty nice, and the music choice with the organ is spot-on and really sells it.

 

E3M6: Mt. Erebus - Nine Inch Heels

 

Does it fit the title: Yes

Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes, probably
Secrets found without cheating: 1/1

Alright, this is going to be the map that'll force me to HMP!... Except, no, I was actually able to beat this on UV (albeit after many, many tries). I'm not sure how much this has changed since I first played this 4 years ago (and couldn't even beat on HMP), but maybe that's the difference? I did end up leaving the first couple barons by the RL behind, and also ran from the cyberdemon on the plasma gun ambush (this one took me awhile, until I finally remembered you can cheese it by having the barons insta-raise into cyber rockets). The green torch platform section took me a ton of tries (even with a savescum or two in the middle) but was finally able to beat it, somehow. The rest of the map was fairly straightforward. I did end up leaving a handful of monsters behind (such as the aforementioned barons and cyber, as well as several imps in the island-sinking portion). Visually and thematically impressive, almost goes without saying. This one is still a huge difficulty spike but I think it might actually be reasonable now?

E3M9: Warrens - Darryl Steffan (dobu gabu maru)

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 2/3

Played this one before, for some reason I remember it being bigger? But I loaded up an alpha version and it was very much the same, so I guess I'm just misremembering... also maybe an indicator of how well the 'warren' really makes you feel hunted on pistol start. It's actually probably a good thing this one is on the smaller side to help break up the E3M6-7-8 triad. Another good map.

E3M7: Limbo - Matt Powell (Cannonball)

 

Does it fit the title: Yes
Able to 100% kills and secrets? Yes
Secrets found without cheating: 5/5

Surprisingly I was able to eventually beat this one on UV as well, though I came close to giving up a few times. The fight that gave me the most trouble was actually the one at the end, but I kept trying since the comments here didn't seem to flag it as all that difficult, so I figured it was just me approaching it wrong or sucking at it or something. Secrets were fun to hunt for (especially the red key section entrance) though the rewards aren't much. I will say though, this one may have burnt me out on the Doom 1 bestiary, I don't want to see another caco swam or baron/cyber horde again. After I reached the exit and went back to find the blue and red keys I started groaning every time I heard another cyberdemon announce his presence. Not much you can do with the limited monster variety, I know. This is another one that looks visually amazing, especially the ending, I just love the look of those walls sliding down.

One note, some of the textures on the columns casting shadows in the western area are misaligned (linedefs 6000 and 6163 for example).

E3M8: Dis - Nine Inch Heels

 

This one, I do not have it in me to try again.

Remains to be seen what E4 holds, but E3 definitely is the stand out episode so far, though that maybe should be expected from the hellish themed names instead of all the techbase stuff. Lots of visually stunning maps. I know the difficulty spike in the last three maps will be controversial, but I actually do think 6 and 7 are fine at this point.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Magnusblitz

[cannonball]

Cheers for the feedback @Magnusblitz I don’t think E4 will be as tough (once you know what you need to do).

So potential map updates or in particular regarding those not being done by myself/dobu

 

@Steve D are we still expecting any further tweaks to your maps or are you done?

 

@General Rainbow Bacon Are you still planning to do further work on E2M7? I may take a look to see if there is anything simple that can be done to carry the first half of the map further than it currently does (in terms of combat). I think whatever this map might need some tweaking still.

 

@Nine Inch Heels any thoughts regarding your maps? I think E3M6 might just need a couple of monsters removed/swapped for

lesser threat on HMP and UV/HNTR are fine. E3M8 seems to be the one that might need a few concessions just to make it less polarising (Making the switches to lower the shooting platform easier to hit for one example).

 

The hope is that the next RC will be close to being the final/idgames one, well that is the plan at least. So I am hoping we can get everything right this time (well unless I break something… again).

[Nine Inch Heels]

9 hours ago, cannonball said:

E3M8 seems to be the one that might need a few concessions just to make it less polarising (Making the switches to lower the shooting platform easier to hit for one example).

I've got an idea for that issue in particular, and some adjustments to E3M6 on HMP won't be too difficult to do. Only problem is I'll not get around to doing much of anything until the weekend, but I should be able to take care of most points on the list, if not all of them.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Nine Inch Heels

[grothendieck1453]

While playing E3M3, I noticed a tiny texture misalignment where linedefs 912 and 271 meet (see screenshot in spoiler).

Spoiler

 

[General Rainbow Bacon]

I'll take a look at it and see if there's anything I can do to make the gameplay a little more interesting without adding areas.  I don't really want to do that.  I'll have another version for you by later today or tomorrow.

 

E: I'll try not to make it A LOT more dangerous, but you've played some of my doom 2 maps...

Edited August 14, 2023 by General Rainbow Bacon

[dobu gabu maru]

33 minutes ago, General Rainbow Bacon said:

I'll take a look at it and see if there's anything I can do to make the gameplay a little more interesting without adding areas.

 

For the record, I think the map is fine as is (same with E1M2). Folks are already going to feel like it's a "love it or hate it" map due to its eccentric visuals, and I'm not sure peppering the map with a bunch of sergeants is going to fix any major complaints.

 

21 hours ago, Magnusblitz said:

I see there's two separate puzzle sections, differing by difficulty, I'm curious what the difference is - just some extra doodads?

Yup, there are "things" placed on skills 2 & 3 to make the puzzle a little easier (for instance, the "light" portion now has an actual light in it). I needed two different separate rooms for each because the toxic barrel on skills 2 & 3 needed to be invulnerable, which meant raising the floor so the player can't shoot it.

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by dobu gabu maru

[General Rainbow Bacon]

I played through it and I think most of it's fine.  I think it needs more cacos though, and a few extra barons in choice spots.  The final fight is a little easy right now since it's all just imps basically.  I'll post up a version with more nasty traps and if you don't like them, just go with the version already there.

 

E: Maybe the final fight needs two waves?  One of imps and the other of cacos.  Both monster types seem to scream that they'd both make up most of the monsters in a map with the title "Spawning Vats".

 

E2: On second thought, let's just leave it alone.  It's a good map.  If people think it's a turd, they can show us how it's done in their "Spawning Vats"

Edited August 14, 2023 by General Rainbow Bacon

[plums]

@General Rainbow Bacon I think the final fight is the strongest point of the map. The start is good too, there's just kind of a lull in between where you're mainly fighting things from the front. I certainly wouldn't call it a turd though, and I don't see an easy way to improve things without some serious overhauling. So you're probably right that it's best left alone. Maybe I was just expecting some cyberdemons to come out of nowhere or something, given that you made it :)

[General Rainbow Bacon]

Yeah, lol.  I do that in maps don't I.  It's a pity I didn't have arch-viles, revenants and chaingunners available, then you guys would have gotten a real crazy one.  Maybe if we go completely crazy the next INO should be "Ultimate Doom (if it were Doom 2) In Name Only".  

[cannonball]

8 hours ago, General Rainbow Bacon said:

I played through it and I think most of it's fine.  I think it needs more cacos though, and a few extra barons in choice spots.  The final fight is a little easy right now since it's all just imps basically.  I'll post up a version with more nasty traps and if you don't like them, just go with the version already there.

 

E: Maybe the final fight needs two waves?  One of imps and the other of cacos.  Both monster types seem to scream that they'd both make up most of the monsters in a map with the title "Spawning Vats".

 

E2: On second thought, let's just leave it alone.  It's a good map.  If people think it's a turd, they can show us how it's done in their "Spawning Vats"

I played through the map this morning, a couple of thoughts

1) The area that consists of the blue key/ blue door and yellow door - I think this could do with a tidy up, not just to make the visuals a little cleaner but to also help with navigation, I also suspect that the baron count in this section could be dropped a little as they offered little in terms of threat (replaced by a few more weaker monsters).

 

2) The lowering floor that reveals the location of the yellow key - the initial fight could be meaner (if balanced with more rockets), I can’t recall if there is space on the other side of the corridor to house a closet to flush the player into the yellow key area (but this could be utilised to make the drop in harder). Again a few touches could be made visually in the area too (eg light given off by the slime vats etc), though beyond the key room the rest of the area is fine. It may be worth reconsidering the moment when the escape route  to the blue key area is opened up (possibly until after or around the time of the big slime vat fight), this is more again for navigation as the player may be wrongly drawn into the wrong part of the map for progression.
 

I don’t know if anyone agrees, but I don’t think these are major changes, combat wise it is streamlining the earlier incidental combat and offering a little more bite before the main event so to speak. In terms of implementation if there is agreement, I am happy to do this myself (should be an evening’s worth of work here) or obviously these changes can be done on your end :)

Edited August 15, 2023 by cannonball

[General Rainbow Bacon]

@cannonball

Yeah I was thinking of making the YK fight meaner too.  So let's do that for sure.  I think just adding some barons and cacos would do fine. 

 

I was thinking adding some cacos to the blue door area might be good too since that's a sort of "meh" fight right now too. 

 

Your point on the blue door/blue key area I also agree with, either taking out the barons for lesser enemies or adding more barons for more of a threat.  

 

I was also thinking some of the roaming monsters in the map could be taken out and have some of them teleport in behind the player after they access important areas too.  

 

If you have a clear idea of how to fix some of these things just go ahead and do it.  For the fixes that are more ambiguous, I'll look at them tonight.

[dobu gabu maru]

12 hours ago, cannonball said:

I am happy to do this myself

 

Go for it. Will be yet another map we share credits on!

 

As for me, I should have an "improved" version of E4M7 before the end of the week. Longer maps like this are a pain in the ass to playtest ;_;

[Dreadopp]

A bit of a late response at this point, but nevertheless;

On 7/25/2023 at 5:02 AM, plums said:

E2M9 @Dreadopp I enjoyed it overall but good call on making this a secret map...

A lot of the layout I originally made ~9 years ago is still there, but yeah, as was pointed out already, dobu really upped the aforementioned zany factor. Does it look and feel experimental? Probably for some people. Will it be for everyone? No, but I can totally appreciate the direction it has gone since the original version of the map I submitted. There is a lot more exploration, investigation, and weirdness now, which makes sense with the map's title. I think knowing what I know now about what's possible to pull off, especially with project being limit removing instead of vanilla, the original map would probably have turned out quite a bit differently.

 

Regardless, thanks again for your edits, dobu! And thanks for that updated sky texture as well, plums. I'm happy to see that this project is almost fully completed. Kudos to everyone involved in making that happen.

[Steve D]

@cannonball Here are even moar updates to E4M2! 

 

I can't seem to escape this map. :D These edits fix the toxic blood areas that @Ravendesk uncovered.

 

On the question of further updates, I think E1M2 should stay as-is. There needs to be at least one easy map in E1, after all. ;) I do have some ideas for E4M2, that are IMO not necessary but might be worthwhile. I'll let you decide, CB. The first idea is to add more rockets, as Ravendesk wanted. This has been a struggle throughout the map's history. I want Cacos to bully the player into running away in search of more ammo/better weapons -- and get themselves in more trouble as a result -- and a little ammo starvation works. However, if people end up hating the map, that might not be a good thing. ;) The second idea is to add a little more hate and discontent with some sort of lava source creating a spiderweb of lava streaks in the big blood pool near the PG. I used to have floating spots of lava there, but IMO they were ugly, so I removed them. However, if thin streaks of interconnected lava created a spiderweb, that might look kinda cool, and it might also cause occasional damage to the player. Then again, players might be relieved to let things stand as they are, since they have a lot to worry about in that area without having to take lava damage as well. As for E4M6, the only thing I can think of is turning some of the lines around the YK pylon into Block Monsters, so players don't get infinite-talled while leaping for the key. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Steve D

[cannonball]

@Steve D Feel free to make further edits to E4M2 - it is worth giving those ideas a spin.

One other possible suggestion - though this will definitely be controversial….

 

Spoiler

Make the regular exit a death exit - The rationale is two fold - First it epitomises the map name by pouring extra scorn, secondly it enforced a pistol start on continuous players unless they go through E4M9. That said this might be a step too far for many and certainly something to tread carefully about.