DURANGO: a Hispanic Deathmatch Megawad

[OpenRift]

I love how your answer to the sheer lack of quality control in this WAD is "Durango is a wad made for fun and doesn't take itself too seriously". Like, my guy, I'll open a door on a map and instead of it closing, the whole level collapses in on itself. I don't think even the early DWANGO WADs (1 and 2, which were terrible), had that kind of problem. Not to mention one of the maps didn't even have any ITEMS.

 

When I saw the title of this, I was actually kind of intrigued, but checking out just the first 10 levels, this is just embarrassing. I know that's kind of harsh, but I really think you should learn to use some resources and find more concrete inspiration instead of just saying "hey i want to do community project pls maek map for mi". You should spend some time actually playing some deathmatch WADs (especially from the DWANGO era) so you have a good understanding of what makes a good layout and level flow.

 

I'd suggest looking at Doomkid's deathmatch mapping video, as that can serve as good guidance for what makes for fun DM play: 

 

[Downcologo one]

6 minutes ago, OpenRift said:

I love how your answer to the sheer lack of quality control in this WAD is "Durango is a wad made for fun and doesn't take itself too seriously". Like, my guy, I'll open a door on a map and instead of it closing, the whole level collapses in on itself. I don't think even the early DWANGO WADs (1 and 2, which were terrible), had that kind of problem. Not to mention one of the maps didn't even have any ITEMS.

 

When I saw the title of this, I was actually kind of intrigued, but checking out just the first 10 levels, this is just embarrassing. I know that's kind of harsh, but I really think you should learn to use some resources and find more concrete inspiration instead of just saying "hey i want to do community project pls maek map for mi". You should spend some time actually playing some deathmatch WADs (especially from the DWANGO era) so you have a good understanding of what makes a good layout and level flow.

 

I'd suggest looking at Doomkid's deathmatch mapping video, as that can serve as good guidance for what makes for fun DM play: 

 

I said that at the beginning because of the mood of the wad, not because of the levels That thing about the door is kind of weird, really None of that ever happened to us playing it, something else that "I want to do a community project, please make a map for me" That never happened, people added to the project The WAD is made for zdaemon and Zandronum. I don't know if you tried it with that port. If you mean map 5 with the map without items, right? And another thing I recommend you see more maps than the first 10, there are other maps that are better than those, such as the map 17-24-21, among others. (sorry if any translation is wrong I use Google translator)

[OceanMadman]

9 hours ago, OpenRift said:

I love how your answer to the sheer lack of quality control in this WAD is "Durango is a wad made for fun and doesn't take itself too seriously". Like, my guy, I'll open a door on a map and instead of it closing, the whole level collapses in on itself. I don't think even the early DWANGO WADs (1 and 2, which were terrible), had that kind of problem. Not to mention one of the maps didn't even have any ITEMS.

 

When I saw the title of this, I was actually kind of intrigued, but checking out just the first 10 levels, this is just embarrassing. I know that's kind of harsh, but I really think you should learn to use some resources and find more concrete inspiration instead of just saying "hey i want to do community project pls maek map for mi". You should spend some time actually playing some deathmatch WADs (especially from the DWANGO era) so you have a good understanding of what makes a good layout and level flow.

 

I'd suggest looking at Doomkid's deathmatch mapping video, as that can serve as good guidance for what makes for fun DM play: 

 

We playtested the wad several times in zdaemon and zandronum and never came across the glitches you mentioned, so It's likely you were playing in a sourcerport we didn't try or you are playing in a nother cl. 

 

This isn't that much of a community project to be honest, sure, it was done by a bunch of different people, but it was never announced before in doomworld or anywhere else and everything was planned in an argentinian youtuber discord server. I believe this is also the first deathmach wad for which most of the mappers have worked for, so expecting masterpieces and maps with the greatest flow ever and the most beautiful detail and atmosphere makes no sense. They are now working on another deathmach wad now, and I believe it will be much more inspired than this one... you just have to start somewhere I guess. Actual advice would be more useful than just saying how embarrasing and terrible their maps are and linking some video by someone else. Also, saying they didn't care about quality makes no sense either, sure, the wad was made in a tongue-in-cheek way, but I think It's pretty clear they didn't just make 32 maps in a couple of hours, some effort was actually put into this. Even entire maps from the set were removed because they thought they weren't fun or that interesting. And the most fun part is that you didn't even try to play the maps in a server with some people or at least even tried to look at the entire mapset, It's just like playing the first few levels from doom 2 with no monsters and saying It's a terrible and ugly wad.

 

it's clear that they had fun making the wad, and I sure had fun helping to test it, and I think that's what matters. If you want to tell a bunch of inexperienced mappers how much they suck, good for you I guess.

Edited August 1, 2023 by OceanMadman

[Alt3000]

11 hours ago, OpenRift said:

I love how your answer to the sheer lack of quality control in this WAD is "Durango is a wad made for fun and doesn't take itself too seriously". Like, my guy, I'll open a door on a map and instead of it closing, the whole level collapses in on itself. I don't think even the early DWANGO WADs (1 and 2, which were terrible), had that kind of problem. Not to mention one of the maps didn't even have any ITEMS.

  

When I saw the title of this, I was actually kind of intrigued, but checking out just the first 10 levels, this is just embarrassing. I know that's kind of harsh, but I really think you should learn to use some resources and find more concrete inspiration instead of just saying "hey i want to do community project pls maek map for mi". You should spend some time actually playing some deathmatch WADs (especially from the DWANGO era) so you have a good understanding of what makes a good layout and level flow.

 

I'd suggest looking at Doomkid's deathmatch mapping video, as that can serve as good guidance for what makes for fun DM play: 

 

You tested it in ZDaemon or Zandronum?

[OpenRift]

5 hours ago, Alt3000 said:

You tested it in ZDaemon or Zandronum?

I tested it in Woof. These are vanilla-format maps. If you're going to make maps designed for ZDaemon and Zandronum, at least make them in a format that's DESIGNED for those ports and at least try to utilize the capabilities of them. Like I know the reason why the level collapses and it's such an amateurish error that honestly any mapper should understand how to fix it.

 

Even ignoring those issues, the maps are still painfully bland and mediocre with their use of textures, layout, and item placement. It's 2023, there's really no reason to make maps with such disregard for effective design unless you're afraid of effort.

[OceanMadman]

1 hour ago, OpenRift said:

If you're going to make maps designed for ZDaemon and Zandronum, at least make them in a format that's DESIGNED for those ports and at least try to utilize the capabilities of them.

That's right! and we should also add some bfg supershotgun replacement, an entire new texture pack, and John Romero to test the maps just because you say so!!! And why would you play a deathmach wad in Woof instead of zdaemon or zandronum or anything else designed for multiplayer anyway? and who the fuck said all maps were in vanilla?? 

 

1 hour ago, OpenRift said:

Even ignoring those issues, the maps are still painfully bland and mediocre with their use of textures, layout, and item placement. 

Sorry if I didn't explain myself properly, but I think I said pretty clearly that the wad is made mostly by people with no previous experience in making deathmach maps, and saying their work is shameful, mediocre, etc. will just discourage them to keep improving, doing so It's NOT ok. It's not so hard to understand. If you don't like it, just a) say what you don't like in a respectful way or b) don't say anything :)!

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by OceanMadman

[Downcologo one]

42 minutes ago, OpenRift said:

I tested it in Woof. These are vanilla-format maps. If you're going to make maps designed for ZDaemon and Zandronum, at least make them in a format that's DESIGNED for those ports and at least try to utilize the capabilities of them. Like I know the reason why the level collapses and it's such an amateurish error that honestly any mapper should understand how to fix it.

 

Even ignoring those issues, the maps are still painfully bland and mediocre with their use of textures, layout, and item placement. It's 2023, there's really no reason to make maps with such disregard for effective design unless you're afraid of effort.

They use boom format

[OpenRift]

2 hours ago, Downcologo one said:

They use boom format

Why would you not say that in the initial post then? Like do some research on modding. Even if you're a first timer, there's no reason not to do research.

[OpenRift]

2 hours ago, OceanMadman said:

That's right! and we should also add some bfg supershotgun replacement, an entire new texture pack, and John Romero to test the maps just because you say so!!!

My guy, literally just using UDMF format would've been enough. Don't give me that strawman crap. If this is how you're gonna make your argument, don't waste my time.

 

2 hours ago, OceanMadman said:

And why would you play a deathmach wad in Woof instead of zdaemon or zandronum or anything else designed for multiplayer anyway? and who the fuck said all maps were in vanilla??

First of all, I've run into countless maps that are "designed for Zandronum/ZDaemon/Odamex" but all the maps are just limit-removing vanilla. Second, I literally was able to boot up some of these maps in DOS.

 

2 hours ago, OceanMadman said:

Sorry if I didn't explain myself properly, but I think I said pretty clearly that the wad is made mostly by people with no previous experience in making deathmach maps, and saying their work is shameful, mediocre, etc. will just discourage them to keep improving, doing so It's NOT ok. It's not so hard to understand. If you don't like it, just a) say what you don't like in a respectful way or b) don't say anything :)!

I literally gave a resource for effective DM mapping. When you are new to Doom mapping, the LAST thing you wanna do is have only new people making maps without any external feedback till you're 32 maps in. The only time you should do that is when you have a team of mappers who know what they're doing. I think if this project was earlier in development and they began the project on Doomworld, there would've been plenty of room for feedback and improvement. But even then, like there's such little understanding of the medium of deathmatch maps here. Some research of existing mapsets certainly would've done this project good.

[OceanMadman]

18 minutes ago, OpenRift said:

My guy, literally just using UDMF format would've been enough. Don't give me that strawman crap. If this is how you're gonna make your argument, don't waste my time.

 

First of all, I've run into countless maps that are "designed for Zandronum/ZDaemon/Odamex" but all the maps are just limit-removing vanilla. Second, I literally was able to boot up some of these maps in DOS.

 

I literally gave a resource for effective DM mapping. When you are new to Doom mapping, the LAST thing you wanna do is have only new people making maps without any external feedback till you're 32 maps in. The only time you should do that is when you have a team of mappers who know what they're doing. I think if this project was earlier in development and they began the project on Doomworld, there would've been plenty of room for feedback and improvement. But even then, like there's such little understanding of the medium of deathmatch maps here. Some research of existing mapsets certainly would've done this project good.

Looks like I'll have to say it once again. The whole point of the argument is that if your ""advices"" weren't as toxic as calling the wad shameless, that there was no quality control, that it is mediocre etc. perhaps we would have taken your opinion more seriously, but instead you decided to say stuff like that to inexperienced mappers.

 

This argument isn't ending any time soon isn't it?

[Arsinikk]

4 hours ago, OpenRift said:

I tested it in Woof. These are vanilla-format maps. If you're going to make maps designed for ZDaemon and Zandronum, at least make them in a format that's DESIGNED for those ports and at least try to utilize the capabilities of them. Like I know the reason why the level collapses and it's such an amateurish error that honestly any mapper should understand how to fix it.

  

Even ignoring those issues, the maps are still painfully bland and mediocre with their use of textures, layout, and item placement. It's 2023, there's really no reason to make maps with such disregard for effective design unless you're afraid of effort.

Regardless of the quality of the mapset, I find your responses distasteful. I'm so glad to be part of a community where someone like you will tear someone's work down and discourage them from mapping again.

 

Maybe next time try and be more constructive with your criticisms.

 

Also there is absolutely no problem with a mapset not using advanced features, even though it was tested with more modern ZDoom based ports. Most players use those modern sourceports when playing multiplayer. Complaining that a mapset isn't using more advanced features is like complaining about someone buying a cheeseburger plain... they could add a bunch of other toppings, but they don't need to add those to enjoy it.

[Downcologo one]

12 minutes ago, Arsinikk said:

Regardless of the quality of the mapset, I find your responses distasteful. I'm so glad to be part of a community where someone like you will tear someone's work down and discourage them from mapping again.

 

Maybe next time try and be more constructive with your criticisms.

 

Also there is absolutely no problem with a mapset not using advanced features, even though it was tested with more modern ZDoom based ports. Most players use those modern sourceports when playing multiplayer. Complaining that a mapset isn't using more advanced features is like complaining about someone buying a cheeseburger plain... they could add a bunch of other toppings, but they don't need to add those to enjoy it.

The truth is that what annoys me is that I played it with a source port that wasn't it and also that I didn't even test it with bots or with real people while Durango is a wad which is updated if necessary, in fact the wad is always It was like this. I would really like to know what things you didn't like about the maps you played and if you want to give your opinion, play it with real people or with bots in ZDAEMON. (this is translated with google translator)

[Decay]

Openrift leads shitty projects and makes shitty maps. He has no grounds for critiquing this wad, especially specifically ignoring the intended sourceport that is right in the OP. Wilful ignorance at best, malicious dunking for cheap points at worst. You guys did great, keep making wads!

[Arrowhead]

@OpenRift

 

You do realize that testing a multiplayer map in Woof, is a bit unusual, no?

 

The first thing I think of when I think MP is 'Zdaemon, Zandronum and Odamex' - not saying there isn't room for DOSBox Doom, but you have to know that that's a very small portion of the MP community.

 

It seems very odd to me to try to load a MP mapset in Woof, and then be surprised when things aren't working the exact way they're supposed to.

 

If it works in the 3 main MP sourceports, who cares if it's vanilla or not?

 

Honestly, I've gotten along w/ you fairly easily since I've first spoken to you - I've got no issue w/ you personally, but it's just like  Arsinikk said - your responses have been a bit on the hostile side.

 

Seriously guys, don't give up - you'll only improve w/ time (not that these maps are terrible, btw) - please keep making maps. We NEED more DM and CTF mappers out there.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Arrowhead

[Downcologo one]

4 minutes ago, Decay said:

Openrift leads shitty projects and makes shitty maps. He has no grounds for critiquing this wad, especially specifically ignoring the intended sourceport that is right in the OP. Wilful ignorance at best, malicious dunking for cheap points at worst. You guys did great, keep making wads!

Of course we are going to continue making tacos
All the best

[Downcologo one]

2 minutes ago, Arrowhead said:

@OpenRift

 

You do realize that testing a multiplayer map in Woof, is a bit unusual, no?

 

The first thing I think of when I think MP is 'Zdaemon, Zandronum and Odamex' - not saying there isn't room for DOSBox Doom, but you have to know that that's a very small portion of the MP community.

 

It seems very odd to me to try to load a MP mapset in Woof, and then be surprised when things aren't working the exact way they're supposed to.

 

If it works in the 3 main MP sourceports, who cares if it's vanilla or not?

 

Honestly, I've gotten along w/ you fairly easily since I've first spoken to you - I've got no issue w/ you personally, but it's just like  Arsinikk said - your responses have been a bit on the hostile side.

 

Seriously guys, don't give up - you'll only improve w/ time - please keep making maps. We NEED more DM and CTF mappers out there.

The worst thing is that that error that says it does not happen or well, not with the latest downloadable version. Every error can be fixed because the wad is updated. Of course we are going to continue making maps for DM and not only for Doom but also for Heretic.

[OpenRift]

Look. I probably could've phrased my initial criticisms better, but frankly catching COVID this past weekend got me in a pretty shit mood, so that's why it came out as it did.

 

 

1 hour ago, Decay said:

Openrift leads shitty projects and makes shitty maps. He has no grounds for critiquing this wad, especially specifically ignoring the intended sourceport that is right in the OP. Wilful ignorance at best, malicious dunking for cheap points at worst. You guys did great, keep making wads!

You're one to talk.

 

1 hour ago, Arsinikk said:

Regardless of the quality of the mapset, I find your responses distasteful. I'm so glad to be part of a community where someone like you will tear someone's work down and discourage them from mapping again.

  

Maybe next time try and be more constructive with your criticisms.

 

Also there is absolutely no problem with a mapset not using advanced features, even though it was tested with more modern ZDoom based ports. Most players use those modern sourceports when playing multiplayer. Complaining that a mapset isn't using more advanced features is like complaining about someone buying a cheeseburger plain... they could add a bunch of other toppings, but they don't need to add those to enjoy it.

I linked a resource that can help in making DM maps in my initial post, so I was not doing this entirely in bad faith. I literally said that I was hoping it would be a good WAD going into it but was disappointed. I don't want to become some villain in your eyes over something stupid like this, because I watch your streams and I don't wanna have pointless beef.

 

2 minutes ago, Herr Dethnout said:

 Why you used Woof instead it Zdaemon or Zandronum as stated in the initial post?

 

I mean, is a valid question too.

I explained this in another reply.

[Downcologo one]

25 minutes ago, OpenRift said:

Look. I probably could've phrased my initial criticisms better, but frankly catching COVID this past weekend got me in a pretty shit mood, so that's why it came out as it did.

 

 

You're one to talk.

 

I linked a resource that can help in making DM maps in my initial post, so I was not doing this entirely in bad faith. I literally said that I was hoping it would be a good WAD going into it but was disappointed. I don't want to become some villain in your eyes over something stupid like this, because I watch your streams and I don't wanna have pointless beef.

 

I explained this in another reply.

Bueno como cerraron el hilo no se envió mi mensaje

La verdad es que hubiera preferido que hubieras dicho las cosas que estaban mal y que se podían mejorar Pero bueno. (google translator mistranslated the original message)

[fraggle]

This is a mess and I'd like to give my position here as a mod:

 

Here on Doomworld you're expected to be civil. That means not insulting other members and it also means that you shouldn't be tearing down other people's work. That doesn't mean that things can't be criticised but there's a big difference between constructive criticism and acting like a jerk. 

 

It's also not acceptable to break this rule because you saw someone else breaking it. "He started it" isn't a legitimate defence on the school playground, and isn't here either. You're expected to behave like an adult here. Use the report button, not the reply button.

 

Thank you and we now return you to your regular Dooming.