Could the Sega CD have run Doom ?

[Marmiteman02]

It would have been cut down of course. But the extra space on the Disk could probably have run the game to some reasonable extent I presume ?

[Jayextee]

That's not how it works.

A case could've been made for the console's scaling and rotation abilities to be utilised in rendering DOOM's walls and floors, but for the relative lack of CPU power the machine has; it'd choke something fierce. Probably. I'm not the most technically-minded person out there.

[Individualised]

Depends what you mean by "run" and what you mean by "Doom". There's a native port of the actual Doom codebase to the base Mega Drive but it runs at like 1 frame per 2 seconds. However, Doom-style engines have been done on the Mega Drive before at playable speeds:

So while a port may be out of the question, a from the ground up remake similar to SNES Doom would be feasible using an engine like this. It may even be possible to achieve higher speeds than this using the Sega CD's co-processor.

[Herr Dethnout]

Short answer: Yes

Long Answer: Yes but probably it will look worse than the SNES version due the how the genesis handles palettes (Keep in mind, the CD doesn't have the graphic enhancements like the 32x, so it will look exactly like a bare Mega Drive game), but yeah, even the bare Mega Drive can handle simple 3D very decent (Take Outrun 2019 and the AKIRA prototype as example)

[Individualised]

54 minutes ago, Herr Dethnout said:

Short answer: Yes

Long Answer: Yes but probably it will look worse than the SNES version due the how the genesis handles palettes (Keep in mind, the CD doesn't have the graphic enhancements like the 32x, so it will look exactly like a bare Mega Drive game), but yeah, even the bare Mega Drive can handle simple 3D very decent (Take Outrun 2019 and the AKIRA prototype as example)

The Akira prototype's so-called "3D" section is a image-based dungeon crawler style thing. Not even a Wolfenstein-style engine, it's not 3D at all, just pre-rendered images of a 3D background, so I don't see how this is relevant here. Outrun 2019 doesn't have any 3D as far as I can tell but I'm not familiar with that game.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Individualised

[Herr Dethnout]

11 minutes ago, Individualised said:

The Akira prototype's 3D section is a image-based dungeon crawler style thing. Not even a Wolfenstein-style engine, it's not 3D at all, just images, so I don't see how this is relevant here. Outrun 2019 doesn't have any 3D as far as I can tell but I'm not familiar with that game.

Oh right, I was remember that section was actual 3D.

But my point stills, The Adventures of Batman & Robin, and Zero Tolerance, the later being the closest to a Doom on a bare Mega Drive.

Outrun 2019 in fact has some 3d, but a simpler one (the start tunnel is a example)

[Individualised]

8 hours ago, Herr Dethnout said:

Outrun 2019 in fact has some 3d, but a simpler one (the start tunnel is a example)

It's not 3D, there's no 3D calculations going on, so it doesn't really matter for a Doom port.

[Kyle07]

There are racing games on the Genesis with 3D engines I think. The YouTube channel VCDECIDE showed recently some comparisons, where it was described in the subtitles 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Kyle07

[RataUnderground]

Well, some Brazilians back in the day managed to sneak in an illegal version of Duke Nukem 3D xD. Quite impressive actually.
 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by RataUnderground

[Herr Dethnout]

1 hour ago, RataUnderground said:

Well, some Brazilians back in the day managed to sneak in an illegal version of Duke Nukem 3D xD. Quite impressive actually.
 

 

Wait, is unlicensed?!

 

I was thinking like the Master System's SF2 Port (Also Made by Tec-Toy) that iirc they got a license from CAPCOM to make it. lol

[Blzut3]

20 hours ago, Herr Dethnout said:

(Keep in mind, the CD doesn't have the graphic enhancements like the 32x, so it will look exactly like a bare Mega Drive game),

Technically it does have an extra graphics chip, although I don't know if its features would be useful for Doom.  More importantly though the Sega CD does add a second higher clocked CPU which I would think would definitely allow the game to run better than the bare system.  I'm not familiar enough with the architecture to know what the gotchas are though.

[Individualised]

2 hours ago, RataUnderground said:

Well, some Brazilians back in the day managed to sneak in an illegal version of Duke Nukem 3D xD. Quite impressive actually.
 

 

This game was produced under the intentions of being officially licenced, however the legal situation behind it is a bit complicated which is why you may see some people (including 3D Realms themselves) refer to it as being unofficial. It's not a bootleg though.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Individualised

[Herr Dethnout]

1 hour ago, Blzut3 said:

Technically it does have an extra graphics chip, although I don't know if its features would be useful for Doom.  More importantly though the Sega CD does add a second higher clocked CPU which I would think would definitely allow the game to run better than the bare system.  I'm not familiar enough with the architecture to know what the gotchas are though.

It actually would be really helpful, due that extra chip making the rotations on zooming (basically a Mode 7 but in Mega Drive), but it doesn't give a enhanced palette like the 32x as it still uses the Mega Drive's 4 palettes of 16 colors each.

Another thing is that the Mega CD still depends on the Mega Drive specs to display the data, this page gives a more or less example on how Mega CD hardware works.

 

The general structure of Sega CD games seems to be the following:
two 68k programs run at the same time. One on the SCD´s 68k, the
other on the Genesis´ 68k. But only the Genesis 68k has access to the
VDP and sound registers of the Genesis soundchip. That leaves only
three tasks for the SCD´s 68k:

 1) accessing the CD drive,
 2) accessing the custom chips and
 3) computing.

The SCD´s 68k (or the special graphics chip) for example does all
the sprite/playfield zooming and rotation in games like Sonic CD or
Thunderhawk. Then the Genesis 68k simply downloads the pre-calulated
data via the connector port (which is, simply said, "just" a second
cartridge port) and displays it on screen.
  
  I´ll go through one example: let´s imagine we load some bitmap
  graphics from CD in order to display them onscreen. According to
  what you´ve said, we´d need to do the following:

    1) give a load command to load the gfx file into the CD buffer
    2) copy the gfx from the cd buffer to the main RAM (512K?) of
       the CD processor  
    3) maybe rotate/zoom the gfx using the CD graphics chip...
    4) switch main RAM to Genesis CPU
    5) copy gfx data from main RAM to Genesis RAM  
    6) copy gfx data from Genesis RAM to VDP RAM to display it
       onscreen.  

 

[Rudolph]

Were they not games that required both the Sega CD and the 32X?

 

If so, then I assume this could have allowed Doom to have CD-quality music and sound effects.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Rudolph

[Individualised]

9 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Were they not games that required both the Sega CD and the 32X?

 

If so, then I assume this could have allowed Doom to have CD-quality music and sound effects.

Doom 32X Resurrection supports this already

[FecalMystAche]

13 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Were they not games that required both the Sega CD and the 32X?

 

If so, then I assume this could have allowed Doom to have CD-quality music and sound effects.

Yes, there were a number of games that required you to have both addons. I think that 32X port was rushed out the door, so having it as a Sega CD 32X game would have been of little benefit if the development was still rushed as it were, but if it had been given a bit more TLC I think it would’ve worked better. Likely, it would’ve just had CD audio music and been mostly the same as what the 32X was in the end if we’re being realistic, but with more time something more like Doom 32X Resurrection may have been possible.

Edited July 15, 2023 by FecalMystAche

[Herr Dethnout]

15 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Were they not games that required both the Sega CD and the 32X?

 

If so, then I assume this could have allowed Doom to have CD-quality music and sound effects.

Yes, only 6 games are officially labeled as Mega CD 32x games, mostly FMV titles and nothing of real value tbh.

 

8 minutes ago, FecalMystAche said:

Yes, there were a number of games that required you to have both addons. I think that 32X port was rushed out the door, so having it as a Sega CD 32X game would have been of little benefit if the development was still rushed as it were, but if it had been given a bit more TLC I think it would’ve worked better. 

The only benefit would be the CD quality OST... Like... you know... the 3DO version lol

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, Individualised said:

Doom 32X Resurrection supports this already

Really? Then I ought to check it out then!

 

It is just a shame that the 32X did not stick around long enough for a Doom II port.

[Ganimoth]

They barely could fit first doom on cartridge with big cuts, doom 2 would be probably quite unfeasible.

[TasAcri]

14 hours ago, RataUnderground said:

Well, some Brazilians back in the day managed to sneak in an illegal version of Duke Nukem 3D xD. Quite impressive actually.
 

 

 

This has nothing to do with Duke Nukem 3D though. It's closer to a Wolfenstein 3D port with Duke's sprites.

The Sega CD is weaker than a SNES+FX2 Chip, so a DOOM port would be impossible. Unless it was a Wolfenstein 3D port with DOOM's sprites, like many other "DOOM runs on everything" projects.

Edited July 15, 2023 by TasAcri

[Individualised]

11 minutes ago, TasAcri said:

 

This has nothing to do with Duke Nukem 3D though. It's closer to a Wolfenstein 3D port with Duke's sprites.

The Sega CD is weaker than a SNES+FX2 Chip, so a DOOM port would be impossible. Unless it was a Wolfenstein 3D port with DOOM's sprites, like many other "DOOM runs on everything" projects.

SNES Doom isn't a port, it's a from the ground up remake. A from the ground up remake is already feasible on the base Mega Drive, see my first post in this thread.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Individualised

[Rudolph]

15 hours ago, RataUnderground said:

Well, some Brazilians back in the day managed to sneak in an illegal version of Duke Nukem 3D xD. Quite impressive actually.

As a Sega Genesis game, is it actually worth checking out? Or should I rather stick to Zero Tolerance and Bloodshot?

[Individualised]

36 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

As a Sega Genesis game, is it actually worth checking out? Or should I rather stick to Zero Tolerance and Bloodshot?

It plays better than any other FPS on the system but it's short

[aboyes1989]

39 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

As a Sega Genesis game, is it actually worth checking out? Or should I rather stick to Zero Tolerance and Bloodshot?

 

 

Bloodshot. Ah I love that game. Great aesthetic and atmosphere.

[Rudolph]

1 hour ago, Individualised said:

It plays better than any other FPS on the system but it's short

Including Doom 32X Resurrection?

[Individualised]

16 minutes ago, Rudolph said:

Including Doom 32X Resurrection?

Not counting Super 32X given this current topic

Edited July 15, 2023 by Individualised

[FecalMystAche]

3 hours ago, Rudolph said:

As a Sega Genesis game, is it actually worth checking out? Or should I rather stick to Zero Tolerance and Bloodshot?

I do not recommend it personally. It is a very impressive “port” in the sense of what all they managed to cram in from Duke 3D. They even brought back the cut inventory item, the spacesuit. Otherwise, it is quite frustratingly hard and has mediocre level design. 

[TasAcri]

4 hours ago, Individualised said:

SNES Doom isn't a port, it's a from the ground up remake. A from the ground up remake is already feasible on the base Mega Drive, see my first post in this thread.

 

I guess. For me DOOM is the non-orthogonal rooms and complex level designs. That amazing engine was the biggest thing it brought to the table, tech wise, and made it so much better than anything else before it. DOOM's maps were interesting to explore because of it. A remake like this needs to reflect that to a degree. Simplifying the maps and geometry is unavoidable, sure, but not to the point where we throw everything away and use a Wolfenstein 3D type engine instead (like that Genesis Duke Nukem game).

 

The result needs to be something closer to the original DOOM than the original Wolfenstein 3D. The original maps need to be there in some form, for me to accept it as a DOOM game, personally. Which is why i hate the "DOOM runs on everything" meme, since a lot of the examples are games/engines closer to Wolfenstein 3D than DOOM.

Edited July 15, 2023 by TasAcri

[Individualised]

7 minutes ago, TasAcri said:

 

I guess. For me DOOM is the non-orthogonal rooms and complex level designs. That amazing engine was the biggest thing it brought to the table, tech wise, and made it so much better than anything else before it. A remake like this needs to reflect that to a degree. Simplifying the maps and geometry is unavoidable, sure, but not to the point where we throw everything away and use a Wolfenstein 3D type engine instead (like that Genesis Duke Nukem game).

As I showed Doom levels are already possible on the Mega Drive. You can even see the map editor for the engine here:

I'm not aware of any key missing features of this engine that would make Doom geometry (and I'm talking purely geometry here - things like line actions would only be something to care about if a conversion using this engine was actually developed) impossible to replicate in it. I imagine an automatic conversion could be done if this engine were to be used for such a project.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Individualised

[Azuris]

On 7/13/2023 at 8:44 PM, Marmiteman02 said:

It would have been cut down of course. But the extra space on the Disk could probably have run the game to some reasonable extent I presume ?

 

I guess the Drive Speed (1x) and the small RAM will still hinder a proper Port, if we just look at the Playstation, that has more Horse Power.

Either the Drive will be to slow to stream Stuff or the RAM to small to load everything in.