On abusing saving in doom

[Dreamskull]

Did you guys forget the name of the game or something? Its called Doom, not Saved.

 

In all seriousness though, we all went through this phase at some point. Its honestly whatever.

I try to limit myself as much as possible, but saving can be useful to ante up into good replayability just as much as the bad.

Just dont save scum. Put limits on yourself and youll find the benefits for yourself and for saving.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Dreamskull

[ReaperAA]

I would say, use save however you like.

 

Personally speaking, I like to use saves like checkpoints in more modern games. If I think or know a tough fight is coming, I will save before engaging it and then once when I have completed the fight. Avoid saving during the fight, since it is very likely that you might end up saving at a bad spot. Playing harder wads like this helps to develop skills (unlike savescumming ever few seconds) at a decent-ish pace, while also saving from the frustration of having to play the map from very beginning again if you die (in case of no saving at all).

 

Ironically, making saves like this and in different save slots is also a good way to practise being able to beat a tough map saveless if you eventually intend to do that. Having saves for each tough fight means you can practice them until you get consistent at them, without having to play the entire map before those tough fights.

[Zulk RS]

3 hours ago, Stroggman said:

A doomer told me I won't get good if I save a lot

 

Okay.

 

Do you enjoy playing with saves or do you actually want to start playing saveless? Because in all honesty, it IS possible to "Get good" doing either.

 

If you don't enjoy playing saveless, then what's the point of getting good at beating maps saveless? You can just hone your skills while also saving. I like playing with many saves. While I still suck when it comes to playing saveless pistol-start, I don't really care because that's not how I enjoy playing. But with saves and continuous play, I have gotten better at the game to where I can beat maps now that I couldn't in the past. So it is possible to get good while playing with saves.

[Stroggman]

I enjoy playing with saved yeah

[Beginner]

7 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

Play like this

<video>

Looks like me, except I save in new save slot every time my health or armor changes.

[Firedust]

Saven as often as you like.

 

However, if you want to improve, I recommend not saving during encounters or specific sections so you are forced to eventually figure out the strat required to beat them. Saving in between sections/encounters is fine, even speedrunners do so to practice parts they want to improve their time on.

[MS-06FZ Zaku II Kai]

Saving in Doom is like using continues in Arcade games. It is a means for you to practice the game and learn all there is to it from enemy paterns, level geometry, secret locations and so on.

After you learn all that there is to a given level or Megawad you can then try to play -nosave, similary to how seasoned fans of arcade games play games 1cc (1 credit clear, no continues if you die).

[Zulk RS]

4 hours ago, Stroggman said:

I enjoy playing with saved yeah

 

Then by all means, become the Save-scum god!

 

You CAN get better while still playing with saves.

 

[Mr Masker]

I don't get how people can play a whole map without saving.

I'd probably get like halfway through, die, and then immediately give up once I'm sent right back to the start. I just don't see it as being all that fun, power to those who do enjoy playing like that.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Mr Masker

[Plut]

1 hour ago, Mr Masker said:

I don't get how people can play a whole map without saving.

I'd probably get like halfway through, die, and then immediately give up once I'm sent right back to the start. I just don't see it as being all that fun, power to those who do enjoy playing like that.

Probably depends on what kind of person you are: for me playing with saves makes it not fun because I know that there'll be almost no consequences if I die, which makes me zone out and play poorly. Playing without saves raises the stakes, which makes me more engaged and alert while playing.

I also enjoy getting smashed hard in the face with a pipe until I get better. Which is why I love Dark Souls and very challenging Doom maps.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Plut

[Akagi666]

44 minutes ago, Plut said:

Probably depends on what kind of person you are: for me playing with saves makes it not fun because I know that there'll be almost no consequences if I die, which makes me zone out and play poorly. Playing without saves raises the stakes, which makes me more engaged and alert while playing.

I also enjoy getting smashed hard in the face with a pipe until I get better. Which is why I love Dark Souls and very challenging Doom maps.

I'm the same way. If I'm saving, why even try? Nothing I do matters, and any mistake can be undone. Why not just save everywhere? If you remove all challenge, it ceases to be a game and becomes a time waster. It's the same reason that credit feeding in arcade games isn't fun, it turns the game into a chore. There's no tension. The only reason I use saves is to practice. Yeah, it's frustrating dying when you're deep in a run, but it's more fun when you succeed, and the attempts have tension. Games with check point saves are one thing, but being able to quick save wherever you want is just too prone to abuse. I get zero satisfaction from beating a map with saves, it just feels like I cheated. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Akagi666

[QuaketallicA]

12 hours ago, Helm said:

"by taking a quicksave and elevating all that tension."

 

"why would you rob yourself of the thrill ride?"

 

 

Did you mean alleviate all that tension?

Sorry to be a grammar Nazi, probably a typo.

 

The way I see it, there's the thrill either way. All you rob yourself of is the potential punishment if you get unlucky and don't make it.

 

Saving literally exists so you don't have to suffer through a long and boring re-tread of things you've already done, just start back from before this latest challenge.

 

[QuaketallicA]

12 minutes ago, Akagi666 said:

I'm the same way. If I'm saving, why even try? Nothing I do matters, and any mistake can be undone. Why not just save everywhere? If you remove all challenge, it ceases to be a game and becomes a time waster. It's the same reason that credit feeding in arcade games isn't fun, it turns the game into a chore. There's no tension. The only reason I use saves is to practice. Yeah, it's frustrating dying when you're deep in a run, but it's more fun when you succeed, and the attempts have tension. Games with check point saves are one thing, but being able to quick save wherever you want is just too prone to abuse. I get zero satisfaction from beating a map with saves, it just feels like I cheated. 

 

I agree with you on Arcade games. The DOS version of original Mortal Kombat is so fun to play because it is humanly possible and a challenge to beat the entire ladder on the 5 credits given to you. You might win, or sometimes you might not. It makes it so much more satisfying when you do, as opposed to having unlimited continues where victory was inevitable. I get it.

 

However, I would contend that arcade games are typically quite short so you don't lose a ton of progress. They're from an era when space was limited so they compensated for shorter games, beatable in 1 sitting, by making each level challenging and having you restart on game overs. And when you do restart, you know now what to do so it goes by much faster.

 

Doom levels today are very complex and dying is more of a chore to re-do all that. If I forgot to save and tried to be ballsy by going no saves, and then I die, I'm more likely to say, "F it," and just quit then do it over.

[Akagi666]

2 minutes ago, QuaketallicA said:

 

I agree with you on Arcade games. The DOS version of original Mortal Kombat is so fun to play because it is humanly possible and a challenge to beat the entire ladder on the 5 credits given to you. You might win, or sometimes you might not. It makes it so much more satisfying when you do, as opposed to having unlimited continues where victory was inevitable. I get it.

 

However, I would contend that arcade games are typically quite short so you don't lose a ton of progress. They're from an era when space was limited so they compensated for shorter games, beatable in 1 sitting, by making each level challenging and having you restart on game overs. And when you do restart, you know now what to do so it goes by much faster.

 

Doom levels today are very complex and dying is more of a chore to re-do all that. If I forgot to save and tried to be ballsy by going no saves, and then I die, I'm more likely to say, "F it," and just quit then do it over.

Most Doom levels are like 5-30 min which is much shorter or about the same length of time it takes to 1cc an arcade game. I really don't see how it's different. You also learn by dying in Doom as well. Maybe we're playing different WADs, but it's rare for a map to last more than 30 min and even hour long ones are doable. 

[idbeholdME]

Nothing wrong with spamming saves, but load only when forced to, would be my advice. Never load for a better outcome.

 

And no, playing saveless is not some magic trick to getting better as most seem to think. I'd actually argue the opposite. Attempting scenarios that are giving you trouble is a way to get better, which is best done from a save right before that part. Not constant repetition of the same stuff over and over just because there is a problematic part 15 minutes later in the level.

[Akagi666]

4 minutes ago, idbeholdME said:

Nothing wrong with spamming saves, but load only when forced to, would be my advice. Never load for a better outcome.

 

And no, playing saveless is not some magic trick to getting better as most seem to think. I'd actually argue the opposite. Attempting scenarios that are giving you trouble is a way to get better, which is best done from a save right before that part. Not constant repetition of the same stuff over and over just because there is a problematic part 15 minutes later in the level.

You can practice the hard part with saves until you feel confident then do a saveless run, they are not mutually exclusive. Being able to do a fight once in isolation is not the same as having to do that same fight with the run on the line. The way to get better is practicing with saves and then doing a real run. Saves are an invaluable practice tool for sure, I agree there.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Akagi666

[FecalMystAche]

Blah blah blah, who the hell cares? Save when you want to or don’t save at all. Nobody should give a damn. 

[idbeholdME]

18 minutes ago, Akagi666 said:

Being able to do a fight once in isolation is not the same as having to do that same fight with the run on the line.

True, it is often harder. When you roll with the punches and can't redo the earlier part better because you save and have to win it with 25% health compared to just redoing the entire level and getting to that part in a better state. Not to mention you already know everything in the level up to the part where you died so doing it better on another run is a moot point.

 

Responsible use of saves in my continuous playthroughs improved my ability in the game way more than if I didn't use saves (or more specifically, loads), not to mention also elimimated the tedium that would come from replaying the same stuff constantly.

Edited August 2, 2023 by idbeholdME

[Plut]

27 minutes ago, QuaketallicA said:

 

Did you mean alleviate all that tension?

Sorry to be a grammar Nazi, probably a typo.

 

The way I see it, there's the thrill either way. All you rob yourself of is the potential punishment if you get unlucky and don't make it.

 

Saving literally exists so you don't have to suffer through a long and boring re-tread of things you've already done, just start back from before this latest challenge.

 

The assumption here is that the reason you die is not the things you did, but how lucky you got. The point in dying and trying again is to do things differently and get a different outcome, not through luck but through improved skill and strategy.
(Of course I'm not trying to prescribe how anyone should play here, just bouncing opinions).

[Stabbey]

My method for improving without abusing saving is pretty simple: never save mid-fight.

 

Starting an level over from the start when you're having trouble with a certain fight isn't always going to be helpful and it can be frustrating if you repeatedly die before getting back to the one which really is giving you trouble. So I think mid-level saves are fine. If you do not save during a fight, you're forced to figure out how to actually beat it instead of just save-scumming your way through it.

[Plut]

5 minutes ago, idbeholdME said:

True, it is often harder. When you roll with the punches and can't redo the earlier part better because you save and have to win it with 25% health compared to just redoing the entire level and getting to that part in a better state. Not to mention you already know everything in the level up to the part where you died so doing it better on another run is a moot point.

 

This improved my ability in the game way more than if I didn't use saves, not to mention elimimated the tedium that would come from replaying the same stuff constantly.

I think comparing a situation where another attempt takes you back only 20 seconds in your run to a situation where you have to restart the whole level doesn't make sense here: even a very bad player can survive a very difficult battle if they try 60 times, just by getting lucky. And if they do that with 5% health, does that make them a better player than someone who approaches that battle with 100% health and survives it the first time? No.

Also, AFAIK the overwhelming majority of highly skilled players and speedrunners usually play without saves (at least I haven't seen them write about playing with saves that much).

[idbeholdME]

20 minutes ago, Plut said:

I think comparing a situation where another attempt takes you back only 20 seconds in your run to a situation where you have to restart the whole level doesn't make sense here: even a very bad player can survive a very difficult battle if they try 60 times, just by getting lucky. And if they do that with 5% health, does that make them a better player than someone who approaches that battle with 100% health and survives it the first time? No.

What does taking you back more than 20 seconds achieve, that makes it so special and improves your skill so much more? That you can replay a level knowing where everything is and feel like you're doing better?

 

And yes, you throw yourself at a tough situation 60 times and figure out something that works. Be it perfect dodging, intitiating infighting or anything else. And that will stay with you into any future levels/WADs as a valuable experience and you will be able to get through much more stuff in the future in one go thanks to it. I just find playing with saves puts you into many more uncomfortable situations than always restarting fully, which is what ultimately makes you a better player.

Edited August 2, 2023 by idbeholdME

[baja blast rd.]

19 minutes ago, Plut said:

Also, AFAIK the overwhelming majority of highly skilled players and speedrunners usually play without saves (at least I haven't seen them write about playing with saves that much).

 

For what it's worth, this is the exact opposite of the truth. I hang out in the speedrunning Discords and streams a good amount (and am still a speedrunner, technically, even if I do it rarely these days). Saves and/or DSDA's rewind feature are the norm for casual play, for practice, and for routing -- basically everything but the runs. (I usually play maps with IDDQD for max routing.)

 

The only top speedrunner I know of who might not have used saves or some equivalent while routing was Nevanos when he was active. A couple of the top FDA-style players. DotW and koren, are the only ones who buck the trend (Decino uses saves off-video in maps hard enough to require practice). A real minority of the best 50-60 players are mostly saveless players. It's just so much less efficient to not use saves.

[Plut]

@baja blast rd. I'm not talking about figuring out the route or practicing fights for a demo - of course that's often more efficient with saves (although I still almost never use them, I just figure out a route in Doom Builder and start my attempts). But in casual play having a bigger punishment for dying better compels the player to try their best in each attempt.
"A real minority of the best 50-60 players are predominantly saveless players."
That's what I'm talking about. I doubt the likes of j4rio and Ancalagon got as good as they are by saving every 2 minutes.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Plut

[Meowgi]

14 hours ago, Murdoch said:

 

Do you think if you "abuse" saves the Game Police will come and arrest you?

Looks like they arrived

Edited August 2, 2023 by Meowgi

[baja blast rd.]

18 minutes ago, Plut said:

@baja blast rd. I'm not talking about figuring out the route or practicing fights for a demo - of course that's much more efficient with saves. But in casual play having a bigger punishment for dying better compels the player to try their best in each attempt.
"A real minority of the best 50-60 players are predominantly saveless players."
That's what I'm talking about. I doubt the likes of j4rio and Ancalagon got as good as they are by saving every 2 minutes.

 

"Every 2 minutes" isn't that frequent of a save rate. Saving between individual fights is the most common approach these days, and the average fight isn't longer than 2 minutes. 

 

But this post seems to have a misperception that the best players did their biggest improvement through casual play. The FDA-style elite player (DotW/Koren/Decino), which usually did, is much rarer than elite speedrunners and challenge maxers, which usually did not. Also relevant is that the best maxers/runners are even "better" at that than the best FDA-style players are at FDA-style play, partly because the running formats are more competitive. Most top players' skill development is done relative to runs, which includes practice for those. So what they do in casual play doesn't really matter much. You could literally savescum casual play 90% of the time, and quickly improve as long as you did some very serious practice and runs the rest of the time.

[Noiser]

1 hour ago, Plut said:

@baja blast rd. I'm not talking about figuring out the route or practicing fights for a demo - of course that's much more efficient with saves. But in casual play having a bigger punishment for dying better compels the player to try their best in each attempt.

I agree, it's a common psychological outcome and you get better by instinct. While you can, of course, pay attention to tactical resolutions by using saves, I think a good amount of casual players (myself included) will just let the RNG dice roll in their favor and not really improve as a result. I mean, to be fair, this IS relative to each one's approuch, but you certainly have to be on the right mood in order to concentrate without "the odds of risk" pushing you towards it.
 

1 hour ago, Meowgi said:

Looks like they arrived

I think we are just chatting in good fun! :-)

There's a difference between shaming\imposing a game style and the discussion of methods for those who wants to improve themselves. These can be interesting as long as we respect each other.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Noiser

[Plut]

@baja blast rd. You might very well actually be right about that, I was writing just from my personal experience and might've extrapolated it too much: I've done some pretty difficult UV-Max runs and the way I got good was mostly through casually playing difficult levels, then I applied my skill in demos. However, I haven't really recorded too much, and of course it's obvious that if someone plays with saves casually but records lots of difficult runs, they're also going to get really good.

[TheHambourgeois]

whatever you decide re: your saving habits, remember that this is a video game you are playing to have fun, and not a chore you are doing out of discipline

[magicsofa]

I think OP is looking for a guideline or rule for a reasonable amount of saving, so all these "Save whenever" or "don't save at all" responses are missing the point.

 

Maybe you could try setting a timer or just saving after you've been playing a map for what feels like a long enough time. Saving before picking a key or any other moment where you expect a big fight, is slightly "meta" and can definitely take away from the experience. Instead, try saving at points where you're not in danger, but have simply progressed through enough of a map that you don't want to repeat. I do this intuitively based on how much longer I think the map might be, but a timer could help you stay objective and avoid giving yourself too much of an advantage.